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 vipoid wrote:
I'm all for 9th edition.

Anyone want to place bets on which models get deleted from my army's ever-shrinking codex this time?

I mean who really buys Finecast in this day and age....

Tyel wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I'm all for 9th edition.

Anyone want to place bets on which models get deleted from my army's ever-shrinking codex this time?

I mean who really buys Finecast in this day and age....

Archon,because de should just be wyches and sadistic nerds

Bharring wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?

So those who wanted less bloat and special-casing in the fix for Marines should STFU about all the bloat and special casing for Marines?

It's more or less an observation and statement that none of us have any control over GWs decisions. 40k is wildly unbalanced its been like this since the start of the edition. I figured we'd all be used to this by now

Bharring wrote:
*Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!

*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.

*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!

*If you're talking about Iron Hands or their successors why are you saying Marines?
*No, just Iron Hands. I'd prefer it be expressed only through Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics but I don't see a problem with select Marine chapters being more adept at mechanised mobile warfare than Eldar are in general. If Eldar don't have options for expressing such an army then that's a flaw in the design of Craftworlds not Marines wouldn't you say?
*Why do you say Marines when you mean White Scars? Saim-Hann can re-roll failed charge rolls and have a Stratagem for advancing and charging, White Scars having a Stratagem, WL trait and/or psychic power that improves the mobility of their bikes above the level of Iyanden Shining Spears is in no way problematic to me. I'd prefer it if nobody had Chapter Tactics or Super Doctrines and army theme instead had to be expressed through only getting to pick a very limited number of Stratagems from a shared pool, that would still allow for certain Marine lists to go faster than certain Craftworld lists if the Craftworld list was unwilling to take the same mobility-boosting options.

I fundamentally disagree that all Marine lists should be the same or that every Marine should have the same options as every other Marine, on the other hand I don't think the colour of your army should decide anything but your Relics and I don't think free rules are fair or the skewed access to Stratagems is fair and some armies still having no Chapter Tactics is wildly unfair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?

It's legit for some factions, I can think of a bazillion units whose rules are fine but just need pts adjustments. Problems with rules should come not from a balance standpoint but from a gameplay design or thematic standpoint. With the exception of WL traits and Relics, you have easy levers to balance Stratagems and units by simply lowering their cost. Some Marine units really did just need a pts reduction, Tacticals and Assault Marines I'd argue really did need Beta Bolters and Shock Assault, I don't think Combat Doctrines was really necessary and the army could have still become mid-top tier if they nerfed the right things in CA19. One unit in particular I'd love to just get a pts reduction is Warriors, 9 pts would let me bring a 60 of them for 120 pts cheaper, that'd be huge and make them so much more viable.

 vict0988 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
*Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!

*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.

*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!

*If you're talking about Iron Hands or their successors why are you saying Marines?
*No, just Iron Hands. I'd prefer it be expressed only through Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics but I don't see a problem with select Marine chapters being more adept at mechanised mobile warfare than Eldar are in general. If Eldar don't have options for expressing such an army then that's a flaw in the design of Craftworlds not Marines wouldn't you say?
*Why do you say Marines when you mean White Scars? Saim-Hann can re-roll failed charge rolls and have a Stratagem for advancing and charging, White Scars having a Stratagem, WL trait and/or psychic power that improves the mobility of their bikes above the level of Iyanden Shining Spears is in no way problematic to me. I'd prefer it if nobody had Chapter Tactics or Super Doctrines and army theme instead had to be expressed through only getting to pick a very limited number of Stratagems from a shared pool, that would still allow for certain Marine lists to go faster than certain Craftworld lists if the Craftworld list was unwilling to take the same mobility-boosting options.

I fundamentally disagree that all Marine lists should be the same or that every Marine should have the same options as every other Marine, on the other hand I don't think the colour of your army should decide anything but your Relics and I don't think free rules are fair or the skewed access to Stratagems is fair and some armies still having no Chapter Tactics is wildly unfair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?

