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slave.entity wrote: CWE just won Slaaneshmas GT beating out Imperial Fists, Orks, and IH.
Four of the six GT's this past weekend included CWE in the top 4.
Twin starcannon wraithlords, night spinners, CHEs, nightwings, reapers, and vibro cannons all made an appearance. Two of the lists included a Yncarne.
Most lists took a custom craftworld with Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots. The one top 4 placing flyer spam list took Expert Crafters/Masters of Concealment instead.
Sean Nayden still doing Sean Nayden things with Biel-Tan, Sombre Sentinels, and Yncarne/Yvraine.
Alaitoc is no where in sight.
I was running vibro cannons before it was cool...
Its a welcome change. I' a bit surprised about the twin star cannon wraith lords.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/09 22:38:36
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Kdash wrote: I’m still not convinced on full mech Eldar outside of Wave Serpent spam imh. I feel like you’re going to come up against a few Imperial Fists lists, which can take you apart pretty quickly if you focus on nothing but vehicles.
My first game was against Imperial Fists, which was a very close game, with me winning by only two points. 4 of my 5 games were against Marines with over half the players bringing Marines (19 out of 34 players).
If not going first, maximize staying out of range as much as possible. I utilized Phantasm in two games to ensure this. I went second 3 of 5 games.
Right now, Marines of all flavors have all the tools and it does feel like it is an uphill battle facing those armies.
Participated in the Maelstrom GT (ITC Event) this weekend. Not many photos but I took my mechanized Craftworld with custom traits. I played against, Imperial Fists, Astra Militarum (4 super heavies), Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Ravenguard (with 17 Centurions). I went 4-1 and placed 5th out of 34 in battle points (so close to top 3). The one loss was against Iron Hands which was in round 4. My list only had 13 models, which made me a bit nervous. However, Expert Crafters is such a fantastic ability for this style of army. I got to go first against Astra Militarum (round 2) and Ravenguard (round 5). I only lost one unit in the first turn against Iron Hands (round 4). The list turned out to be quite resilient and very hard hitting. With the CA 2019 now released, I need to make some small changes as my Crimson Hunter Exarchswent up 15 points each. Also, with such a small model count army, I was able to set up quickly, play faster and thus ensure every game finished within time.
First photo is beginning of game and nearly everything is out of LOS and there are 2 Centurions in Deep Strike (round 5).
Second photo was the end of my turn two and I've destroyed two super heavy tanks (round 2).
This is great thank you. I guess because of the units you have you done need the batallion CP?
Also is this strictly mechanised? Sure you got transports but you only have two characters riding in them. It's focus is vehicles so maybe it needs another name?
It would be nice to have more CP, but I wanted to run vehicles more, which excluded the battalion. In 5th edition, we called vehicle heavy lists Mechdar. This is, more or less, the same concept but tweaked for 8th edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 02:48:26
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
So, this is the list I was considering, but, the main unit can likely be swapped out for whatever you’d personally prefer. Chances are this might take me a while to put together, so, no point in trying to hide it!
It gives 24 screening bodies and 20 4++ Dire Avenger bodies (when blobbed up with Asurmen) to sit on objectives and put out a fair amount of shots at 21” range.
It then gives me the tough Wraithlord platforms, happily using the re-rolls and ignoring cover with the Starcannons.
Finally, the Conclave. I really want to build a list around it, but it is also hard to justify it when 3 CHEs or 3 Fire Prisms are cheaper (124 points in the case of the Prisms). Or even 9 Shining Spears and 2 bare bones Serpents. I feel like, when it works even reasonably well, it will dominate games, it is just those times when it doesn’t. I mean, who doesn’t want a 3+, 3++, 5+++, re-rolling all shooting attacks, hitting on 2’s in melee, re-rolling 1’s, wounding on 2’s, re-rolling 1’s, -2 to hit vs shooting tank of a unit that can get +2 to charge on the turn it deep strikes? All eggs, in the one massive bullet magnet basket.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/10 10:32:45
I've been looking at the skyrunner council, and I think one of the most important things will be getting your distribution of psychic powers correct. A couple of key points:
-If you fail to cast your key powers you lose. -The Seer Council strat requires the Warlock unit and Farseer to be the same Craftworld. -The new Runes of Fortune powers are Craftworld specific.
