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2019/11/18 19:53:07
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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With the new release of the Black Templar rules in PA it is RAW that the Black Templars have access to everything the IF do from that supplement and their own rules found in PA. My first thought is that of course it is an oversight that they get both, but upon further inspection perhaps it is intentional? Without combining both they are (IMO) one of the weakest if not the weakest looking flavor of codex space marines by a noticeable margin. They have a weak chapter tactic, a weak super doctrine and fewer stratagems than all the others. If you give them both they go from zeros to possibly heroes up there with actual IF. I think them having access to both supplements would bring them up to the better marine chapters, but not supersede them due to how tame their own rules are. What do you guys think?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/18 19:55:36
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2019/11/18 20:05:42
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader
Bamberg / Erlangen
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Yes, but only some.
If they stand only on their own, they are missing out on some standard Stratagems that every codex supplement had. For example the one to pick a second Warlord trait for the same guy.
It would feel wrong that BT do not get it. At the same time, it feels wrong as well that they would get two super doctrines.
I disagree that they have a weak chapter tactic. For a melee focused army this is as good as it gets (maybe switch Warded out for Master Artisan or Hungry for Battle...)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/18 20:07:05
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2019/11/19 08:40:47
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Assuming, A) all other later founding chapters including Crimson Fists retain equivalent access, B) they don't get a full supplement level ruleset: yes they should absolutely retain access to the Imperial Fist supplement.
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2019/11/19 08:46:53
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I guess they will retain the same access to IF stuff as crimson fists and every other successor chapter and there respective parent chapter.
No reason they should not, but I am expecting a tsunami of froth from the Wahhhhhhhhhg and the Veterans of the long whine.
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Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis |
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2019/11/19 08:52:33
Subject: Re:Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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they've got their own supplemental material so they proably shouldn't. how many stratigiums do they have?
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2019/11/19 09:05:19
Subject: Re:Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BrianDavion wrote:they've got their own supplemental material so they proably shouldn't. how many stratigiums do they have?
Less then the founding chapters and the ones there missing are the genericish ones that they would gain access to from IF like give 2wl traits and the like from what I have seen.
I don’t expect or want bollocks like 2 super doctrines but access to the generic relics,strats and such like the same as any others successor that was in a supplement seems intended.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/19 09:07:24
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis |
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2019/11/19 10:52:16
Subject: Re:Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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SeanDrake wrote:BrianDavion wrote:they've got their own supplemental material so they proably shouldn't. how many stratigiums do they have?
Less then the founding chapters and the ones there missing are the genericish ones that they would gain access to from IF like give 2wl traits and the like from what I have seen.
I don’t expect or want bollocks like 2 super doctrines but access to the generic relics,strats and such like the same as any others successor that was in a supplement seems intended.
something to ask GW to issue a FAQ for, in stuff like this I tend to assume until told otherwise the answer is "OF COURSE NOT!" that way if the answer is otherwise I'm pleasently suprised with a buff.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2019/11/19 10:58:58
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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[DCM]
Procrastinator extraordinaire
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Honestly if it got kept it wouldn't surprise me based on the want for more Space Marines seeing play.
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2019/11/19 11:05:14
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Having not picked up the IF supplement, how are the Crimson Fists treated within it?
I'd certainly not want BT to get access to the psychic power discipline, for obvious reasons 
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2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG
My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 Kanluwen wrote:This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote:You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... |
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2019/11/19 11:07:11
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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 Dysartes wrote:Having not picked up the IF supplement, how are the Crimson Fists treated within it?
I'd certainly not want BT to get access to the psychic power discipline, for obvious reasons
well technicly the black templars have access to all the psykic disiplines all vanilla marines do..
they just don't have access to Librarians 
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2019/11/19 12:21:58
Subject: Re:Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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It'd certainly be strange if BT don't get any special issue wargear access while everyone else does.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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2019/11/19 18:10:42
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Wait, people actually have their copies of Faith and Fury already? Didn't that go on pre-order like 3 days ago?
