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To be fair, the MoE can Move 7, advance, and still charge. According to the combo which I may have gotten very wrong. But it says he can advance and charge same turn.

So if you put him on the front, Warp Time him, and hit him with everything else, he will slaughter some HQs first turn with luck...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
To be fair, the MoE can Move 7, advance, and still charge. According to the combo which I may have gotten very wrong. But it says he can advance and charge same turn.

So if you put him on the front, Warp Time him, and hit him with everything else, he will slaughter some HQs first turn with luck...

M6. GP is M7. You're unlikely to get him into combat with a character and advance and charge is not innate.

Really the only way to run him is in a transport.

He's talking about the MoE if given the Exalted Possession WL trait.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I think people are overly obsessed with jump packs, but I understand why.

The fact that people see Jump Packs as a enar mandatory HQ upgrades leads me to wonder if Jump[ packs are properly costed. But I suspect it's one of those "this is eaither good and utterly worth it, or too expensive to ever be worth it" options.

Yoyoyo wrote:
For those interested, check out Nick Nanavati's list for trying out the new Chaos.

Spoiler:

Doesn't look that much different from the usual Chaos soup. At least it has actual marines. But see here's the thing: Your competitive players don't care about things like which legion they play, or usually aren't attracted to a legion. They'll always pick whatever is the strongest, and the rest be damned. Which, while interesting from a "what works" standpoint, also gaks on the people who actually care about what legion they pick beyond "is it good". I'm sure Nick, although i've heard he's a nice guy, doesn't give a feth about the background or actually cares about Chaos, only what he thinks will do well in a tournament. So if someone doesn't like alpha legion, they're at a disadvantage because alpha legion is the "best".

Yoyoyo wrote:
For those interested, check out Nick Nanavati's list for trying out the new Chaos.

Spoiler:

That REALLY does not look different from the usual lists. WOO Noise Marines and Possessed...and that's it.

This really doesn't help you prove your point.

It will be interesting to see how he does. Seems like he just wants to stack negatives to hit on the possessed until they get to combat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This really doesn't help you prove your point.

I wasn't aware I was making one

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This really doesn't help you prove your point.

I wasn't aware I was making one

but it's the INTERNET! the entire point of it is for nerds to struggle in a fight for dominance so that one and ONLY one can emerge as "THE ONE WHO IS RIGHT!"

I'm thinking that Psychic Awakening 2: Heretic Boogaloo is going to give a boost to us Chaos players.

Unrelated- I've been having a blast playing "Servants of the Abyss" (painted as Alpha Legion) in small Combat Patrol games and Kill Team.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It will be interesting to see how he does. Seems like he just wants to stack negatives to hit on the possessed until they get to combat.

It's an interesting list, it's definitely leveraging all the Alpha Legion tricks.

Spend a CP, give the LD Clandestine, throw Benediction of Darkness on him, he's -3 to hit.
Throw MoP from the Poxbringers on the Possessed, make them -2 to hit.
Use Conceal, make sure the Nurglings are deployed betwen the Possessed and your enemy.
Have Ambush with the Noise Marines for additional deep strike protection, screen clearing.
Use the TS detachment for buffing and keeping the backfield clear, probably send one of the DPs forward. Warptime at 9", Diabolic Strength at 18", Prescience at 24".
Hope your opponent doesn't kill the Cultists you're hoping are ignored while they try to jump on objectives, maybe with Renascent Infiltration.

It's a gamble list, but it has some tools to deliver the package he wants to deliver. I'm just not sure how he deals with heavy armor. It could work, but it's janky as hell, lots of failure points.

The next hard part is thinking about how to replace the TSons detachment in that list and still get a good effect.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm thinking that Psychic Awakening 2: Heretic Boogaloo is going to give a boost to us Chaos players.

Unrelated- I've been having a blast playing "Servants of the Abyss" (painted as Alpha Legion) in small Combat Patrol games and Kill Team.

SOA are great in killteam imo, quite interesting.

Yoyoyo wrote:
The next hard part is thinking about how to replace the TSons detachment in that list and still get a good effect.

GW would have to give CSM DPs a boost first (or TS a point iThorne. ).

Personally I'd like to see marks do something again. At least more than the pittance for khorne.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It will be interesting to see how he does. Seems like he just wants to stack negatives to hit on the possessed until they get to combat.

It's an interesting list, it's definitely leveraging all the Alpha Legion tricks.

