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To be fair DE don't NEED to be able to get out and shoot when all their transports have open topped.

Now I'd say they should be able to get out and charge but forfeit shooting in my opinion, or at least a stratagem.

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

BrianDavion wrote:

Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.

I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.

So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.

Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.

Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.

Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.

I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.

Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.

not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.

Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?

I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."

except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.

No dawg, things in this game have point costs for a reason, the question is ALWAYS capabilities for the cost.

Given that the impulsor is criminally cheap and seems to uniquely be able to do the job of transport vehicle (actually getting troop bodies down on the board onto objectives faster than walking/advancing them there) it's pretty freakin goofy to point out that a vehicle that costs nearly twice as much is *slightly* better at offense and slightly faster. End of the day, a wave serpent moves 2" faster, has basically identical defenses, and gets 2 extra heavy bolters for 60 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Doesn't everything move slowly compared to Imperial Guard - which is of course sooo bizare.

Yeah, currently the most mobile foot infantry in the game is Imperial Guardsmen and the most mobile mechanized infantry in the game is a space marine.

Suck it, speed freeks, genestealers, dark eldar, harlequins, emperor's children, craftworld eldar - Imperium Rules NPCs Sux!

 fraser1191 wrote:
To be fair DE don't NEED to be able to get out and shoot when all their transports have open topped.

Yeah, that's true.

I was just trying to bring across that they don't have any of the extra movement abilities that other fast factions get.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Now I'd say they should be able to get out and charge but forfeit shooting in my opinion, or at least a stratagem.

That would certainly be useful for a lot of our units.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Trust me. My Necrons are slow as dirt.

Which is your fault alone. Necrons can be plenty fast.

 p5freak wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Trust me. My Necrons are slow as dirt.

Which is your fault alone. Necrons can be plenty fast.

Thanks. Helpful feedback.

Our flying units (destroyers, scarabs) max out at 10 inches of movement if they want to contribute to combat, which is worse than most other faction's flying units (usually 12 inches). Slow.
Tomb Blades are tolerable at 14 inch movement for a jetbike, but no stratagems to advance and shoot without penalties, meaning you lose firepower if you do so.
Wraiths can be fast with the advance and charge strat, but again, thats with a strat, and unless you're running Nephrekh, is not a viable strategy to rely on. Meh.

Transports? What Transports?
Our Ghost Arks Border on unusable. Only able to fit minimum sized squads of our worse troop choice in them, or characters, and nothing else inside them due to transport capacity. They're not open topped. They cost 145 points. Only t6. Only 4+ armor, but have quantum shielding, and a middling amount of firepower.
Night Scythes are also over priced at 135 points. Laughably pitiful firepower. Can't disembark turn 1 from them. Everything inside them dies automatically unless you burn CP. Useless.
Monolith? Don't make me laugh. Can't disembark from it until turn 3 if the thing deep strikes. Costs almost the same as a knight galant, and is worse in every possible way. Has a great 6 inch move.

A couple niche teleportation things help mask the problem, but Necrons are slow as all hell when compared to everything else with a blanket 5 inch movement.
Deceiver Move? - Can't charge after.
Veil - 9 inch requirement. Space Marines can make that 12 inches.
Zandrehk/Oby combo? - Can get you close, unless you're playing vs primaris, or someone who doesn't screen. Both characters are expensive as sin, and lackluster.

You look at the state of this game currently and it's like

"So, which faction has the ability to deploy in hidden positions at the start of the game, setting up guaranteed turn 1 charges?"

"Genestealer Cult?"

"nope, Space Marines."

"who's got a fast, flying HQ with an aura that grants +2" to charge distance, improving the odds of charging out of deep strike by 30%?"

"Gotta be Dark Eldar or Harlequins"

"nope, Space Marines."

"Who's got the flying transport that moves 14", has an anti-charge aura ability, and drops off models after it moves."

"Sounds like a Tau thing. Maybe CWE."

"nope, Space Marines."

