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The other night, I tried out my two-Guijia list (well, there's two models, after all), and much to my surprise it performed rather well. The Engineer earned his keep, resetting and repairing one TAG about six times through the game.

I've not found the "spam" to be an issue - no-one I play with really likes that, so it doesn't come up.

Im here for InfinityTheTerrain, not InfinityTheGame. Looking at the terrain people/companies come up with is the main thing keeping me coming back from time to time.

Hopefully Code 1 will change that.

Yeah, my buddy and I had started playing Infinity as a side game for when we wanted a sci-fi skirmish game with cool models.

However, the barrier to entry with the rules kind of left us feeling annoyed. The core rules are simple enough, but the layered special rules in other special rules, and fairly awful layout of the book for those rules made us lose interest.

Even after a couple dozen games we were spending an obnoxious amount of time looking in the rulebook for clarification or looking online.

And any break you take from the game feels punishing since we were feeling like we were having to relearn the entire system every time we played, making it not work as a side game for us.

I understand your point, and I would agree that Infinity is not easy, but I think that's sometimes what draws people in. There is so much going on, and there are lots(possibly too many) of interactions between certain profiles and skills and equipment. I personally enjoy the nuanced movement and order pools, it offers a type of immersive combat which I have not found in other games. The character models feel unique and important, and don't just give me the ability to re roll ones to hit or something bland like that. It offers something other games don't, and if you are looking for something easy to learn then don't play infinity, if every game on the market was streamlined then we would have endless variations of the same games. Don't get me wrong, there are things within the game that I do not like. For example, I find Crit very frustrating at times, but as much as it can flaw an attack, it can benefit you in the same way on the next order. I think the idea of a grunt getting a lucky shot on a expensive character is extremely fun, and it adds flair to the game that makes every piece important in some form or other.

It is the only sci-fi rule system that has immersed me into the game, granted I have only really played a handful of sci-fi games such as 40k, kill team, some space battle games, and some superhero games. I found with 40k as much as I love the narrative and the background, the actual game just left me unsatisfied, for many reasons which I am sure have been said repeatedly. Primarily it was a lack of immersion and care for the models I was using, the repeated use of the same rules for characters who undoubtedly let you re-roll 1s! This made it dull, as I don't play competitively, I play because I love the setting and the models. Complexity isn't a bad thing IMHO, but like all things, it is down to taste and time.

I brought this up back when N3 was released and was yelled down.

N3, much like Warmachine Mk3 starts off okay as a new starting point, but they failed to consolidate and stick to that consolidation point. Constantly using the excuse of the rules being free doesn't change the fact that giant bloated rules sets are bad for game health.

This has me worried for N4 since they don't seem to understand the lesson of N3. Having a separate simpler rules set isn't the solution, it's a band aid over a festering wound.

Well the good news is that nobody is making you play N4, we still use the original suppression fire rules since the N3 ones are stupid.

 Alphabet wrote:
I understand your point, and I would agree that Infinity is not easy, but I think that's sometimes what draws people in. There is so much going on, and there are lots(possibly too many) of interactions between certain profiles and skills and equipment. I personally enjoy the nuanced movement and order pools, it offers a type of immersive combat which I have not found in other games. The character models feel unique and important, and don't just give me the ability to re roll ones to hit or something bland like that. It offers something other games don't, and if you are looking for something easy to learn then don't play infinity, if every game on the market was streamlined then we would have endless variations of the same games. Don't get me wrong, there are things within the game that I do not like. For example, I find Crit very frustrating at times, but as much as it can flaw an attack, it can benefit you in the same way on the next order. I think the idea of a grunt getting a lucky shot on a expensive character is extremely fun, and it adds flair to the game that makes every piece important in some form or other.

It is the only sci-fi rule system that has immersed me into the game, granted I have only really played a handful of sci-fi games such as 40k, kill team, some space battle games, and some superhero games. I found with 40k as much as I love the narrative and the background, the actual game just left me unsatisfied, for many reasons which I am sure have been said repeatedly. Primarily it was a lack of immersion and care for the models I was using, the repeated use of the same rules for characters who undoubtedly let you re-roll 1s! This made it dull, as I don't play competitively, I play because I love the setting and the models. Complexity isn't a bad thing IMHO, but like all things, it is down to taste and time.