Bacause of this, I think you need the most important buffs to the Conclave to be on the Conclave itself, and on the Farseer of the same Craftworld, so that they can use the Seer Council strat. Protect is clearly the most important spell, and I would say quicken is next- you cannot afford to fail Quicken on a turn in which you plan around it (which you should be doing in order to stay out of DtW range). The Farseer needs to have Fortune, as that is another essential buff, but here was the lightbulb moment for me: give that Farseer Focus Will.
So the plan for the psychic phase is;
-Play "Seer Council" on the Conclave and Farseer of the Same Craftworld. -That Farseer casts Focus Will on the Conclave, then Fortune. - Use "Unparralleled Mastery" to cast the Farseers 3rd power. -The conclave then casts Protect, Jinx, and Quicken on a +3 (100% chance with Children of Prophecy).
Ignoring DtW, this gives the following odds of succesfully casting powers:
Now maybe I'm being a bit too cautious, but I wouldn't trust your lone Warlock Skyrunner to carry the Conclaves Focus Will. He's a lot squishier than the Farseer (could die to perils!), doesn't get the free reroll, and shouldn't be benefiting from the Seer Council Strat.
I also don't think the Sky Sword and Witch strike combo is a good idea. That Farseer is too important to be going near combat, and the Conclave should be using "Nimble Escape" after they attack to also be as far from the enemy as they can get. The Farseer needs to be chilling in the spot you plan to Nimble Escape to.
You need Ghostwalk on a psyker from the same Craftworld as the Conclave. Sometimes you will go second and there won't be anywhere safe to deploy the Conclave. Give it to the Warlock Skyrunner from the same detachment, or the Conclave itself.
Finally I think Masters of Concealment might be necessary as the second trait. Even with Protect, a Conclave only has a 3+ Sv, MoC takes you to 2+ outside of 12", which you should be aiming for using Nimble Escape.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/10 11:57:00
I must have missed the Runes of Fortune powers being Craftworld linked… hrm. It’ll require some more thought, but first instincts are to go with Focus Will on the Conclave and give up the D6 smite, and then Ghost Walk/Quicken on the Warlock Skyrunner. This then puts Conceal on the other Warlock Skyrunner alongside any other power I want from the Runes of Fortune.
Witch Strike is an interesting idea to me, when paired with the relic sword. 2 attacks hitting on 2’s, wounding on 2’s and doing 5 damage a pop is extremely nice when paired with Jinx. The only downside is it is just 2 attacks, needs Jinx, and, for the required swap around it means I’ll have to give it up or give up Jinx.
As for combat ranges, I’m leaning more towards Savage Blades rather than Concealment, simply because I expect to be putting the Conclave into deep strike in a fair number of games. This will then require me to get up close with the Farseer in order to use the Seer Council strat, and to take advantage of Runes of Witnessing and Forewarned. If I do this, then the Farseer will likely be within 10-12” of parts of my opponents’ army (16” at max), which will cancel out the trait. There are also numerous things in the meta that ignore cover atm.
If I’m playing someone with limited ignore LoS firepower and low mobility, then I’d probably start them on the table and risk going second, but beyond that I’d be cautious of getting hit before I can buff up.
Order would be –
Seer Council strat > Focus Will on the Conclave > Protect Conclave > Enhance Conclave > Jinx > Doom > Guide Conclave > Conceal Conclave > Ghostwalk/Quicken Conclave.
I’ll likely swap out the Skysword for the Phoenix Gem. Would likely run the Ambush of Blades WL trait as well, due to often being in close and giving the Conclave’s attacks -1ap on a 5+ to hit is incredibly useful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hrm, might be worth changing the Expert Crafters on the Dire Avengers Battalion to Masterful Shots as well, for the ignores cover - that or move the Windriders into the Spearhead
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/10 12:35:58
It's just occurred to me that you can't use Nimble Escape after deepstriking. That actually takes the shine off quite a lot for me because, as you say, you will be deepstriking quite often, and Nimble Escape is kind of the whole point of the Windrider Host.
Ambush of Blades never occurred to me (forgot it existed) and combos really well with Enhance, and Supreme Disdain. Nice!
I'm still not sold on Savage blades, although I see your point if you're deepstriking and can't Nimble Escape away, Hail of Doom or +1 to charge might be good options too.
Something I've seen repeated a lot is that units that get up close don't benefit from MoC or Alaitoc, which would be true if the board was only 2' wide, but often you can be close to one part of the enemies army but more than 12" from the rest.