"Who's got the chapter tactic that's army-wide charge after advance or fall back, and then has a stratagem that gives them free melee attacks at a falling back enemy?"

"Definitely drukhari or Tyranids, right?"

"nope, space marines."

GW has dedicated enough design space to the damn marines at this point that they've been basically handed every conceivable army identity, and everyone else feels like a pale imitation of what marines can do. GSC? Ha, OUR infiltrators show up turn 1, AND they stop other people from deep striking within 12", so if you play your faction against us you can't do gak. Drukhari? Nice Advance and Charge trait nerd, mine lets me fall back and charge too AND my bikers ignore the penalty for advancing with assault weapons - bet you wish your Reavers and Hellions did that! Oh, you're making a little gunline with your Tau? Pfff, cute 30" rapid fire 1 pulse rifles, my imp fist intercessors get 2 shots at 30" range, an extra 2 AP and ignore cover. Playing a fast hovertank list with your Ulthwe eldar? Bet you wish your 6++ trait also gave you Heavy weapons that ignore moving and shooting, get a bonus -1AP, and reroll 1s to hit, haha!

the_scotsman wrote:
You look at the state of this game currently and it's like

"So, which faction has the ability to deploy in hidden positions at the start of the game, setting up guaranteed turn 1 charges?"

"Genestealer Cult?"

"nope, Space Marines."

"who's got a fast, flying HQ with an aura that grants +2" to charge distance, improving the odds of charging out of deep strike by 30%?"

"Gotta be Dark Eldar or Harlequins"

"nope, Space Marines."

"Who's got the flying transport that moves 14", has an anti-charge aura ability, and drops off models after it moves."

"Sounds like a Tau thing. Maybe CWE."

"nope, Space Marines."

"Who's got the chapter tactic that's army-wide charge after advance or fall back, and then has a stratagem that gives them free melee attacks at a falling back enemy?"

"Definitely drukhari or Tyranids, right?"

"nope, space marines."

GW has dedicated enough design space to the damn marines at this point that they've been basically handed every conceivable army identity, and everyone else feels like a pale imitation of what marines can do. GSC? Ha, OUR infiltrators show up turn 1, AND they stop other people from deep striking within 12", so if you play your faction against us you can't do gak. Drukhari? Nice Advance and Charge trait nerd, mine lets me fall back and charge too AND my bikers ignore the penalty for advancing with assault weapons - bet you wish your Reavers and Hellions did that! Oh, you're making a little gunline with your Tau? Pfff, cute 30" rapid fire 1 pulse rifles, my imp fist intercessors get 2 shots at 30" range, an extra 2 AP and ignore cover. Playing a fast hovertank list with your Ulthwe eldar? Bet you wish your 6++ trait also gave you Heavy weapons that ignore moving and shooting, get a bonus -1AP, and reroll 1s to hit, haha!

This is an issue, yes. I say that as a Space Marine player.

BrianDavion wrote:


except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.

Capabilies are linked to cost. Can't say does something shoot well or not without factoring cost. Otherwise you could say "6w and only d3 shots? Mek gun sucks! Stompa has t8 w40 and lot more guns!"

Only looking at stats without factoring cost is dishonest

Eldar and DE are really fast.

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.

Capabilies are linked to cost. Can't say does something shoot well or not without factoring cost. Otherwise you could say "6w and only d3 shots? Mek gun sucks! Stompa has t8 w40 and lot more guns!"

Only looking at stats without factoring cost is dishonest

Besides, Repulsors. Marines win either per-point or per-model here.

The Invictor is a Rhino-esque transport. It's foil is more the Raider than the Serpent. The Serpent is a full-fledged battletank. Probably the only tank in the game with a 5-star crash rating, and it pays points for that (whether it pays too much/too little could be debated, but it clearly pays). Primaris have Repulsors, if you want a tank with transport capacity. One of CWE's historical and conceptual weaknesses was that it's never had a light transport (which was great for the game until 8th made it irrelevant). Eldar lives are too valuable.

