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Am I the only one that feels like certain xenos known for speed and agility are looking a bit sluggish these days?

Don't get me wrong. Some xenos are doing quite well as far as win rates, and non-xenos should certainly be allowed to have nice things, but...

* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

I'm really not opposed to marines having their shiny new toys or to frustrating mechanics being altered or removed, but aeldari (less so dark eldar) and tau do feel like they've lost some of the speed and agility they once had. Going "flatout" is basically a stratagem these days, and rarely worth the CP it would cost to use. "Jinking" is kind of a thing for aeldar, though it's an expensive strat that can only protect a single unit each phase. Hitting a skimmer in combat is now as easy as hitting a rhino. Jump Shoot Jump sort of kind of exists for aeldari and tau, but again, it's an expensive strat, and only being able to use it on a single unit means you're just choosing which units to sacrifice rather than feeling like you're controlling an agile army.

Am I the only one that feels this way? And if not, what sort of mechanics might bring bang the "feel" of mobility to these armies without bringing back the much hated rules of yesteryear?

In the vaccum vs space marines, yes its frustrating. But I think if you look at the overall game aside from the currently absurd poster boys, I think they're still considered really damn mobile.

Elder are still super mobile and even with Tau losing JSJ they are still very mobile for the most part(Stormsurge and broadsides excluded) the cold star commander can basically fly wherever it pleases and blast things on a 2+.

The Eldar bikes have a 16” movement which is pretty good & they fly, they can also advance and fire anything but heavy weapons as if they were stationary, they also get a 6” auto advance so they have effectively a 22” movement.

I think it might just be design choice of 8th to allow every Faction some choices in how they build an army. So, traditionally "slow" armies can field some quicker units, or armies that were CC centric have some shooting options. So, for the armies that were/are centered around a certain theme, it can seem like they're less "unique" than they were before.

Or, in other words, it's probably just perspective. The "fast" armies are still fast, but the inclusion of fast units in other Factions can make them seem less so.

Trust me. My Necrons are slow as dirt.

Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.

I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.

So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.

Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.

Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.

Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.

I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.

Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.

not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.

Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?

I mean if we'll go down this route DE bikes move 18" and auto advance 8" for 26" move. That's a significant amount of scooting in my opinion.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I mean if we'll go down this route DE bikes move 18" and auto advance 8" for 26" move. That's a significant amount of scooting in my opinion.

at this point I'm beginning to wonder if some of these upset Xenos players are just trolling

My DE, Quins, CWE, and sold off Tyranids all feel very fast, everyone of those 4 armies can get to you turn 1, can move easily multi units 25-40" a turn.

So no i don't feel sluggish


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I mean if we'll go down this route DE bikes move 18" and auto advance 8" for 26" move. That's a significant amount of scooting in my opinion.

at this point I'm beginning to wonder if some of these upset Xenos players are just trolling

Venoms, Starweaver, etc.. also move 16", base with a 6" advancement without rolling, Flawed Skull gets +3" for 19", Quins can advance, shoot, and charge for 22" movement base.
Sure, walking they only move 8" but... thats walking that should be slow lol.
Then you have units in nids (tho they are bad, but only b.c GW doesn't know how to balance them) Hive Crones and Harpies move 30'', they can literally turn 1 charge with 6 MC's without any special stratagems/rules.
All of Aeldari has ways to double move or increase movements s well.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Am I the only one that feels like certain xenos known for speed and agility are looking a bit sluggish these days?

Don't get me wrong. Some xenos are doing quite well as far as win rates, and non-xenos should certainly be allowed to have nice things, but...

* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

I'm really not opposed to marines having their shiny new toys or to frustrating mechanics being altered or removed, but aeldari (less so dark eldar) and tau do feel like they've lost some of the speed and agility they once had. Going "flatout" is basically a stratagem these days, and rarely worth the CP it would cost to use. "Jinking" is kind of a thing for aeldar, though it's an expensive strat that can only protect a single unit each phase. Hitting a skimmer in combat is now as easy as hitting a rhino. Jump Shoot Jump sort of kind of exists for aeldari and tau, but again, it's an expensive strat, and only being able to use it on a single unit means you're just choosing which units to sacrifice rather than feeling like you're controlling an agile army.