As nice as the D6 Smite is on the Conclave I think you'd be safer going with Ghostwalk. Ambush of Blades and Enhance don't do anything if you fail that 9" charge, so the +3 to cast will be important.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could put the Windriders in the Windrider Host Detachment to use the eye wateringly expensive Tempest of Blades strat to maximum effect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 13:02:46
Yeh, that interaction with deepstriking is a bit tough, but I feel like on the deepstrike charge turn I should be ok as I can get the Farseer into charge position alongside the Conclave so it’ll provide a bit of protection the following turn. I’ll prob still spend the CP on the Windrider Host, as, it’ll still provide great utility options on all the other turns.
Hail of Doom is interesting, especially if I drop Tempest of Blades as well. This might be possible in games where I deepstrike the Conclave as I’ll be saving the 2CP I’d otherwise have spent on Nimble Escape. I’m now even more tempted to drop Expert Crafters from the 2nd Battalion to put in Hail of Doom.
Not fussed about replacing D6 smite with Ghostwalk. The way I see it, I’ll either be casting Ghostwalk or Quicken on the Conclave and likely won’t ever need both, so it makes sense to put both powers on the same unit. It could work as a fall back option, but, I’ll already be casting Protect, Jinx and Enhance from the Conclave every turn anyway, so I won’t have the option to cast Ghostwalk unless I don’t cast Enhance.
Fair point on the MoC and Alaitoc thing. I guess I’m more ingrained to think about gunline castles and SM flyers being able to go wherever they need, rather than all the other armies out there that will be more spread out.
7+ charge, 6+ charge. Again, I think it comes down to what I think I’m going to have to give up to benefit from it. I feel like, over the course of an event etc, that Hail of Doom will be more beneficial than the +1 to charge, which might not even be from deepstrike.
Kdash wrote: Yeh, that interaction with deepstriking is a bit tough, but I feel like on the deepstrike charge turn I should be ok as I can get the Farseer into charge position alongside the Conclave so it’ll provide a bit of protection the following turn. I’ll prob still spend the CP on the Windrider Host, as, it’ll still provide great utility options on all the other turns.
Hail of Doom is interesting, especially if I drop Tempest of Blades as well. This might be possible in games where I deepstrike the Conclave as I’ll be saving the 2CP I’d otherwise have spent on Nimble Escape. I’m now even more tempted to drop Expert Crafters from the 2nd Battalion to put in Hail of Doom.
Not fussed about replacing D6 smite with Ghostwalk. The way I see it, I’ll either be casting Ghostwalk or Quicken on the Conclave and likely won’t ever need both, so it makes sense to put both powers on the same unit. It could work as a fall back option, but, I’ll already be casting Protect, Jinx and Enhance from the Conclave every turn anyway, so I won’t have the option to cast Ghostwalk unless I don’t cast Enhance.
Fair point on the MoC and Alaitoc thing. I guess I’m more ingrained to think about gunline castles and SM flyers being able to go wherever they need, rather than all the other armies out there that will be more spread out.
7+ charge, 6+ charge. Again, I think it comes down to what I think I’m going to have to give up to benefit from it. I feel like, over the course of an event etc, that Hail of Doom will be more beneficial than the +1 to charge, which might not even be from deepstrike.
Thanks for talking this out with me btw!
Don't mention it! I'm finding it very useful.
I think I've been taking a more conservative approach to designing a Conclave list than you are. I've been focusing on getting the best possible chance of casting the defensive and movement powers, and treating anything that boosts damage as a nice extra. Ambush of Blades does make it very tempting to upgrade Enhance to one of the "must cast" powers though. Combined with Jinx, and Supreme Disdain I make it out to be ~21 wounds to a knight.
Absolutely still take the Windrider Host!
I would agree that +1 charge is a bit dull as a trait, Hail of Doom is much more exciting. Combining it with Tempest of Blades for AP-2 Shuricats would give marines a taste of their own medicine.
You could take Ghostwalk on the Conclave as well as on the lone Skyrunner. Most of the time you will cast Protect, Jinx and Enhance with the Conclave, then Ghostwalk with the Skyrunner. You're not going to miss Smite, but on the odd time when you absolutely HAVE to make that charge, you might want the +3 to cast as an option. Especially against an opponent that can Deny and knows they need to stop Ghostwalk.