As for transport cap, it's hard to argue Guardians or most Aspect Warriors (especially those that can take transports) are in the same league, body-for-body, as Primaris. 6 Primaris slots are worth about 12 no-primaris slots as far as transport cap is concerned. So the Serpent doesn't really have an edge their, either.

CWE rules seem mostly fine, but its "fun" to take my superfast Banshees, then see them get outran/outcharged by Marines. Or my Dire Avengers and see them outmaneuvered by Marines. Or my Fire Dragons and see them outshot by Marines. Or Serpents and see them out-survived by Marines. Because codex creep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar and DE are really fast.

Yes. Our superfast MEQ-priced glass cannon melee units (Banshees) are 2" faster on the charge than White Scar's equivelents, with slightly more killiness than them against some targets! Because we're so fast.

And our Fire Dragons have a transport that moves a whole 2" more, and only pays a couple times more in points - with the only other drawback being they need to sit in their transport for an extra turn while their Marine counterparts are blasting.

And then there's the T2 deepstrikes we can use to show off how great we are at outplanning, outmaneuvering, and outflanking. Our super stealthy and super well planned ambushes can engage T2, whereas Marines have to wait until T1 to deepstrike.

We're so much faster.

Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.

Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull. Not to mention...quicken...

I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.

Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull.

I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).

Sure, lets not. CWE jetbikes can typically charge nearly as far as White Scar bikes!

Don't the eldar bikes move 2" faster?

Yes, most armies feel extremely slow when I play against them. Battlefocus + Assault weapons does the trick. Many armies are just gunlines and fall into gunline archetype, while I have to move my ass and attack and maneuvre around the table. Which is a lot more fun than just standing in the corner rolling dice.
I still find it odd that Wave Serpent is faster than a Raider.

And then Phoenix Rising gave us important stuff which was missing: ability to stack +charge on dice.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.

Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull. Not to mention...quicken...

I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).

Yeah, DE and CWE do not feel too slow to me. I play both. They feel too fast, but so does everything else about 8th edition 40k.

The specific thing that bugs me is that it seems like every fancy thing that every army (really, not just Xenos stuff, even other marines still stuck in old codexes or chaos marines) had, nu-marines now get to do but one tick better.

Sure, DE jetbikes can advance and charge basically guaranteed turn 1. White Scars bikers can do the exact same thing, AND fall back and charge when you don't kill what you charged and they opt to keep you stuck, AND move and shoot heavy/advance and shoot assault weapons.

At the end of the day, from a top level competitive standpoint, it doesn't matter that a guardsman can Move Move Move and leave a genestealer/Howling Banshee/jump pack space marine in the dust. It's just one of those things that makes you facepalm at the way this game was translated to the tabletop. And that's what I'm getting at here. Neither a white scars bike assault army nor a drukhari bike assault army is ever going to scratch some competitive iron hands/imp fists gunline bs at a competitive event. But they were so blatantly designed with different standards that it's still kind of irritating.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Don't the eldar bikes move 2" faster?

White Scars can advance and charge.

So can Saim-Hann.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Don't the eldar bikes move 2" faster?

Nah, there's a relic that gives you +1 to advance and +1 to charge rolls within 6", and they have a 1CP strat to roll 3d6 and take the two highest for their charge roll.

I assume since we're talking about the Eldar advancing and charging (which is a stratagem one unit can use) we're taking that kind of extra stuff into account for the WS as well.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.

Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull. Not to mention...quicken...

I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).

Yeah, DE and CWE do not feel too slow to me. I play both. They feel too fast, but so does everything else about 8th edition 40k.

The specific thing that bugs me is that it seems like every fancy thing that every army (really, not just Xenos stuff, even other marines still stuck in old codexes or chaos marines) had, nu-marines now get to do but one tick better.