Am I the only one that feels this way? And if not, what sort of mechanics might bring bang the "feel" of mobility to these armies without bringing back the much hated rules of yesteryear?

No, not compared to armies other than Iron Hands.

And it's not really pure speed that's relevant, it's how you can use it and how much of your army is that fast.

Almost all armies have fast units as skirmishers and scouts, but not all armies have main battle tanks tanks that are move 14" and treat heavy weapons as Assault.

o

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Am I the only one that feels like certain xenos known for speed and agility are looking a bit sluggish these days?

Don't get me wrong. Some xenos are doing quite well as far as win rates, and non-xenos should certainly be allowed to have nice things, but...

* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

I'm really not opposed to marines having their shiny new toys or to frustrating mechanics being altered or removed, but aeldari (less so dark eldar) and tau do feel like they've lost some of the speed and agility they once had. Going "flatout" is basically a stratagem these days, and rarely worth the CP it would cost to use. "Jinking" is kind of a thing for aeldar, though it's an expensive strat that can only protect a single unit each phase. Hitting a skimmer in combat is now as easy as hitting a rhino. Jump Shoot Jump sort of kind of exists for aeldari and tau, but again, it's an expensive strat, and only being able to use it on a single unit means you're just choosing which units to sacrifice rather than feeling like you're controlling an agile army.

Am I the only one that feels this way? And if not, what sort of mechanics might bring bang the "feel" of mobility to these armies without bringing back the much hated rules of yesteryear?

No, not compared to armies other than Iron Hands.

And it's not really pure speed that's relevant, it's how you can use it and how much of your army is that fast.

Almost all armies have fast units as skirmishers and scouts, but not all armies have main battle tanks tanks that are move 14" and treat heavy weapons as Assault.

You mean like a Sicaran?

Just saying.

BrianDavion wrote:

Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.

I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.

So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.

That's the comparison I had in mind, yes. And yes, the wave serpent is the stronger unit (as it should be given that it costs half again as much). But my concern is for their relative mobility. Sure, the serpent has an extra 2" of movement, but 2" isn't enough to make the serpent feel significantly faster than the impulsor, and the impulsor's ability to disembark troops after moving arguably makes it even better at delivering short-ranged weapon teams than the serpent. (Craftworlders that don't flub an advance roll move a very comparable distance to units that get out of a moving impulsor, but again, the xenos feel like they're basically just breaking even on speed/mobility. Also, minor mostly irrelevant nitpick, but the serpent can't take two twin shuriken catapults. Just the one. )

I quite like the impulsor as a unit. I think it serves marines well, and it's interesting to choose between its main upgrades. I don't begrudge marines having it. It just feels like the boost in mobility some armies (including marines) got this edition has left the supposed mobility of other armies looking a bit lacklustre.

Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.

Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.

That's fair. Again, you've succesfully read my mind as I was mostly referring to Iron Hands. But still, when some rather popular subfactions of marines can ignore the to-hit penalties of heavy weapons while falcons and hammerheads can't, it feels odd.

Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.

I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.

Yeah. I'm not sure what exactly I'd give aeldari to make up for the hole left by initiative, but its absence is felt. Again, it's not so much that aeldari as a whole are doing poorly in melee, but this is another area where our superhuman speed was once represented and now isn't. A couple extra inches of movement really doesn't make up for no longer swinging first. Especially the turn after I launch my own charge and am thus exposed to any counter charges.

Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.

not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.

My mistake. I really though RG and/or WS had the ability to move after shooting as a strat. Again, I wouldn't begrudge marines for having access to something like this. It would be perfectly fluffy and reasonably powerful. But if they did have it, it would be another area where the gap that should exist between the mobility of certain xenos and imperials should exist but kind of doesn't.

Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?

I'm not sure, but the 2" difference between marine bikers and craftworld bikers is probably too little. It's not necessarily that I want to do one of the ridiculous, long-ranged turbo boosts of previous editions (they were arguably bad for the game as it made it too easy to jump on objectives without being near them at the start of the turn). However, knowing that I could do that in previous editions made me go, "Okay, yeah. Eldar vehicles that hit the gas really are faster than rhinos." Now, a serpent or devilfish at top speed is only slowly pulling ahead of a chimera doing the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I mean if we'll go down this route DE bikes move 18" and auto advance 8" for 26" move. That's a significant amount of scooting in my opinion.

at this point I'm beginning to wonder if some of these upset Xenos players are just trolling

Admittedly, dark eldar actually feel pretty significantly mobile compared to imperials. Reavers at top speed actually noticably outpace marine bikers, and the ability to shoot out of their speedy transports means your army as a whole actually feels quite mobile. Serpents and devilfish not so much, however, as their passengers can neither shoot out of the transport nor disembark after it moves.

If devilfish could drop off breachers after moving, or if a falcon could move and shoot without penalty, I don't think I'd have the concerns that I do.

Necrons would love transports that actually work.

Almost everyone wants better Transports. But, back to the topic, all the speedy folks are still speedy. I really don't know what else to say. 2" more movement is a pretty significant increase on a board that's only 48"x72"

 flandarz wrote:
Almost everyone wants better Transports. But, back to the topic, all the speedy folks are still speedy. I really don't know what else to say. 2" more movement is a pretty significant increase on a board that's only 48"x72"

It really depends on how you can use that speed, rather than the speed itself. when i play other games, i really notice 1 or 2 inch speed increases. I feel this may be more a design issue, With the simple systems making it harder to design around speeds as much as they probably should be.

It also does not help that transports themselves are kinda meh, with the game not really having as much use for them as i think it should.

This would also have the side effect of using that space better, as not all units would start on the table as often if they did design around it a bit better

regarding the wave serpant vs impulsor, it's worth stressing the impulsor is the Primaris LIGHT transport, while the wave serpant is a full fledged transport.

I don't know. Advancing 40" with my Coldstar Commander and then shooting feels pretty fast.
I always love to use the "Nothing personal kid" before vaporizing my enemy.

What we're seeing is yet another example of 8th edition running off the rails. Movement speeds and options are generally all too fast/mobile across the board, IMO. Combined with generally very long weapons ranges, tables feel much, much smaller now and the overall increase in speed has left traditionally mobile armies with much less room to show off that extra mobility. So now a unit might be 1-2" faster but that doesn't mean as much when you're talking about movements speeds of 14" or more.

Frankly i find it absurd that the change to disembarkation, in order to cut back on the alpha strike shenanigans from 7th, is once again ignored by a faction, just because.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Frankly i find it absurd that the change to disembarkation, in order to cut back on the alpha strike shenanigans from 7th, is once again ignored by a faction, just because.

The Primaris rhino costs nearly 1€ for 1point thats why.

Losing initiative certainly reduced one of the survival methods of eldar and nids - kill before you can be struck

I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."

 Galas wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Frankly i find it absurd that the change to disembarkation, in order to cut back on the alpha strike shenanigans from 7th, is once again ignored by a faction, just because.

The Primaris rhino costs nearly 1€ for 1point thats why.

Yeah, and people wonder why 3rd party alternatives get more popular or people in search of a better balanced game leave here.

Also Money = Pts value for units is slowed however consideirng that the suits do intervene indeed to sell stuff, i am not surprised, i do hope however that it get's the nerfbat

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

BrianDavion wrote:

Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.

I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.

So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.

Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.

Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.

Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.

I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.

Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.

not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.

Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?

I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."

Yeah, the points cost does matter, but IMO the Impulsor is actually very cheap.... Harlequins Starweaver is 99pts, sure its open top and have -1 and a 4++, its also 1/2 the wounds and less toughness with units that are just as costly (20pts with a weapon) for a 1 wound T3 with a 4+ save, unless its a melee weapon its only Str 3 no AP, so what its 4 attacks, str 3 no AP, no bonus to hit or to wound isnt good, sure you can have Fusion, but its just melta pistols, still not that worth wild when everything now has a 4++ at least vs shooting, cool you hit 3x, got 2 wounds, and 1 failed save for 1D6 damage... thats really good for 199pts..... Its not like other armies can have a 60" shooting unit for less than 200pts do more than D6 damage.. OH WAIT THEY CAN.

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

BrianDavion wrote:

Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.

I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.

So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.

Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.

Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.

Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.

I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.

Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.

not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.

Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?

I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."

except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.

I will say that as a tau player, the Custodes jetbikes were a nasty surprise the first time that I played against them. To be fair though, I had a Coldstar in my list too.

 carldooley wrote:
I will say that as a tau player, the Custodes jetbikes were a nasty surprise the first time that I played against them. To be fair though, I had a Coldstar in my list too.

I i9magine the custodes where a nasty suprise for the Tau in setting when they finally encountered some.

Doesn't everything move slowly compared to Imperial Guard - which is of course sooo bizare.

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

BrianDavion wrote:

Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.

I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.

So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.

Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.

Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.

Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.

I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.

Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.

not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.

Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?

I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."

except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.

Well considering that to answer a post about mobility their whole abilities had to be compared to be able to say "serpent wins", the point costs might have been added here too. But anyway, the post forgot about marines battle tanks when they are a big part of the issue since they ignore penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons. Sure they cost a lot. But it's all about capabilities you know

To answer the OP, while I don't think Eldars are that slow, they certainly feel slower than in previous editions between having to disembark at the start of the movement phase, having -1 to hit with your "fast" weapons platforms (tanks, jetbikes, etc) and not being able to zip to the other side of the board in one turn. But it's basically the result of the new edition.
And I agree, having a faction that have tools to ignore these penalties (and infiltrate/deep strike a lot) doesn't help feeling like you're playing the "fast" faction either but that's the downside of having your book towards the start of the edition, other factions get new toys and you get a mostly irrelevant rule like battle focus. Maybe if the codexes get updated at some point, the speedy feeling will be back (I doubt it though).

Slipspace wrote:
So now a unit might be 1-2" faster but that doesn't mean as much when you're talking about movements speeds of 14" or more.

I think this is a key point.

In Warmachine, for example, movement speeds range from 4-9" (with most units sitting at or around 6").

The key point is that because there's such a small range of movement you really feel the difference, even if it's just 1-2". A unit with M7" feels a great deal faster than a unit with M5".

However, in 40k, movement ranges from 4" to about 72". hence, when a "fast" infantry model moves 7 or 8" instead of 6", the difference is laughable small.


Anyway, as for Xenos feeling fast, I think it depends what you compare. Take Dark Eldar. They have transorts that are (for the most part) faster than Marine transports. They also have faster bikers.

However, once you get past the fast transports and bikers, DE really don't have much else. Dark Eldar HQs are M7-8", but since they have 0 mobility options they're easily outpaced by M12 Jump Pack HQs or M14 Biker HQs.

De likewise have 0 Elite choices with mobility options, 0 Troop choices with mobility options (outside of one guy who's basically just a mandatory attachment for Beast units) and their only fast Heavy Support choice is a vehicle.

Also, they have nothing resembling Battle Focus or Rising Crescendo so they can't shoot or charge after Advancing. And unlike certain Marines, they also have nothing that allows them to shoot after disembarking.

Anyway, in my experience, Dark Eldar feel fast only for as long as they're embarked. Once they disembark or their vehicles get destroyed, they don't feel any faster than other races, and frequently feel a good deal slower.