Spend a CP, give the LD Clandestine, throw Benediction of Darkness on him, he's -3 to hit.
Throw MoP from the Poxbringers on the Possessed, make them -2 to hit.
Use Conceal, make sure the Nurglings are deployed betwen the Possessed and your enemy.
Have Ambush with the Noise Marines for additional deep strike protection, screen clearing.
Use the TS detachment for buffing and keeping the backfield clear, probably send one of the DPs forward. Warptime at 9", Diabolic Strength at 18", Prescience at 24".
Hope your opponent doesn't kill the Cultists you're hoping are ignored while they try to jump on objectives, maybe with Renascent Infiltration.

It's a gamble list, but it has some tools to deliver the package he wants to deliver. I'm just not sure how he deals with heavy armor. It could work, but it's janky as hell, lots of failure points.

I think snipers are his bigger weakness. The apostle is the most reliable negative hit bonus as well as the softest target.

Disco lord stands out like a sore thumb, too.

A little over half that possessed can smoke a knight, but CP spend may be high.

 Psionara wrote:
Scrolling through the Chaos Space Marien Legion Tactics, they seem really weak and minimal in their capacity compared to the Space Marines Chapter Tactics.

Night Lords? Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3). Ohh, one whole Leadership point, assuming you're not ganking one unit.

Word Bearers? You can re-roll failed Morale tests for units with this trait. And Space Marines already have this automatically...

Alpha Legion? Your opponent must subtract 1 from hit rolls that target units with this trait if they are more than 12" away. Raven Guard get this plus +1 to cover, even out in the open.

I could note more, but I hope that you get the point that Chaos Legion Tactics are inferior to Space Marine Chapter Tactics. Does anyone else feel this way? By the way, I am not a Chaos Space Marine player, I merely compare and contrast rules in the hopes of balance. Chaos Space Marines get one, MAYBE two tactics, meanwhile Space Marines get 2-3. Thoughts?

Every faction traits sux compared to the new SM.

Marin wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
Scrolling through the Chaos Space Marien Legion Tactics, they seem really weak and minimal in their capacity compared to the Space Marines Chapter Tactics.

Night Lords? Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3). Ohh, one whole Leadership point, assuming you're not ganking one unit.

Word Bearers? You can re-roll failed Morale tests for units with this trait. And Space Marines already have this automatically...

Alpha Legion? Your opponent must subtract 1 from hit rolls that target units with this trait if they are more than 12" away. Raven Guard get this plus +1 to cover, even out in the open.

I could note more, but I hope that you get the point that Chaos Legion Tactics are inferior to Space Marine Chapter Tactics. Does anyone else feel this way? By the way, I am not a Chaos Space Marine player, I merely compare and contrast rules in the hopes of balance. Chaos Space Marines get one, MAYBE two tactics, meanwhile Space Marines get 2-3. Thoughts?

Every faction traits sux compared to the new SM.

I think they tried to balance things with better Stratagems, Relics and Traits which works for Necrons that usually use the worst Dynasty Code for all the other benefits of using that Dynasty. Orks have some really great Klan Kulturs, way overtuned compared to most Chapter Tactics, Genestealers as well. I think it's a bad idea to move more and more power to Chapter Tactics so I'm kind of happy they didn't go that route with CSM. The problem is Combat Doctrines which leaves the basic CSM a lot weaker and the bizarre choice not to let CSM use Legion Traits for their vehicles (other than for Dreadnoughts which are a bigger issue than any other vehicle in any case).

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I think snipers are his bigger weakness. The apostle is the most reliable negative hit bonus as well as the softest target.

Well, first off, this list isn't beating Marines of any flavor most likely, it's definitely not doing anything against RG. Also, I'd say the Heralds are the softest target, they're also something that you want to remove since they are the major damage amplifiers, between the Locus and Virulent Blessing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Disco lord stands out like a sore thumb, too.

He's probably going to be -3 to hit on the first round whether you win initiative or not. I actually think he'll be fairly durable. But that's also the problem, you're basically counting on the Disco Lord and the Possessed to do almost everything, with a little help from the two DPs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
A little over half that possessed can smoke a knight, but CP spend may be high.

The Disco Lord with Virulent Blessing and Diabolic Strength has a good chance of killing a knight on the charge also. The tricky decision I had looking at this list was Benediction of Darkness or Soultearer Portent, but probably BoD for the protection. SP/VB would have him doing double damage on a 5+ wound roll. But with MoP and Clandestine he's going to be -2 to hit in melee, -3 outside of 12" and obviously you could put BoD on him to bring him up to -2 melee/-3/-4 outside of 12".

However, I suspect he's moving the Heralds/DA up with the Possessed, get them up to Strength 6 and +1 damage on a wound roll of 6+. If you get SP, VB, and Veterans on them with the LoN, that's +3 to wound with 6+ doing +1D and 7+ doing double, so 3D each on a 4+ to wound and D3+1 attacks each on the charge.

It's got a lot of moving parts and you can't really afford to move things around too much in the list, but it's something. It's kind of a big Jenga list, pull out the wrong piece and the whole thing falls apart.