Sure, DE jetbikes can advance and charge basically guaranteed turn 1. White Scars bikers can do the exact same thing, AND fall back and charge when you don't kill what you charged and they opt to keep you stuck, AND move and shoot heavy/advance and shoot assault weapons.

At the end of the day, from a top level competitive standpoint, it doesn't matter that a guardsman can Move Move Move and leave a genestealer/Howling Banshee/jump pack space marine in the dust. It's just one of those things that makes you facepalm at the way this game was translated to the tabletop. And that's what I'm getting at here. Neither a white scars bike assault army nor a drukhari bike assault army is ever going to scratch some competitive iron hands/imp fists gunline bs at a competitive event. But they were so blatantly designed with different standards that it's still kind of irritating.

I should clarify my complaint. CWE felt too fast. DE felt fast enough (and should be faster than CWE). My version of the complaint isn't that CWE are too slow (in fact, I think they're too fast). It's that Marines are too fast. Marines shouldn't be faster than CWE. They should be nowhere close to being as fast as DE.

That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.

"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.

Wyldhunt wrote:

* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

*Marines have had Land Speeders and Land Speeder Storms for quite a while, giving them a Fast Skimmer isn't outrageous. Giving the Impulsor the Assault Vehicle ability was a failure in both rules naming because it doesn't allow the unit to assault and rules writing because several other vehicles in the game probably deserve that ability as well from a thematic standpoint (all Drukhari vehicles, most Ork vehicles, Land Raiders probably also).
*I don't find it problematic that SM have a Chapter that ignores the movement penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons, Sautekh Necrons can do the same. If Craftworlds don't have a Trait that allows them to do this then that's too bad, I'm not familiar with everything they got or didn't get in PA1, it could have been a buff to Saim-Hann since it's currently very narrow in scope.
*Aeldari got +1 M, Necrons and Orks got -1 M I don't know how important Initiative was to Aeldar, my feeling is not very much because 7th didn't encourage melee outside of even more niche units and tactics than in 8th, Movement is a pretty important stat for both ranged and melee units. Move! Move! Move! being as OP as it is does undercut the mobility of Aeldar.
*Jump-shoot-jump has been replaced with falling back and shooting, a generally pretty powerful benefit, especially in an edition where you can charge in any direction as long as one model makes it to within 1" of a unit you charged and then you can pile into the closest enemy model instead of just ganging up in a clump around whatever you charged.
*Advance distances should be adjusted for a lot of units IMO, adding +1 to Advance rolls for each point of Movement you have over 9" would IMO be fair enough. So M18 jetbikes Advance 18"+18"-9"+D6", it creates problems with various abilities and buffs that allow units that aren't pointed for it to charge after advancing.

*Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!

*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.

*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!

Bharring wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.

Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull. Not to mention...quicken...

I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).

Yeah, DE and CWE do not feel too slow to me. I play both. They feel too fast, but so does everything else about 8th edition 40k.

The specific thing that bugs me is that it seems like every fancy thing that every army (really, not just Xenos stuff, even other marines still stuck in old codexes or chaos marines) had, nu-marines now get to do but one tick better.

Sure, DE jetbikes can advance and charge basically guaranteed turn 1. White Scars bikers can do the exact same thing, AND fall back and charge when you don't kill what you charged and they opt to keep you stuck, AND move and shoot heavy/advance and shoot assault weapons.

At the end of the day, from a top level competitive standpoint, it doesn't matter that a guardsman can Move Move Move and leave a genestealer/Howling Banshee/jump pack space marine in the dust. It's just one of those things that makes you facepalm at the way this game was translated to the tabletop. And that's what I'm getting at here. Neither a white scars bike assault army nor a drukhari bike assault army is ever going to scratch some competitive iron hands/imp fists gunline bs at a competitive event. But they were so blatantly designed with different standards that it's still kind of irritating.