It's legit for some factions, I can think of a bazillion units whose rules are fine but just need pts adjustments. Problems with rules should come not from a balance standpoint but from a gameplay design or thematic standpoint. With the exception of WL traits and Relics, you have easy levers to balance Stratagems and units by simply lowering their cost. Some Marine units really did just need a pts reduction, Tacticals and Assault Marines I'd argue really did need Beta Bolters and Shock Assault, I don't think Combat Doctrines was really necessary and the army could have still become mid-top tier if they nerfed the right things in CA19. One unit in particular I'd love to just get a pts reduction is Warriors, 9 pts would let me bring a 60 of them for 120 pts cheaper, that'd be huge and make them so much more viable.

even if you think marines should be the same they aren't and it's pretty silly to say that "Marines can do X and they can do Y" when a more accurate statement would be "Mariens can do X OR they can do Y"

I dunno, my Evil Sunz speed Freek buggies and bikes don't feel slow. Particularly when I use a kult of speed strat to give a unit double move, or when I move - shoot - move.

What they are is weak. The army is wiped by turn 2 or 3. So I suppose I pay for my speed.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I dunno, my Evil Sunz speed Freek buggies and bikes don't feel slow. Particularly when I use a kult of speed strat to give a unit double move, or when I move - shoot - move.

What they are is weak. The army is wiped by turn 2 or 3. So I suppose I pay for my speed.

No, its that 8th ed boosted core damage by 300-400% but didnt boost core defense, that why no one took tac marines for almost any reason.

Bharring wrote:
That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.

"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.

Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.

At this point, what should SM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?

* * *

Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.

 Dysartes wrote:

Bharring wrote:
That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.

"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.

Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.

At this point, what should SM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?

* * *

Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.

it's obvious man, Space Marines exist so that folks who are 40k veterns and know the real score can have easy games vs new scrubs who are playing with their stater box army!

 Dysartes wrote:

Bharring wrote:
That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.

"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.

Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.

At this point, what should SM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?

* * *

Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.

SM has always been the jack of all, a bit of better survivability with a better stat line and armor, then mix of assault and heavy weapons, better at shooting but with less shooting (more impactful, easy to hit guns) etc..

But 8th through all that out the window, now the MEQ stat is pointless, and bolters are not good anymore, where Lascannons used to be worth a damn, now if its not 3+ shots with mid ap and 2-3 damage its pointless, or if its not LOTS of str 5 wwith -1ap.

you make it sound like marines where durable before 8th.

BrianDavion wrote:
you make it sound like marines where durable before 8th.

IDK where you got that from... b.c i said

But 8th through all that out the window, now the MEQ stat is pointless

 Dysartes wrote:

Bharring wrote:
That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.

"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.

Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.

At this point, what should SM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?

* * *

Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.

Considering the Space Marine concept overall, marines should have the best mass deep strike with drop pods, be a "Jack of all trades but master of none" vis a vis melee/shooting/heavy weapons, and have highly armored medium infantry.

in an ideal world, other factions in the game could get something that they're the best at. currently, marines are the best at everything except for the things they literally have no models for, like light infantry and monstrous characters. There's only so many times I can watch an unpainted intercessor/repulsor gunline list pop a squat on some other army and sweep them off the table before I think this is going to kill any faction diversity in my playerbase.

 Dysartes wrote:

Bharring wrote:
That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.

"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.

Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.

Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider... But I might be overstating Marines.

At this point, what should SM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?

At out-Marine-ing. Which means outshooting Orkz, outchopping Tau, outmanuvering Necrons, outtrading DE, and outadapting CWE. Beating opponents by not playing on their terms.

Look at the Tac Marine. In theory, better melee stats than any shooty unit. Better firepower than any choppy unit. Ork boys ear their firepower. Tau face power armored fists to the face. Kab poison doesn't bring them down fast enough. Necron Warriors can't move fast enough. Access to cheap, effective transportation, or heavy reliable transportation. Can kit some for better anti- horde, elite, or vehicles. Melee and guns.

That's what Marines should be best at.

I'm glad Marines are strong. I'm not glad about how they did it.

 Dysartes wrote:
Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.

At this point, what should SM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?

As the saying goes, jack of all trades, master of none. They're supposed to be competent at everything with, at most, high survivability as their defining characteristic.