Thanks for that analysis. It will be interesting to see if he sticks with the list.

Yoyoyo wrote:
For those interested, check out Nick Nanavati's list for trying out the new Chaos.

Spoiler:

I pity him trying to play against that Eldar list.
Three planes AND three tanks AND two Wave Serpents.
Talk about unfun.

I don't think you're without options. You can infiltrate the Noise Marines into the Eldar backfield, fire twice, and wipe out the majority of their Infantry for 3CP.

Once the infantry is gone, the Eldar vehicles risk getting tied up by infantry or assaulted by the Daemon Princes if they want to compete for objectives. Meanwhile the TS characters are going to be sitting in the Possessed blob throwing out Smites to 24" away.

What are your options as the Eldar player? Do you want to shoot at the -3 to hit Possessed that are getting Warptimed into your tanks, or do you spend the 1-2 turns you have before making contact blowing away a few scattered Cultists and Nurglings?

The CSM list might not look overpowering on paper but it's following a gameplan that's been proven to work.

 dan2026 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
For those interested, check out Nick Nanavati's list for trying out the new Chaos.

Spoiler:

I pity him trying to play against that Eldar list.
Three planes AND three tanks AND two Wave Serpents.
Talk about unfun.

Well, i expect more CWE good list to go that route. PA did literally nothing for the fun aeldar units, so that is mostly what it`s good in the marine metta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
I don't think you're without options. You can infiltrate the Noise Marines into the Eldar backfield, fire twice, and wipe out the majority of their Infantry for 3CP.

Once the infantry is gone, the Eldar vehicles risk getting tied up by infantry or assaulted by the Daemon Princes if they want to compete for objectives. Meanwhile the TS characters are going to be sitting in the Possessed blob throwing out Smites to 24" away.

What are your options as the Eldar player? Do you want to shoot at the -3 to hit Possessed that are getting Warptimed into your tanks, or do you spend the 1-2 turns you have before making contact blowing away a few scattered Cultists and Nurglings?

The CSM list might not look overpowering on paper but it's following a gameplan that's been proven to work.

Well aeldar tanks fly, but that is rly only shooting list without any idea of melee. Is that game available somewhere or it`s payed ?

Marin wrote:
Well aeldar tanks fly, but that is rly only shooting list without any idea of melee. Is that game available somewhere or it`s payed ?

Here is the link but it's subscription-only, unfortunately.

https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2019/11/19/nick-nanavati-vs-jim-stanley-new-chaos-vs-aeldari-live-stream/

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
To be fair, the MoE can Move 7, advance, and still charge. According to the combo which I may have gotten very wrong. But it says he can advance and charge same turn.

So if you put him on the front, Warp Time him, and hit him with everything else, he will slaughter some HQs first turn with luck...

M6. GP is M7. You're unlikely to get him into combat with a character and advance and charge is not innate.

Really the only way to run him is in a transport.

M7 is with the Warlord trait that gives him +1 to S/M/A. so M7. 14" with advance, and a charge that can be re-rolled. It's not great, but a S10 6 Attack model that does Mortals on 6s with a re-roll, and that weird character targeting heroic intervention rule...

I mean I would be forced to take him seriously at least, which is more than I can say for a lot of the WB Units I've seen him play. It's not overwhelming knock my socks off oP, but it's good for the cost. I'm happy it exists, because he gets to do fun stuff like this now with his units that he never plays anymore because they mostly suck.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Marin wrote:
Well aeldar tanks fly, but that is rly only shooting list without any idea of melee. Is that game available somewhere or it`s payed ?

Here is the link but it's subscription-only, unfortunately.

https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2019/11/19/nick-nanavati-vs-jim-stanley-new-chaos-vs-aeldari-live-stream/

The price is really high for me.

So after playing a couple of test games I think Faith and Fury made CSM a lot better. I still lost my test game against ironhands marines, but it was a nasty list and I only barely lost. All the other games I won.

So I think that puts CSM in a pretty good spot. Slightly worse than marines (and maybe sisters of battle to), but better than most everyone else. Hopefully the rumors are wrong about chapter approved and CSM will get points drops there. With a few key drops this army might actually be able to fight SM on equal footing.

What about the renegade traits from the second Vigilus book? The Red Corsairs can advance and charge, as well get an extra CP with a large enough army.

Renegades are not legions

 Jidmah wrote:
Renegades are not legions

And shouldn't even be in the same Codex. Let the regular Vanilla codex handle Renegades like it should've from the beginning.

Two books for the same models? If you're not careful, you''ll end up with 10!

 Jidmah wrote:
Two books for the same models? If you're not careful, you''ll end up with 10!

There are allready though