I should clarify my complaint. CWE felt too fast. DE felt fast enough (and should be faster than CWE). My version of the complaint isn't that CWE are too slow (in fact, I think they're too fast). It's that Marines are too fast. Marines shouldn't be faster than CWE. They should be nowhere close to being as fast as DE.

That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.

"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.

Marines should be faster than gaurdsmen but they aren't. LOL. If you read the fluff a space marine should be about the same speed as a gardian. They aren't some standard inferior mon keigh. Also a jetbike should probably be about 100 times faster than an infantry - not 3 times. This game gets a lot wrong. When 8th was first coming out my friends and I were getting really excited.

I was excited that marines might finaly get a move stat of 7 or something. Nope. They basically changed none of the stats...Just AP.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
*Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!

*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.

*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!

I'm really bias as I don't like the white scars...Or special snow flake chapters for that matter. I find it hard to believe any chapters marines could really outperform another marine at the same task so hard. Marines in general are masters of all arts of war. To have such discrepancy between chapters is immersion breaking. I agree - the white scars are too fast. They should have the same speed as ultramarines bikers which is 14" - white scars should just have more bikes in their army. Like bikes should be troops for them...wouldn't that be so much better than the garbage rules we have now?

 Shadenuat wrote:
Yes, most armies feel extremely slow when I play against them. Battlefocus + Assault weapons does the trick. Many armies are just gunlines and fall into gunline archetype, while I have to move my ass and attack and maneuvre around the table. Which is a lot more fun than just standing in the corner rolling dice.
I still find it odd that Wave Serpent is faster than a Raider.

And then Phoenix Rising gave us important stuff which was missing: ability to stack +charge on dice.

Yeah I kinda feel like too many people take battle focus for granted.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
*Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!

*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.

*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!

I'm really bias as I don't like the white scars...Or special snow flake chapters for that matter. I find it hard to believe any chapters marines could really outperform another marine at the same task so hard. Marines in general are masters of all arts of war. To have such discrepancy between chapters is immersion breaking. I agree - the white scars are too fast. They should have the same speed as ultramarines bikers which is 14" - white scars should just have more bikes in their army. Like bikes should be troops for them...wouldn't that be so much better than the garbage rules we have now?

This is my primary gripe. White Scars should be better than UltraMarines at biking by about the same margin that a Marine who's seen a couple decades of combat experience should be better than a novice at firing a bolter. Better, but not enough for a rules difference.

*Expecially* for Marines.

Some chapters are more likely to deploy more bikers than others. But UM, RG, and WS Marines are all just about as good at shooting, chopping, sneaking, or biking. The difference should be in the units taken and strategies pursued, not in the unit rules themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Yes, most armies feel extremely slow when I play against them. Battlefocus + Assault weapons does the trick. Many armies are just gunlines and fall into gunline archetype, while I have to move my ass and attack and maneuvre around the table. Which is a lot more fun than just standing in the corner rolling dice.
I still find it odd that Wave Serpent is faster than a Raider.

And then Phoenix Rising gave us important stuff which was missing: ability to stack +charge on dice.

Yeah I kinda feel like too many people take battle focus for granted.

It's easy to forget about Battle Focus balancing things out when it doesn't, though. Guys piling out of an Invictus are still much faster than Aspect Warriors Battle Focus-ing forward out of a Serpent.

So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?

 fraser1191 wrote:
So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?

I don't quite know if this is a mad burn or not.

I mean yeah, if 8.5 Edition Marines is the new bar, then a lot of things need points reductions.

Really though I think a lot of just want a new codex with faction supplements that give us the same design space used for Marines. So yes, we can equally be good at X, and Y and Z.

I'm always for cheaper Serpents!

 Shadenuat wrote:
I'm always for cheaper Serpents!

I'm not. They crowd out the Falcon already!

I'm all for 9th edition.

Anyone want to place bets on which models get deleted from my army's ever-shrinking codex this time?

 fraser1191 wrote:
So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?

So those who wanted less bloat and special-casing in the fix for Marines should STFU about all the bloat and special casing for Marines?