What I'd like to see is for Space Marines' experience and training to be their strong point, represented via C&C-oriented skills, making them more responsive and better able to react than an unwieldy force like the Guard. They should feel like a small, elite force that may not be able to win a straight-up fight against their more numerous or specialized adversaries, but have the operational flexibility to engage on terms that favor them.

Epic did that well, but I don't think 40K currently has the mechanics to model that, so they basically have to be just well-rounded at shooting, mobility, and durability. Being the jack of all trades and also, selectively, the master of whichever they want, feels wrong.

Bharring wrote:
Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider.

I don't understand what are you talking about, do you mean the Impulsor?

Kabs don't need to get out of Raider, and that is probably why it is tad slower than say a Serpent: so DE won't bring all the guns into rapid fire range easier.

 Shadenuat wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider.

I don't understand what are you talking about, do you mean the Impulsor?

Kabs don't need to get out of Raider, and that is probably why it is tad slower than say a Serpent: so DE won't bring all the guns into rapid fire range easier.

In a game with 24" no-man's land a flying vehicle with a 14" move (that can, given the right subfaction, be a 17" move) is going to get within rapid fire range of frontline troops turn 1.

Also, hell, we now give spess mehrines full rapid fire out to 30" on their guns if they castle up and infiltrators that show up during deployment, so I guess we are A-OK with everyone being able to just bring their full power turn 1 in 8th edition 40k.

8th edition can pretty much be simulated by writing out a unit's rules on a card, setting them down on the board, and just rolling dice against the other players' units to remove them. The board and models are at this point unnecessary expenses.

Well, that's how Dakka plays the game for the most part already.

 Dysartes wrote:


Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.

Eldar base speed during 2nd was 5". Banshees had 6", but Guardians, Scorpions, Avengers etc had 5".

Tyranids were base 6" move. Gants, Stealers, Warriors were all 6.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider.

I don't understand what are you talking about, do you mean the Impulsor?

Kabs don't need to get out of Raider, and that is probably why it is tad slower than say a Serpent: so DE won't bring all the guns into rapid fire range easier.

In a game with 24" no-man's land a flying vehicle with a 14" move (that can, given the right subfaction, be a 17" move) is going to get within rapid fire range of frontline troops turn 1.

Also, hell, we now give spess mehrines full rapid fire out to 30" on their guns if they castle up and infiltrators that show up during deployment, so I guess we are A-OK with everyone being able to just bring their full power turn 1 in 8th edition 40k.

8th edition can pretty much be simulated by writing out a unit's rules on a card, setting them down on the board, and just rolling dice against the other players' units to remove them. The board and models are at this point unnecessary expenses.

I've said beford with all the stackable buffs, and strategems, spells relics and warlord traits, as well as charcter specific re roll bubbles it really is more of a collectable card game than a war game.

Too many models. Terrain is largely irrelevant. There is so much fire power that with out good invul saves you just pick up any model they can draw line of sight to, or any model they can charge.


I play fun elfs (in spaaaaace), I live by speed. I would prefer to have usable cover rules to more speed. You can only target if you have a clear view of the hull. A third or more obstructed -1 to hit. Crossing to pieces of terain -2 to hit. Sails, banners, prows and weapons can not be shot.

That would make it a game of manuver as opposed to a drage race. But a game like that would need fewer units on the board to finish a game.

 vict0988 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

*Marines have had Land Speeders and Land Speeder Storms for quite a while, giving them a Fast Skimmer isn't outrageous. Giving the Impulsor the Assault Vehicle ability was a failure in both rules naming because it doesn't allow the unit to assault and rules writing because several other vehicles in the game probably deserve that ability as well from a thematic standpoint (all Drukhari vehicles, most Ork vehicles, Land Raiders probably also).

It's one thing for marines to have a fast skimmer gunboat. But when their fast skimmer gunboats are actively better at being that than their eldar and tau counterparts (granted, mostly only as Iron Hands), it feels a bit awkward. Similarly, being able to drop off troops after moving isn't an innately problematic ability, but it does seem odd that only marines have it.

It feels odd that marines are, in some ways, more "agile" than armies who are noted for supposedly being more maneuverable than imperial forces (including marines). It also kind of feels like even speedy marines should maybe possibly be noticably slower on the whole than factions whose "thing" is being fast and maneuverable.