Don't get me wrong, my opponent and I enjoyed the game (when we weren't continually reading the rules in the book or off the Wiki page). But we felt it was a system the required it to be your main game to stay familiar with.

We wouldn't have minded that, if we didn't already have a game that required that level of dedication and time spent into playing and memorization of rules as our main game. The rules and things you can do in Infinity is incredible, with tons of depth to it, but like Warmachine, being able to fluently play a game of Infinity is a skill that decays fast when it is not used frequently.

And for two people who were looking to use it as a game played every now and then, it just didn't fit. However, thankfully the Infinity models we already have are perfect for Rogue Stars, so my buddy and I will be adding to our Infinity collections for that.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:
I understand your point, and I would agree that Infinity is not easy, but I think that's sometimes what draws people in. There is so much going on, and there are lots(possibly too many) of interactions between certain profiles and skills and equipment. I personally enjoy the nuanced movement and order pools, it offers a type of immersive combat which I have not found in other games. The character models feel unique and important, and don't just give me the ability to re roll ones to hit or something bland like that. It offers something other games don't, and if you are looking for something easy to learn then don't play infinity, if every game on the market was streamlined then we would have endless variations of the same games. Don't get me wrong, there are things within the game that I do not like. For example, I find Crit very frustrating at times, but as much as it can flaw an attack, it can benefit you in the same way on the next order. I think the idea of a grunt getting a lucky shot on a expensive character is extremely fun, and it adds flair to the game that makes every piece important in some form or other.

It is the only sci-fi rule system that has immersed me into the game, granted I have only really played a handful of sci-fi games such as 40k, kill team, some space battle games, and some superhero games. I found with 40k as much as I love the narrative and the background, the actual game just left me unsatisfied, for many reasons which I am sure have been said repeatedly. Primarily it was a lack of immersion and care for the models I was using, the repeated use of the same rules for characters who undoubtedly let you re-roll 1s! This made it dull, as I don't play competitively, I play because I love the setting and the models. Complexity isn't a bad thing IMHO, but like all things, it is down to taste and time.

Don't get me wrong, my opponent and I enjoyed the game (when we weren't continually reading the rules in the book or off the Wiki page). But we felt it was a system the required it to be your main game to stay familiar with.

We wouldn't have minded that, if we didn't already have a game that required that level of dedication and time spent into playing and memorization of rules as our main game. The rules and things you can do in Infinity is incredible, with tons of depth to it, but like Warmachine, being able to fluently play a game of Infinity is a skill that decays fast when it is not used frequently.

And for two people who were looking to use it as a game played every now and then, it just didn't fit. However, thankfully the Infinity models we already have are perfect for Rogue Stars, so my buddy and I will be adding to our Infinity collections for that.

Hey bud, It was more aimed at OP, I agree that you can't really play infinity as a side game. Unless wargaming is a full time occupation!

I play it almost exclusively as a side game, fwiw.

Infinity is probably the most technically brilliant wargame on the market. But I dont play it any more. And am not likely to. The game is simply too overwhelming, and keeping track of all the rules and everything going on is just too intense and truth be told, while A few years go, I loved stuff like that, these days I'd rather get my kicks by relaxing with a more simple set of game mechanics. Loving Warcry these days, for example. Infinity 'starter-rules' are fine.

I still love the models and I'm glad the guys at cb are doing well though. Fair play to them.

I personally love a few things about Infinity.

It is deliberately a tense game. However, it does require you to communicate with your opponent. A lot of things that really irk people can be resolved by communicating with your opponent or declaring your intent. That's not just empty rhetoric- "It's my intent to get this dude to this corner without being seen by your dude over there on the roof, can you tell me when your guys can't see him?"

Which, of course, if the person teaching you the game has been playing for a while and didn't let you know this- they're a jerk. That's like teaching someone to swim by throwing them in the deepest part of the pool, and pulling the cash out of their wallet while they drown.

Because of this, Infinity actually tends to bring out sportsmanship in a lot of people, and it also highlights the scumbags pretty well. You can straight-up see who's a competitive player, and a WAAC douchebag. Competitive players are more than capable of being good sports and friendly people (and most of them actually are).