Unrelated, I do think it's funny that they're gushing about buffing a unit that's using the "charge after disembarking from a Crusader" strat with a Chaplain, which we all know you can't do as-written.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/19 18:15:34
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2019/11/19 18:14:55
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Gargantuan Gargant
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The Newman wrote:Wait, people actually have their copies of Faith and Fury already? Didn't that go on pre-order like 3 days ago?
All the rules are out now that the NDA for it is over for people who receive advance copies.
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2019/11/19 18:34:24
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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So how are the crimson fists rules described? I haven't seen the book.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2019/11/19 19:09:41
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Standard successor chapter gig with the exception that they get all their own stratagems and relics in addition to what the IF have. The Black Templars RAW currently have that on steroids with having two super doctrines, more stratagems, more warlord traits and more relics.
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2019/11/19 19:26:00
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Standard successor chapter gig with the exception that they get all their own stratagems and relics in addition to what the IF have. The Black Templars RAW currently have that on steroids with having two super doctrines, more stratagems, more warlord traits and more relics.
Templars do *not* get access to the IF super-doctrine, nor any IF relics. The <BLACK TEMPLAR> keyword is not compatible with <CHAPTER> needed to declare themselves as a successor of the IFs. If you try this, you're both wrong, and deserving of the "feth you" your opponent gives you.
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2019/11/19 19:36:42
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sterling191 wrote: Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Standard successor chapter gig with the exception that they get all their own stratagems and relics in addition to what the IF have. The Black Templars RAW currently have that on steroids with having two super doctrines, more stratagems, more warlord traits and more relics.
Templars do *not* get access to the IF super-doctrine, nor any IF relics. The <BLACK TEMPLAR> keyword is not compatible with <CHAPTER> needed to declare themselves as a successor of the IFs. If you try this, you're both wrong, and deserving of the "feth you" your opponent gives you.
The IF supplement goes over how successors work and how they replace their successor keyword with the Imperial Fist keyword for the purposes of stratagems, doctrines and the like. The Black Templar are a IF successor chapter and as such meet as many of the qualifications to access IF relics, stratagems and super doctrines as the Crimson Fists do. There is no RAW difference between how the Crimson Fists and Black Templars interact with the the IF rules. And let me be clear I am not saying I condone playing it that way to double dip nor am I against it. I am just observing the legal RAW and getting opinions on the matter.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/19 19:37:04
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2019/11/19 19:40:37
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The IF supplement goes over how successors work and how they replace their successor keyword with the Imperial Fist keyword for the purposes of stratagems, doctrines and the like. The Black Templar are a IF successor chapter and as such meet as many of the qualifications to access IF relics, stratagems and super doctrines as the Crimson Fists do. There is no RAW difference between how the Crimson Fists and Black Templars interact with the the IF rules. And let me be clear I am not saying I condone playing it that way to double dip nor am I against it. I am just observing the legal RAW and getting opinions on the matter.
Incorrect. The Imperial Fists supplement requires the <CHAPTER> keyword to declare as a successor chapter. Black Templars do not have the <CHAPTER> keyword, nor do their rules allow for substituting <CHAPTER> for <BLACK TEMPLARS>. Crimson Fists are also not treated as a successor chapter, but a separate exception that allows them to utilize parts of the IF codex supplement. Furthermore, the Templar rules in PA explicitly call themselves a supplement to the base Marine Codex, not a supplement to the Imperial Fists supplement. There is no rules permission to utilize the latter ruleset as a Templar army.
Templars do not double dip on rules, and anyone who attempts to do so is excruciatingly wrong.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/11/19 19:44:50
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2019/11/19 19:41:24
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon
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No; none of it.
They may share the same gene-seed, but that's where the similarities end.
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2019/11/19 19:48:54
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sterling191 wrote: Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The IF supplement goes over how successors work and how they replace their successor keyword with the Imperial Fist keyword for the purposes of stratagems, doctrines and the like. The Black Templar are a IF successor chapter and as such meet as many of the qualifications to access IF relics, stratagems and super doctrines as the Crimson Fists do. There is no RAW difference between how the Crimson Fists and Black Templars interact with the the IF rules. And let me be clear I am not saying I condone playing it that way to double dip nor am I against it. I am just observing the legal RAW and getting opinions on the matter.