"Oh tau and eldar? Yeah, they're pretty fast. They're like... tanky gorilla man on a motorcycle levels of fast."

*I don't find it problematic that SM have a Chapter that ignores the movement penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons, Sautekh Necrons can do the same. If Craftworlds don't have a Trait that allows them to do this then that's too bad, I'm not familiar with everything they got or didn't get in PA1, it could have been a buff to Saim-Hann since it's currently very narrow in scope.

We don't have such a trait, and that's a shame. It would absolutely make sense for Saim-Hann (if not all craftworld vehicles) to ignore the heavy weapon penalty. But we don't have that, and marines do, and that feels weird. It's one thing for marines to have a single gimmicky rule that makes them feel surprisingly agile, but the number of things they can do that supposedly faster xenos can't is sort of adding up at the moment.

Though again, my concern isn't just about marines; there used to be a lot of rules that represented how fast skimmer tech was and how agile jet pack units were. Now, most of those differences are gone, and the imperium's (nearly as fast) skimmers are becoming more prevalent. Mobility was part of the identity of several xenos factions. By shrinking the gap in mobility, you reduce that identity.

*Aeldari got +1 M, Necrons and Orks got -1 M I don't know how important Initiative was to Aeldar, my feeling is not very much because 7th didn't encourage melee outside of even more niche units and tactics than in 8th, Movement is a pretty important stat for both ranged and melee units. Move! Move! Move! being as OP as it is does undercut the mobility of Aeldar.

Initiative was a surprisingly big deal. Generally speaking, eldar initiative meant that most of the eldar army got to take their swings in melee before the enemy had a chance to make their own attacks. So even something pretty bad in melee like a dire avenger had a chance at reducing the enemy numbers before they could swing back. If you got into combat with, say, 20 eldar models, then you had at least 20 attacks coming your way before you got to start doing damage of your own.

Now, this was far from perfect and very frustrating for low initiative armies, but it was a significant advantage that aeldari have lost and not really gotten a replacement for.

Movement is a big deal in 8th, but the amount of extra movement craftworlders have over others isn't actually all that great. Movement 7" compared to 6" , for instance, only matters on those rare occassions that I needed exactly 1 extra inch to get into range. Our jetbikes can battlefocus 22" forward and then shoot 12" guns for a total threat range of 34", but that's soured a bit by marine bikers having effective threat range with their equivalent weapon (twin bolters) of 38".

Basically, it feels like Movement was meant to be the substitute for Initiative, but the extra eldar speed isn't enough for it to actually feel like an advantage. Especially when so many of our guns are short-ranged enough to require you leave yourself painfully exposed after using that speed.

*Jump-shoot-jump has been replaced with falling back and shooting, a generally pretty powerful benefit, especially in an edition where you can charge in any direction as long as one model makes it to within 1" of a unit you charged and then you can pile into the closest enemy model instead of just ganging up in a clump around whatever you charged.

Falling back and shooting is very powerful, but I don't think it's accurate to say that it has replaced jump-shoot-jump. Many units that couldn't JSJ can fall back and shoot. Also, jumping away from a unit that has already charged you and smacked you around a bit has a very different "feel" from a rule that lets you avoid harm in the first place. Falling back with Fly lets you feel like you're good at making escapes. JSJ let you feel like you were being cagey and using the terrain to stay safe.

*Advance distances should be adjusted for a lot of units IMO, adding +1 to Advance rolls for each point of Movement you have over 9" would IMO be fair enough. So M18 jetbikes Advance 18"+18"-9"+D6", it creates problems with various abilities and buffs that allow units that aren't pointed for it to charge after advancing.

I'd be okay with something like this. You could probably simplify it by adding a "charge" stat both for simplicity and to make it easier to adjust more dials on a unit's abilities.

BrianDavion wrote:

Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.

I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.

So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.

Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.

Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.

Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.

I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.

Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.

not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.

Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.

How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?

Rly, stop making forged analyze.

Price:
Impulsor - full arnament 107 pts
WS with 2 cannons(extra 8 pts) - 147 pts

38% cheaper clearly winner Impulsor. For 2 WS can get 3 Impulsors.