Since the communities that play Infinity tend to be small, WAAC douchebags can get pinpointed and ostracized more easily than they can with 40k. It's harder for them to be as "predatory" and find new player groups to grief and trample (or worse, contaminate).

Every game has its flaws in balance, but with Infinity it seems like everything is more balanced than 40k/Kill Team.... which leads me to my next point.

I love than Infinity can induce so much rage in 40k powergamers. It's a game that doesn't have "the best faction", and no matter who you play, for the most part, if you know what you're doing- you can compete with any other faction. 40k WAAC players seem to loathe the idea that it's a game that doesn't require you to have hundreds of dollars of disposable income at the ready for every new release or FAQ, just in case there's something broken in RAW or it's completely imbalanced. Because, far more than 40k, it requires more tactics than "buy the best toy and don't put it in the wrong spot".

Oh, and I love the fact that I don't have to buy a new book every time 2 new units get added to my faction. It's rather nice having all of that online, easily accessible, and when there's an update or change- the change is there, online where you get all your stuff from anyway.

And did I mention that CB actually interacts with the community, takes the feedback, and uses it to improve their game?

Deadnight wrote:Infinity is probably the most technically brilliant wargame on the market. But I dont play it any more. And am not likely to. The game is simply too overwhelming, and keeping track of all the rules and everything going on is just too intense and truth be told, while A few years go, I loved stuff like that, these days I'd rather get my kicks by relaxing with a more simple set of game mechanics. Loving Warcry these days, for example. Infinity 'starter-rules' are fine.

I still love the models and I'm glad the guys at cb are doing well though. Fair play to them.

Pretty much my sentiment.

Adeptus Doritos wrote:I personally love a few things about Infinity.

It is deliberately a tense game. However, it does require you to communicate with your opponent. A lot of things that really irk people can be resolved by communicating with your opponent or declaring your intent. That's not just empty rhetoric- "It's my intent to get this dude to this corner without being seen by your dude over there on the roof, can you tell me when your guys can't see him?"

The tense nature is great and an example of good game design.

Every game has its flaws in balance, but with Infinity it seems like everything is more balanced than 40k/Kill Team.... which leads me to my next point.

That's like saying someone is better at swimming than a brick. Not untrue, but not really impressive enough to set something apart.

I love than Infinity can induce so much rage in 40k powergamers. It's a game that doesn't have "the best faction", and no matter who you play, for the most part, if you know what you're doing- you can compete with any other faction. 40k WAAC players seem to loathe the idea that it's a game that doesn't require you to have hundreds of dollars of disposable income at the ready for every new release or FAQ, just in case there's something broken in RAW or it's completely imbalanced. Because, far more than 40k, it requires more tactics than "buy the best toy and don't put it in the wrong spot".

Oh, and I love the fact that I don't have to buy a new book every time 2 new units get added to my faction. It's rather nice having all of that online, easily accessible, and when there's an update or change- the change is there, online where you get all your stuff from anyway.

And did I mention that CB actually interacts with the community, takes the feedback, and uses it to improve their game?

As in the OP, Infinity is a breath of fresh air after playing 40k.
Once you've had some time to try some of the games out there (after discovering that there are games beyond GW) you get a sense of what you actually like in a game.
If you want something that's "easy to learn, but hard to master" like me then Infinity isn't the best fit. Nor is it if you want something casual and easy going, Infinity demands too much attention to be entirely casual.

NH Gunsmith wrote:Yeah, my buddy and I had started playing Infinity as a side game for when we wanted a sci-fi skirmish game with cool models.

However, the barrier to entry with the rules kind of left us feeling annoyed. The core rules are simple enough, but the layered special rules in other special rules, and fairly awful layout of the book for those rules made us lose interest.

Vertrucio wrote:I brought this up back when N3 was released and was yelled down.

N3, much like Warmachine Mk3 starts off okay as a new starting point, but they failed to consolidate and stick to that consolidation point. Constantly using the excuse of the rules being free doesn't change the fact that giant bloated rules sets are bad for game health.

This has me worried for N4 since they don't seem to understand the lesson of N3. Having a separate simpler rules set isn't the solution, it's a band aid over a festering wound.

I'm starting to experiment more with hackers, specialists and whatnot (as with three months of unemployment earlier in the year I had time to paint some ), but I still mostly enjoy simpler games. The starter box model - three grunts, an elite and a couple of special-purpose models works pretty well. I like the way that hacking works more similarly to shooting than it did, but there's opportunity for more streamlining there (something like defining things as "<Active stat> vs <Reactive stat>" would work as common wording and make it more obvious, I think), and they really should swap the Armour roll over to a standard D vs ARM Normal Roll for the attacker - it' exactly the same, but expressed in the same terminology as the rest of the game, rather than being the one weird outlier where you want to roll high.

Get 15-20 infinity models, proxy everything, it's in official rules after all. If it's confusing for your opponent, great, another tool in your toolbox, makes it easier to wi, if he has constantly ask for every model what it's supposed to be. Heck, you can play any army and sectorial with this method. Your opponents might not be to happy, but you are not doing anything against the rules.

 smurfORnot wrote:
Get 15-20 infinity models, proxy everything, it's in official rules after all. If it's confusing for your opponent, great, another tool in your toolbox, makes it easier to wi, if he has constantly ask for every model what it's supposed to be. Heck, you can play any army and sectorial with this method. Your opponents might not be to happy, but you are not doing anything against the rules.

Hmmm.... k.... neat.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Yeah, my buddy and I had started playing Infinity as a side game for when we wanted a sci-fi skirmish game with cool models.

However, the barrier to entry with the rules kind of left us feeling annoyed. The core rules are simple enough, but the layered special rules in other special rules, and fairly awful layout of the book for those rules made us lose interest.

Even after a couple dozen games we were spending an obnoxious amount of time looking in the rulebook for clarification or looking online.

And any break you take from the game feels punishing since we were feeling like we were having to relearn the entire system every time we played, making it not work as a side game for us.

Do not use the rulebook. Download the android app or use the Online List Builder. You can build your list. If you have a question about a units rule, just click the rule and it will take you to the Infinity Wiki. This makes the game very approachable and easy to play.

 Red_Five wrote:

Do not use the rulebook. Download the android app or use the Online List Builder. You can build your list. If you have a question about a units rule, just click the rule and it will take you to the Infinity Wiki. This makes the game very approachable and easy to play.

Except that there are several rules entries for how anything works. For example: engage is a game state and a skill, plus you need to know the close combat rules too.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
...I'm starting to experiment more with hackers, specialists and whatnot (as with three months of unemployment earlier in the year I had time to paint some ), but I still mostly enjoy simpler games. The starter box model - three grunts, an elite and a couple of special-purpose models works pretty well. I like the way that hacking works more similarly to shooting than it did, but there's opportunity for more streamlining there (something like defining things as "<Active stat> vs <Reactive stat>" would work as common wording and make it more obvious, I think), and they really should swap the Armour roll over to a standard D vs ARM Normal Roll for the attacker - it' exactly the same, but expressed in the same terminology as the rest of the game, rather than being the one weird outlier where you want to roll high.

If you like smaller, simpler games you might look at the recon+ format (https://rocketshipgames.com/infinity/recon+/), it uses 150pt lists with some extra restrictions (limited Impetuous/multi-wound models, fireteams cap at three models) on a smaller table with missions specifically designed for small format games. One of my big criticisms of Infinity is that the starter box mission sequence does a good job of explaining the fundamentals but then gives you no guidance on how to get from there to full-size games, recon+ is a nice intermediate step that lets you experiment with any mechanics in the game without needing to keep track of all the stuff you need to do to run a full 300pt force, especially as the ITS scenarios get more complicated every season.

 DarkBlack wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

Do not use the rulebook. Download the android app or use the Online List Builder. You can build your list. If you have a question about a units rule, just click the rule and it will take you to the Infinity Wiki. This makes the game very approachable and easy to play.

Except that there are several rules entries for how anything works. For example: engage is a game state and a skill, plus you need to know the close combat rules too.

All of which you can look up on the wiki, instead of flipping through the core rulebook and the errata.

Personally I've only played a few of the intro box missions. I've been browsing the wiki as I encounter rules in the army builder, and it's left me very confused in a lot of cases. I would buy the rulebook but I don't see a point now; I've put Infinity aside until N4.