I don't have strong opinions on the rest of your list, as I've never tried the 4++ Dire avenger swarm. Only a madman would experiment with that and a Conclave at the same time You could look at what a Brigade gets you though (plus a Supreme Command for the Conclave), you would probably get the same Wraithlords plus a horde of T3 Aspect Warriors with a couple of extra CP.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Kdash wrote: Yeh, that interaction with deepstriking is a bit tough, but I feel like on the deepstrike charge turn I should be ok as I can get the Farseer into charge position alongside the Conclave so it’ll provide a bit of protection the following turn. I’ll prob still spend the CP on the Windrider Host, as, it’ll still provide great utility options on all the other turns.
Hail of Doom is interesting, especially if I drop Tempest of Blades as well. This might be possible in games where I deepstrike the Conclave as I’ll be saving the 2CP I’d otherwise have spent on Nimble Escape. I’m now even more tempted to drop Expert Crafters from the 2nd Battalion to put in Hail of Doom.
Not fussed about replacing D6 smite with Ghostwalk. The way I see it, I’ll either be casting Ghostwalk or Quicken on the Conclave and likely won’t ever need both, so it makes sense to put both powers on the same unit. It could work as a fall back option, but, I’ll already be casting Protect, Jinx and Enhance from the Conclave every turn anyway, so I won’t have the option to cast Ghostwalk unless I don’t cast Enhance.
Fair point on the MoC and Alaitoc thing. I guess I’m more ingrained to think about gunline castles and SM flyers being able to go wherever they need, rather than all the other armies out there that will be more spread out.
7+ charge, 6+ charge. Again, I think it comes down to what I think I’m going to have to give up to benefit from it. I feel like, over the course of an event etc, that Hail of Doom will be more beneficial than the +1 to charge, which might not even be from deepstrike.
Thanks for talking this out with me btw!
Don't mention it! I'm finding it very useful.
I think I've been taking a more conservative approach to designing a Conclave list than you are. I've been focusing on getting the best possible chance of casting the defensive and movement powers, and treating anything that boosts damage as a nice extra. Ambush of Blades does make it very tempting to upgrade Enhance to one of the "must cast" powers though. Combined with Jinx, and Supreme Disdain I make it out to be ~21 wounds to a knight.
Absolutely still take the Windrider Host!
I would agree that +1 charge is a bit dull as a trait, Hail of Doom is much more exciting. Combining it with Tempest of Blades for AP-2 Shuricats would give marines a taste of their own medicine.
You could take Ghostwalk on the Conclave as well as on the lone Skyrunner. Most of the time you will cast Protect, Jinx and Enhance with the Conclave, then Ghostwalk with the Skyrunner. You're not going to miss Smite, but on the odd time when you absolutely HAVE to make that charge, you might want the +3 to cast as an option. Especially against an opponent that can Deny and knows they need to stop Ghostwalk.
I don't have strong opinions on the rest of your list, as I've never tried the 4++ Dire avenger swarm. Only a madman would experiment with that and a Conclave at the same time You could look at what a Brigade gets you though (plus a Supreme Command for the Conclave), you would probably get the same Wraithlords plus a horde of T3 Aspect Warriors with a couple of extra CP.
Well, the Dire Avengers blob came more from needing the extra CP, so needing troops, and then picking Asurmen simply because I don’t really need another Farseer, Warlock maybe and pretty much don’t need an Autarch due to all the re-rolls I’m going to be getting anyway (that and with at least 2 different sets of Craftworld traits I’d have to juggle HQs around in order to get the re-rolls on the right units). I could drop it all for another set of 3 Storm Guardians + a HQ and something for 238 points, but, I’m not that convinced I’d be able to find something as worthwhile as the DA troop firepower.
Maybe 3 units of Storm Guardians (flood the board with them), a Wraithseer with D-Cannon, a 3rd Support Weapon Platform, a unit of 6 Windriders and a unit of 5. This leaves 12 points to give the 1st Battalion Farseer and Warlock Spears. I’d probably give this Battalion Master of Concealment (in the vain hope they might be ignored whilst the sit on objectives ) and either Children of Prophecy or Webway Warriors to potentially put all 3 big jetbike units in deepstrike for 3CP.
I’m just worried that relying on hidden Storm Guardians is going to see me just shot off objectives.