If you don`t upgrade

Capacity
Impulsor 6 + the abbility to drop after move
WS 12 - no abbilioty to drop after move

Clearly winner Impulsor. The abbility to drop after move is much stronger than the extra 6 capacity. Especially when it`s easier to get more vehicles because of the price.

Toughness
Impulsor -11 wounds for 107pts(even if you take the barrage) with 4++ its obvious that Impulsor is much tougher.
But that is 9.72 pts per wound

WS - 11 .3 pts per wound.

If you want some unit to go in Impulsor with 4++ will do it. Impulsor is also -2 to charge, what makes it even better at controlling the map and make it harder to get through.
More wounds per point.

Winner Impulsor

Headlss wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider.

I don't understand what are you talking about, do you mean the Impulsor?

Kabs don't need to get out of Raider, and that is probably why it is tad slower than say a Serpent: so DE won't bring all the guns into rapid fire range easier.

In a game with 24" no-man's land a flying vehicle with a 14" move (that can, given the right subfaction, be a 17" move) is going to get within rapid fire range of frontline troops turn 1.

Also, hell, we now give spess mehrines full rapid fire out to 30" on their guns if they castle up and infiltrators that show up during deployment, so I guess we are A-OK with everyone being able to just bring their full power turn 1 in 8th edition 40k.

8th edition can pretty much be simulated by writing out a unit's rules on a card, setting them down on the board, and just rolling dice against the other players' units to remove them. The board and models are at this point unnecessary expenses.

I've said beford with all the stackable buffs, and strategems, spells relics and warlord traits, as well as charcter specific re roll bubbles it really is more of a collectable card game than a war game.

Too many models. Terrain is largely irrelevant. There is so much fire power that with out good invul saves you just pick up any model they can draw line of sight to, or any model they can charge.


I play fun elfs (in spaaaaace), I live by speed. I would prefer to have usable cover rules to more speed. You can only target if you have a clear view of the hull. A third or more obstructed -1 to hit. Crossing to pieces of terain -2 to hit. Sails, banners, prows and weapons can not be shot.

That would make it a game of manuver as opposed to a drage race. But a game like that would need fewer units on the board to finish a game.

Have you tried playing cities of death then? It's slightly different (intervening terrain or models only conveys a -1 to hit, and there is a distinction between "soft terrain" and "Hard terrain' where pieces designated by the players as hard terrain convey a +2 to sv rather than +1) but basically gets the job done. I greatly prefer CoD rules to normal 40k for a satisfying smaller game that doesn't just have models getting blown away left and right.

I love cities of death. My local players with some of the rules now (Hard/Soft cover, intervening terrain, Lucky hits). Just not the road rules and height +1 to hit (b.c all top levels for us is hard cover so we dont want to double dip in rules).

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I love cities of death. My local players with some of the rules now (Hard/Soft cover, intervening terrain, Lucky hits). Just not the road rules and height +1 to hit (b.c all top levels for us is hard cover so we dont want to double dip in rules).

We kept the bonus AP for top floors but ruled all top floors are soft, not hard cover.

And yeah we don't use roads.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:


Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.

Eldar base speed during 2nd was 5". Banshees had 6", but Guardians, Scorpions, Avengers etc had 5".

Tyranids were base 6" move. Gants, Stealers, Warriors were all 6.

That's what I get for not double-checking my books before posting

General point - if the "default" speed is smaller, then any race with a higher speed is going to feel proportionally faster.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I love cities of death. My local players with some of the rules now (Hard/Soft cover, intervening terrain, Lucky hits). Just not the road rules and height +1 to hit (b.c all top levels for us is hard cover so we dont want to double dip in rules).

We kept the bonus AP for top floors but ruled all top floors are soft, not hard cover.

And yeah we don't use roads.

Thats a good idea, might talk to them about that.

I kinda wish they'd make the cities of death the default rules to be honest.

kingheff wrote:
I kinda wish they'd make the cities of death the default rules to be honest.

There's a lot to be said for it.

I don't feel my Tau are slow. I do feel the design of the Codex and loss of JSJ Really hurts the Ghostkeel and Crisis suits which pushed us towards a more gunline style. Also yes the Coldstar is insanely mobile to use that mobility to its fullest it's often on its own.