Incorrect. The Imperial Fists supplement requires the <CHAPTER> keyword to declare as a successor chapter. Black Templars do not have the <CHAPTER> keyword, nor do their rules allow for substituting <CHAPTER> for <BLACK TEMPLARS>. Crimson Fists are also not treated as a successor chapter, but a separate exception that allows them to utilize parts of the IF codex supplement. Furthermore, the Templar rules in PA explicitly call themselves a supplement to the base Marine Codex, not a supplement to the Imperial Fists supplement. There is no rules permission to utilize the latter ruleset as a Templar army.
Templars do not double dip on rules, and anyone who attempts to do so is excruciatingly wrong.
Going to copy/paste the breakdown I saw on reddit that alerted me to this in the first place.
Black Templars are a successor chapter, as they aren't Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, or White Scars (and aren't Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or Space Wolves who use different books entirely).
All successor chapters must declare a parent chapter, and if they have one known in the background of the books they must use that chapter - Black Templars are described in Codex: Space Marines as an Imperial Fist successor.
The Imperial Fists supplement allows an IF successor to use their doctrine, traits, stratagems, etc. There are some specific exceptions around warlord traits made for Crimson Fists, and there's specific wording that all Imperial Fist successor chapters are counted as having the Imperial Fists keyword for those rules.
Given the above, there would need to be a specific exception like Crimson Fists have with warlord traits to prohibit Black Templars from using the doctrine or anything else in the supplement. I think it entirely likely that will happen in a FAQ (at least for the doctrine), but until it does this is pretty clear in the rules."
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2019/11/19 19:52:43
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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That post is hilariously wrong. It's referring to what unnamed successor chapters must do when using the "Inheritors of the Primarch" successor trait.
Furthermore, I'm looking at the page in the IF supplement right now. It explicitly states that only <CHAPTER> Space Marine armies can declare themselves Imperial Fists successors. For the purposes of that supplement, Crimson Fists and Black Templars are *not* considered succesor chapters.
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2019/11/19 19:58:41
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sterling191 wrote:That post is hilariously wrong. It's referring to what unnamed successor chapters must do when using the "Inheritors of the Primarch" successor trait.
Furthermore, I'm looking at the page in the IF supplement right now. It explicitly states that only <CHAPTER> Space Marine armies can declare themselves Imperial Fists successors. For the purposes of that supplement, Crimson Fists and Black Templars are *not* considered succesor chapters.
Can you please provide the exact wording on how that works and the rules rules given to the Crimson Fists that make them not a successor chapter? I do not own the book so I cannot accurately argue the case myself without reading all of the wording in regards to the topic. All the sources I have seen talk about it this with direct access to the IF supplement are saying it is the RAW and they may all be wrong and you may be right, but I can't definitively say either way without reading it myself.
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2019/11/20 14:00:28
Subject: Re:Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I have no idea what Sterling191 thinks he is reading. There's nothing to indicate that Crimson Fists or Black Templars aren't a successor chapter. In fact:
page 56 wrote:If the successor Chapter you have chosen is one established in the background of our publications, it's founding Chapter will often be known (for example, the Crimson Fists are a known successor of the Imperial Fists).
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2019/11/20 15:04:13
Subject: Re:Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Yep, that rule is explicitly telling us that the fluff is rules, for the purposes of identifying who is a successor of a particular Legion. The Black Templars are unambiguously described as a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, ergo they are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists rules-wise.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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2019/11/20 15:46:48
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Fair to say you are implying a logic that is directly countered by the fact they get their own super doctrine.
Stop looking for ways to apply more free rules to your units. It is quite obvious that black Templar have their own chapter rules and are not in fact anything like the imperial fist.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2019/11/20 16:51:09
Subject: Re:Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Dakka Veteran
Illinois
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Given recent rulings from GW this probably will be in the FAQ. I seriously doubt that RAI is for BT to have two super doctrines.
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2019/11/20 17:02:12
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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 Xenomancers wrote:Fair to say you are implying a logic that is directly countered by the fact they get their own super doctrine.
Stop looking for ways to apply more free rules to your units. It is quite obvious that black Templar have their own chapter rules and are not in fact anything like the imperial fist.
