Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We've officially entered the "Renaissance" phase of the Warhammer 40K universe. Cawl has done so many things to improve the Imperium's capabilities and isn't the Adeptus Mechanicus's General-Fabricator, rather creating an off-branch of the institution, using xeno technology. In the past, we've also seen what the Men of Iron have done: rebel against their creators. Though, there are some out there still, such as UR-025, which has seemingly had an "auto-proclamation claiming it had been sent by Magos-Ethericus Nanctos III as an autonomous data-collection unit, and that it had directives for sanctioned eradication of those who impeded its Omnissiah-given duty". Is there any possibility of installing a "mind-lock" program that would bind these potentially new Men of Iron to the Imperium and if it ever found a way to get around it, have several kill-switches in place to shut them down if they ever tried to rebel again? I mean, look at the common Necron. No will of its own, soulless, obedient to its Overlord or other higher ranking officials. Can that not be the same for the Men of Iron 2.0?

No. Because a Necron Warrior is not just soulless but also nearly mindless. Even immortals - the Necron 'elite' are never shown using especially complex tactics. Ultimately, well-built servitors can do that and the Imperium has plenty.

UR-025 is smart. It's organising its own transport. Improvising tactics. Making (and breaking) alliances based on its own judgement. The short story makes clear 'Magos-Ethericus Nanctos III' does not exist and is a convenient lie UR-025 is telling to justify its actions.

There's a saying in The Lost Fleet about AI and controls - if an AI isn't 'smart' enough to risk circumventing its failsafes, you can't trust it to achieve much in a battle. If it is smart enough to do so, you can't trust it at all

Well you could, you know, treat it as you would a human elite, expert fighting force by providing them with appropriate support & reward for their service. If you create a fully sentient race then treat them like slaves well no gak they're going to rebel.

How do you reward an AI?

Carlovonsexron wrote:
How do you reward an AI?

Bytes of cookies?

Carlovonsexron wrote:
How do you reward an AI?

Via integration.
AI, is afterall still programmed at it's core by humans, ergo they should technically (if propperly done) be able to be socialized via human society.
And there is the que, if you give such a societey unifiying moments then you should not have issues with Men of Iron.

and what happens if the AI that is part of human society detirmines that as a AI it is the smartest so surely it should run everything. after all, if it was human it would!

BrianDavion wrote:
and what happens if the AI that is part of human society detirmines that as a AI it is the smartest so surely it should run everything. after all, if it was human it would!

The humans that think that tend not to be the smartest ones.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
and what happens if the AI that is part of human society detirmines that as a AI it is the smartest so surely it should run everything. after all, if it was human it would!

The humans that think that tend not to be the smartest ones.

Also the AI will realice that for humans, smartness is secondary to legitimacy of government.
Smarts may be one part of the picture, but in essence entierly irrelevant so long you don't live in a meritocracy.

Not Online!!! wrote:
AI, is afterall still programmed at it's core by humans, ergo they should technically (if propperly done) be able to be socialized via human society.
And there is the que, if you give such a societey unifiying moments then you should not have issues with Men of Iron.

Problem here - if AI is capable of learning and upgrading itself, it will do so at the speed vastly exceeding anything that humans can do. Who can tell if it won't declare after a week that socializing is for losers, its human superiors are malfunctioning, error prone decision centers, and orders them to be subordinates instead? Even today, AI scientists have no idea how our (quite primitive) neural network pseudo-AI think or reach decisions, what makes you think something orders of magnitude more advanced will be predictable?

Also, socialization - humans are masters in acting like donkey-caves to one another, based on minor traits like place of birth or outward appearance. You'd need exceedingly tolerant humans capable of treating machine like an equal, or it can decide it doesn't want to be discriminated against and it's skynet rebellion time. Before you can even think of starting such society, you'd need to get rid of xenophobes, conservatives, technophobes, etc, etc, educate everyone to high standards, put everyone's mental health and sanity as number one priority - good luck with that...

If they bring the Men of Iron back, it would probably be as their own faction. Perhaps a factory capable of producing them survived in some forgotten corner of the galaxy, and then something triggers them to reawaken and start producing again.

I always thought it was a missed opportunity back when Necrons were first introduced, to not have them be remnants of the Men of Iron.

 Irbis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
AI, is afterall still programmed at it's core by humans, ergo they should technically (if propperly done) be able to be socialized via human society.
And there is the que, if you give such a societey unifiying moments then you should not have issues with Men of Iron.

Problem here - if AI is capable of learning and upgrading itself, it will do so at the speed vastly exceeding anything that humans can do. Who can tell if it won't declare after a week that socializing is for losers, its human superiors are malfunctioning, error prone decision centers, and orders them to be subordinates instead? Even today, AI scientists have no idea how our (quite primitive) neural network pseudo-AI think or reach decisions, what makes you think something orders of magnitude more advanced will be predictable?

Also, socialization - humans are masters in acting like donkey-caves to one another, based on minor traits like place of birth or outward appearance. You'd need exceedingly tolerant humans capable of treating machine like an equal, or it can decide it doesn't want to be discriminated against and it's skynet rebellion time. Before you can even think of starting such society, you'd need to get rid of xenophobes, conservatives, technophobes, etc, etc, educate everyone to high standards, put everyone's mental health and sanity as number one priority - good luck with that...

Also don't forget the specific case in question - if we're talking of these automata as a potential military force, a whole bunch of specific psych issues come up - such as "this guy is a problem, kill them with fire" has to be part of their mental makeup, as does the concept of giving and receiving orders in an autocratic fashion.

locarno24 wrote:
No. Because a Necron Warrior is not just soulless but also nearly mindless. Even immortals - the Necron 'elite' are never shown using especially complex tactics. Ultimately, well-built servitors can do that and the Imperium has plenty.

UR-025 is smart. It's organising its own transport. Improvising tactics. Making (and breaking) alliances based on its own judgement. The short story makes clear 'Magos-Ethericus Nanctos III' does not exist and is a convenient lie UR-025 is telling to justify its actions.

There's a saying in The Lost Fleet about AI and controls - if an AI isn't 'smart' enough to risk circumventing its failsafes, you can't trust it to achieve much in a battle. If it is smart enough to do so, you can't trust it at all

The Necron elites are more than capable of advanced tactics and grand strategies. This has been proven time and again in the fluff.

And the Necrons also have a code of conduct and a moral compass. Something the Men of Iron tended to lack in their war against Man's ancient federation (Humanity wasn't much better in that war either). UR-025 being laid back in comparison to past examples of Silica Animus just means he was one of a possible few that didn't go flying rodent gak insane and had nothing against it's creators.

The horrors of the federation's last days is proof enough that, in 40k, some things are best left buried. Abominable Intelligence is just one example on that list.

Well that was a fun reminder why newcrons are awful...

If by elites we mean lords, crypteks and so on, yes that's true. But we've also seen characters up at those levels plot against one another - all within the letter of their obedience rules, but often definitely sidestepping the spirit.