I've been playing since the beginning soul, I do think they have over done a lot of stuff without need. hacking for example used to be super simple. there was only 1 type of hacking device, a "hacking plus" gave you a bonus as did 3 optional boosts if you brought an EVO.

they are suffering the same problem as GW-the universal lore is so deep now that they are trying to find some way to represent it on the tabletop and it is cluttering things up.

 aphyon wrote:
I've been playing since the beginning soul, I do think they have over done a lot of stuff without need. hacking for example used to be super simple. there was only 1 type of hacking device, a "hacking plus" gave you a bonus as did 3 optional boosts if you brought an EVO.

they are suffering the same problem as GW-the universal lore is so deep now that they are trying to find some way to represent it on the tabletop and it is cluttering things up.

To be clear my comment was a response to the "you don't need a rulebook just read the wiki" line of discussion.

 Soul Samurai wrote:
Personally I've only played a few of the intro box missions. I've been browsing the wiki as I encounter rules in the army builder, and it's left me very confused in a lot of cases. I would buy the rulebook but I don't see a point now; I've put Infinity aside until N4.

You still need the rule book to learn the game. I merely meant that once you understand the basics of the game, using the wiki will be faster to look up specific rules than flipping through the rulbook (especially when you are at the table).

Also, the rulebook is up for free in PDF form.

 Red_Five wrote:

 Soul Samurai wrote:
Personally I've only played a few of the intro box missions. I've been browsing the wiki as I encounter rules in the army builder, and it's left me very confused in a lot of cases. I would buy the rulebook but I don't see a point now; I've put Infinity aside until N4.

You still need the rule book to learn the game. I merely meant that once you understand the basics of the game, using the wiki will be faster to look up specific rules than flipping through the rulbook (especially when you are at the table).

Also, the rulebook is up for free in PDF form.

Ah, yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for the link, I didn't know that was available!

I came here to say that Infinity is by far the best wargame I've ever played, inherently encourages sportsmanship, its fluff is a lot of fun, its aesthetics are on the whole pretty damn golden, and I always feel a bit silly going back to 40k after a period focussing more on Infinity. But then I found that Adeptus Doritos had pretty much said what I was going to say...

grouchoben

I agree, that it is top tier in design and execution.

.balance is really well done. some factions may be better at some army builds but you can literally build every army variation from every faction. it also counters power builds by punishing the order pool. you need the support units for the army to function and survive. you could bring nothing but super troopers with the best gear, the best weapons and best cammo but then you end up with 4 or 5 models in a 300 point game. good luck getting anywhere or getting an objective.

.the full reactive system insures both players are always involved in playing the game.

.the miniatures are fantastic

.the cost for a full army does not break the bank

it doesn't hurt that the inspiration for the game comes from the fantastic works of Masamune Shirow's ghost in the shell, appleseed and such.

the real downsides-

.table setup can be time consuming
.over complicating some rules were not needed outside of special scenerio missions. hacking now has multiple pages of programs to use all based on a bunch of different hacking devices when the old rules covered everything on one page. it feels almost as bad as the many pages of stratagems in 40K now.

I'm starting to lose interest.

First they cancelled Qapu Khalqi (my first army), then they cancelled Tohaa (my second army), they announced that more sectorals will be cancelled when N4 drops, and now they just announced that Code One will not even support vanilla Haqqislam upon release...I feel like I have wasted a lot of time and money on this game now compared to the other miniature war games I play.

I'm sure it won't be that long before Haqq gets the Code One treatment. They may even benefit from the additional development time.

Basically what they've said is Code One will only release with just the 4 factions that have "active" Operation boxes as of Adepticon (the new O-12 vs Shesvasti and the upcoming PO/YJ). Honestly, I won't be surprised if Code One releases with literally just the 30ish models from the box sets and nothing more. I'd try not to read too much into it.

The remaining factions willl be released for Code One in 2021, according to Koni. Thing is that Code One is a different way to play Infinity (CB's words) and I think that they are treating it as a new separate game. Fair enough, IMO, as long as N4 has all the factions in it.

Qapu Khalqi is still a playable faction, as is Acontecimento. Just no new minis or sectorial updates. When have other sectorials had much in the way of updates, except for a few new minis/units? QK is not lagging at all right now. We'll see how it fares in N4. I expect, not unreasonably, a place for every mini, even if it is 're-assigned' as/to another unit.