Explain why the Special Issue Wargear is missing for Black Templars when everyone else, including the Crimson Fists (who are a successor Chapter last I looked) get them? Why does every other Successor Chapter in existence (including Crimson Fists) get the ability to buy a relic from their parent Chapter?
I don't think GW intends to let Black Templars use the Fists super doctrine, but I also don't think they intended Black Templars to not follow literally every other Chapter in C: SM in having access to some of the stuff.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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2019/11/20 17:17:16
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 AlmightyWalrus wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Fair to say you are implying a logic that is directly countered by the fact they get their own super doctrine.
Stop looking for ways to apply more free rules to your units. It is quite obvious that black Templar have their own chapter rules and are not in fact anything like the imperial fist.
Explain why the Special Issue Wargear is missing for Black Templars when everyone else, including the Crimson Fists (who are a successor Chapter last I looked) get them? Why does every other Successor Chapter in existence (including Crimson Fists) get the ability to buy a relic from their parent Chapter?
I don't think GW intends to let Black Templars use the Fists super doctrine, but I also don't think they intended Black Templars to not follow literally every other Chapter in C: SM in having access to some of the stuff.
Because black templars received a supplement, not a codex.
It will be the same for BA, DA and SW. Who are they going to claim for parent chapters then?
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2019/11/20 17:21:52
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Spoletta wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Fair to say you are implying a logic that is directly countered by the fact they get their own super doctrine.
Stop looking for ways to apply more free rules to your units. It is quite obvious that black Templar have their own chapter rules and are not in fact anything like the imperial fist.
Explain why the Special Issue Wargear is missing for Black Templars when everyone else, including the Crimson Fists (who are a successor Chapter last I looked) get them? Why does every other Successor Chapter in existence (including Crimson Fists) get the ability to buy a relic from their parent Chapter?
I don't think GW intends to let Black Templars use the Fists super doctrine, but I also don't think they intended Black Templars to not follow literally every other Chapter in C: SM in having access to some of the stuff.
Because black templars received a supplement, not a codex.
They didn't, and therein lies the problem.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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2019/11/20 17:55:42
Subject: Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Fair to say you are implying a logic that is directly countered by the fact they get their own super doctrine.
Stop looking for ways to apply more free rules to your units. It is quite obvious that black Templar have their own chapter rules and are not in fact anything like the imperial fist.
Explain why the Special Issue Wargear is missing for Black Templars when everyone else, including the Crimson Fists (who are a successor Chapter last I looked) get them? Why does every other Successor Chapter in existence (including Crimson Fists) get the ability to buy a relic from their parent Chapter?
I don't think GW intends to let Black Templars use the Fists super doctrine, but I also don't think they intended Black Templars to not follow literally every other Chapter in C: SM in having access to some of the stuff.
BECAUSE BLACK TEMPLARS DO HAVE SPECIAL ISSUE WARGEAR. read their BT tactica article. and do some thinking. special issue wargear is a thing because most sucessor chapters lack their own relics etc.
Burn (Shoot or Stab) the Witch!
If there’s one thing that Black Templars can’t stand, it’s witches.** By ‘witches’, we of course mean rogue psykers, though if we’re being honest, they’re not exactly keen on sanctioned ones either! They may still rely on Navigators to guide their crusading fleets through the warp, but they won’t allow any psykers within their own ranks under any circumstances. However, the Black Templars more than make up for this fact by being REALLY good at killing psykers. Like, super-good! Take this neat combo, for example…
For a single Command Point, you can bestow a Chapter Relic – or, more specifically, one of three Crusade Relics – upon a Sword Brother or Sergeant. In this case, we’re talking an Intercessor Sergeant equipped with a stalker bolt rifle. Make sure he’s armed with Witchseeker Bolts and your improvised ‘witch sniper’ will not only be free to target their Psyker of choice, but can potentially inflict 5 wounds with a single shot!
this sure as feth LOOKS like special issue war gear. it's called something differant yeah but the idea is the same.
anyway Templars I could see being FAQed to get access to IF special issue wargear, but even that I doubt. until GW says seperate the sane and safe approuch is to choose 1 or the other
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/20 17:59:55
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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