Maybe i am trying too much with the DA as well... I do tend to go for a "try everything all at once" approach far too often.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/10 15:01:49
Here's a cheap Mechanized brigade I've been looking at using to provide CP for my Conclave Supreme Command:
Master Crafters + Masters of Concealment
Jetseer
Jetlock
Warlock
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
At 115 PTS for a falcon with starcannon and cats is a steal, yes it's not as tough as a serpent but a twin bright lance serpent is 157 PTS and has less firepower so I know which one I prefer.
kingheff wrote: At 115 PTS for a falcon with starcannon and cats is a steal, yes it's not as tough as a serpent but a twin bright lance serpent is 157 PTS and has less firepower so I know which one I prefer.
I'd splurge the extra 5 points for the CTM to keep the on the bounce accuracy, but its solidly in Razorback territory now. I may finally get back to finishing my grav tank list.
kingheff wrote: At 115 PTS for a falcon with starcannon and cats is a steal, yes it's not as tough as a serpent but a twin bright lance serpent is 157 PTS and has less firepower so I know which one I prefer.
Yeah not saying the falcon doesn't look solid now. I think falcon with ctm looks sexy right now.
I think I prefer the survivability, MW output and can hold capacity. I'll probably be running twin AML on my next outing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 22:25:05
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Here's a cheap Mechanized brigade I've been looking at using to provide CP for my Conclave Supreme Command:
Master Crafters + Masters of Concealment
Jetseer
Jetlock
Warlock
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
It's fast, has decent firepower, and I don't need to deploy any squishy elves on the board if i don't want to.
I really like there this is going. The decision (for me) is to add a Spearhead or Airwing. Nightspinners are very useful (I enjoyed running 3 this past weekend at a GT). But, CHE and Hemlocks are still very good.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Another question option I have been looking at is 3 vypers with shuri cannons and twin shuri underbelly. For 136 with the CA drops, they can move 20" to get into your opponents face, throw out a decent amount of shots (stacks well with Hail of Doom) and then charge stuff to tie up some shooting. Could be really useful in my opinion. If your opponent doesn't really deal with them or ignores them because they don't do too much damage, you still have a really speedy unit to run around getting objectives.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/11 03:15:45
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, -1 to be hit relic, +1W and 6+++ WL Trait Farseer, Doom, Executioner, Smite Warlock, Focus Will, Protect/Jinx
Wave Serpent, CTM, Twin Scatter Laser, Chin Cannon -5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire -5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Swiftstep
Wave Serpent, CTM, Twin Scatter Laser, Chin Cannon -5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire -5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Swiftstep
Wave Serpent, CTM, Twin Scatter Laser, Chin Cannon -5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire -3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML,Rapid Shot
Wave Serpent, CTM, Twin Scatter Laser, Chin Cannon -5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire -3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML, Rapid Shot -3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML, Rapid Shot
Fire Prism Fire Prism Fire Prism
I had two "games" but neither were much fun. I won both by getting 1st turn and using the Phantasm stratagem. With an army of 7 grav tanks you can deploy one in the middle of the deployment zone, and 3 on each flank. Then after the opponent deploys use Phantasm to move 3 tanks from one flank to the other. Going first and getting to counter deploy is harsh. On top of pulling a refused flank, Phantasm gives the ability to make sure some units are exactly where they need to be. You can move one of the Prisms to have LoS to a juicy target then link all 3, or put a Fire Dragon Serpent directly opposite a tank, then run out 17" and melt it. In both games I inflicted tons of damage on the first turn, whilst positioning to prevent any significant counter attack. My opponents lists were kind of friendly and I felt a bit bad. I'm still undecided on how good the list actually is.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/12/11 11:02:25
Currently, when combined with CA2019, Psychic Awakening, and the Marine popularity, Craftworld vehicles are very good. So many vehicles synch very well with Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment or the ignore cover trait (I forget the name).
Phantasm is an extremely good ability that helps me mitigate first turn massed shooting. I think your best solution is to scale the efficiency of your list to your local game scene so all can have a fun game. I just played 4 out of 5 tourney gfames against dialed Marine lists, so I have to adjust accordingly.
With that said, I have a 3 round locall event using ITC and they advised that all books are now valid. I had to tweak my list from the GT I attended last weekend and despite the CHE points increase, I see no reason to not take them.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Eldar- 4436 pts
~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme