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Asurmen isn't just his bubble, he's also an extremely effective combat character - one of the few characters in the game that can easily get a 2++, making him an outstanding tank, and his sword has the burst potential to kill almost anything in the game, even things with high invulns. Sure, you usually won't - but the risk is always there, and that's going to make a smart opponent think twice.

But to get the most of that, you really do need a list built around the concept; I don't think just plonking Asurmen + 30+ DAs into any old list is a very good idea.

Also, avenging strikes is so powerful when it goes off on a mostly intact squad it is worth considering all kinds of gimmicks that interact with it - e.x. deliberately keeping 1MW explosion vehicles in close proximity so you can hopefully activate it on all your units for only 1 dead in each, or possibly even taking the phoenix gem on a wraithseer and then telling your opponent "strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" There are all sorts of ways you can use this ability - both to get it, because it's so powerful, and to mess with your opponent's decision-making by making him refrain from doing certain things for fear of activating it. So again it's something you want at the center of your list-building, not just as an add-on.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Asurmen isn't just his bubble, he's also an extremely effective combat character - one of the few characters in the game that can easily get a 2++, making him an outstanding tank, and his sword has the burst potential to kill almost anything in the game, even things with high invulns. Sure, you usually won't - but the risk is always there, and that's going to make a smart opponent think twice.

But to get the most of that, you really do need a list built around the concept; I don't think just plonking Asurmen + 30+ DAs into any old list is a very good idea.

Also, avenging strikes is so powerful when it goes off on a mostly intact squad it is worth considering all kinds of gimmicks that interact with it - e.x. deliberately keeping 1MW explosion vehicles in close proximity so you can hopefully activate it on all your units for only 1 dead in each, or possibly even taking the phoenix gem on a wraithseer and then telling your opponent "strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" There are all sorts of ways you can use this ability - both to get it, because it's so powerful, and to mess with your opponent's decision-making by making him refrain from doing certain things for fear of activating it. So again it's something you want at the center of your list-building, not just as an add-on.

Yeah but then aren't you basically investing in a list that just plonks 30odd DAs and Asurmen on the table however you slice it?? I don't think they are going to be able to do the heavy lifting youre not going to get due to spending the pts on them and Asurmen as you're probably going to have to buy them some wave serpents which are pricey, tanky but not necessarily have a lot of dakka. And then he has to fight something worthwhile to earn his place.

I think he's suffering from the same problem AOK. His price pts does not reflect his threat potential as he needs to get into combat in a shooting game to make his pts back and his optimal targets are kind of limited.I just feel its not likely he will often get to fight something he wants to fight.

To be fair I need to use him and see how he does and how much of blender he is in practice and see how his support helps.

I've experimented with maugan ra but he didn't really do enough for his pts. But that was mainly not being bale to roll more than 2 for his wounds despite hitting all of the times lol

Well the way that list works you don't take wave serpents, you use the DAs as a bubblewrap for your characters. But it works because they're actually a very dangerous bubblewrap, and one that goes super saiyan mode if you start killing it, so your opponent has to target the squads one by one and wipe them or else they become incredibly powerful. A 9-man DA squad with avenging strikes activated shooting a doomed target is shooting 20 shots that hit on 2s, wound on 2s/3s/4s against T3/T4/T5-T7(!), rerolling wounds, with all the 5s and 6s hitting at -3 AP. That's crazy good damage for 113 points - so good that your opponent simply can't allow it to happen, so they can't shoot at a DA squad at all unless they're sure they can kill at least half the models.

It's funny you mention the Avatar because IMO this is the one list where he can actually work. The best thing about the Avatar is the morale immunity and charge reroll bubble, and you actually get good use out of that in the list, especially if you take a couple cheap banshee squads too (don't forget Asurmen's bubble gives a 5+ to other aspect warriors, too).

I definitely wouldn't take wave serpents, a lot of the attraction of the list is that you can cause your opponent to waste their anti-tank weapons shooting sub-optimal targets. So ideally you don't want to be taking anything that lets them make too much use out of that part of their army, at least not on T1.

I don't think it's top-tier competitive itself, but what it is is so totally different from any other eldar list that you can take a lot of opponents completely by surprise.

Yeah a cheeky biel-tan detachment with banshees AOK and asurmen seems fun.

Certainly not competitive... lol 11ppm T3 1W models against any kind of bolter...in the current meta :(

I'm planning to use AOK with 3x 16 man storm guardian with fusion squads to max out his fearless bubble utility. Thinking of giving him mark of hunter to see if I can fusion sword blast snipe some characters

At the moment I seem to circle back to a alitoic detachments just for for shadow specters. I like the models too much to drop them lol

I think it's actually more competitive than people think. Not absolutely top-tier, granted, but a lot better than people give it credit for. Someone did quite well with an Asurblob not that long ago at a major tournament.

I mean it is a dice game...

I am tempted to run 25DA + Asurmen tomorrow as i'm helping someone practice for ITC..

yukishiro1 wrote:
Asurmen isn't just his bubble, he's also an extremely effective combat character - one of the few characters in the game that can easily get a 2++, making him an outstanding tank, and his sword has the burst potential to kill almost anything in the game, even things with high invulns. Sure, you usually won't - but the risk is always there, and that's going to make a smart opponent think twice.

But to get the most of that, you really do need a list built around the concept; I don't think just plonking Asurmen + 30+ DAs into any old list is a very good idea.

Also, avenging strikes is so powerful when it goes off on a mostly intact squad it is worth considering all kinds of gimmicks that interact with it - e.x. deliberately keeping 1MW explosion vehicles in close proximity so you can hopefully activate it on all your units for only 1 dead in each, or possibly even taking the phoenix gem on a wraithseer and then telling your opponent "strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" There are all sorts of ways you can use this ability - both to get it, because it's so powerful, and to mess with your opponent's decision-making by making him refrain from doing certain things for fear of activating it. So again it's something you want at the center of your list-building, not just as an add-on.

Well despite appearances that list I posted wasn't really designed as an Asurmen list. I only put ass man in after I decided to go with 6x5 Avenger units to fill out my Wave Serpents, previously his slot was taken by an Autarch. It seemed rude not to put him in with that many avengers. I also like the idea of a 10 man Dark Reaper unit getting a 4++ save with protect on. Putting Protect on the man himself gives a 2++ in hand to hand which could catch people out.

I may run the list as 3x10 Avengers with Avenging Strikes for a bit of fun, but I don't expect that to be a thing that ever works. As powerful as AS could be I don't imagine it will ever be as useful as having twice the number of objective grabbers and 5 more command points.

Because I have too much time on my hands I decided to compare the damage output of 10 Avenging Strike DAs vs 2x5 Bladestorm DAs shooting marines:

Wounds suffered............Extra marines KIlled by 10x AS DAs
0..............................................-1.33
1...............................................1.89
2...............................................1.66
3...............................................1.44
4...............................................1.20
5...............................................0.56
6...............................................0.74
7...............................................0.51
8...............................................0.28
9...............................................0.05
10.............................................0.46
11............................................-0.83

So the Avenging Strikes unit starts off worse due to having one less Exarch and no Bladestorm. It also ends worse as it has one less wound. In between is the extra damage you get in exchange for less units and less CP.

I'd say that 2x5 Bladestorm Dire Avengers are better than 10 Avenging Strikes Dire Avengers. Unless the stars align and you get a little bit more damage, which still may not be worth the cost to CP.

Well, I wouldn't concentrate too much on the troops. They have their uses but the main work is usually done by other units.

Interesting math on the AS DAs. What are the base kill values? I.e. 1.89 extra kills compared to how many?

The cool thing about AS though in my mind is that it doesn't just make you great at killing marines, it makes you good at killing anything. The +1 to wound allows you to shred anything T7 or below, and even makes you dangerous to T8 (literally doubling your damage). Having a 113 point troops unit that is a legitimate threat to all toughness and all armor levels is pretty cool.

I agree it's not worth taking DAs in bigger squads if it costs you 4cp. But I don't think it would in any list I'd make.

I didn't keep the maths and can't be bothered to do it again I'm afraid. IIRC 2x5 DA kill 5 Marines.

They're a legitimate threat when they've taken just the right amount of damage. Which is something your opponent is in control of.

Yeah, there's no doubt that activating it is the hard part. A smart opponent will just not shoot them at all until they're ready to wipe the unit. I think to really make AS work you need a plan that takes advantage of that by using the threat of AS activation to force hard choices. I.e. either have a build that forces them to shoot the DAs or shoot nothing, or that makes it very risky for them to shoot something else they want to shoot (e.g. if you have three EC war walkers right by your DAs, that's a 1/2 chance of activating all three squads if your opponent kills them).

I definitely don't think AS is an optimal choice for DAs that are just filling out troop choices in a normal build.

I played illic nightspear today.. had sniping reaper autarch as well as 2 squads of rangers. Couldint even kill one 4W nurgle character between them lol...


But thats more dice and poor terrain board placing rather than anything else though. But I liked illic. His 2+/2+ to wound and hit is decent. not as versetile as reaper autarch for sure but maybe a good enough substitute. I wish he had some buff for rangers.

He's not bad, he just really suffers the same thing most early-codex snipers suffer from - that they just can't compete with the much more powerful eliminators. Somewhere down the line GW decided that units with snipe didn't have to pay a big power tax any more, so the old units feel left in the dust - not because they're terrible, just just because they're not nearly as good as the more recent versions.

I mean, he costs only 13 points less than an eliminator squad - 83% of the cost - and it's very, very hard to argue he provides 83% of the value.

yukishiro1 wrote:
He's not bad, he just really suffers the same thing most early-codex snipers suffer from - that they just can't compete with the almost absurdly more powerful eliminators. Somewhere down the line GW decided that units with snipe didn't have to pay a big power tax any more, so the old units feel left in the dust - not because they're terrible, just just because they're not nearly as good as the more recent versions.

It feels like he should give a buff to alitoic rangers or be an elite slot. Doesnt quite seem right as he is IMO. He's gone down in pts but still too expensive as you say compared to eliminators.

Yeah, I don't think just lowering his points cost even more is the right call. I mean you could make him 50 points and then he'd be efficient...but that's such a boring way of doing balance.

I'm not a huge fan of auras either, I think 8th has was too many auras already. I'd rather have something unique that's tied to his shooting - maybe any character hit by a shot from him gets -1 to their saving throws, or any character wounded halves their movement, or something like that?

Ilic makes Alaitoc units fearless if he's the warlord. It's not much but it's something.

I've played something similar several times and it's definitely effective. With so many CP I'd drop a serpent and put two of the avenger squads in the webway. That would give you points for an autarch and shuriken cannons for the serpents plus maybe vectored engines?
For traits I'd go for hail of doom and masters of concealment. Have you gone for bladestorm on the exarchs? I think it's amazing with hail of doom, those extra hits really add up, especially with overwatch.

I'll probably take bladestorm, but I might go with shredding fire if I take expert crafters. The maths is longwinded but IIRC they work out the same vs 4+ saves, then shredding fire is better against better saves, with bladestorm better against worse saves. Without expert crafters bladestorm is better.

MoC and Hail of doom seem slightly at odds with each other, as they turn off/on at 12". That might be OK though as MoC is good early game and HoD is better later.

Masters of concealment will help keep your vehicles alive to drop off the hail of doom troops which also helps the serpents dakka out a lot. It seems a bit of a counter intuitive combo but I've found it great in my games.

Masters of concealment and Expert crafters are a no-brainer in a take-all-comers Eldar list.

Expert crafters is great but it's of virtually no use for anti chaff units like guardians, windriders, hawks etc where hail of doom and masterful shots prove more useful. Masterful shots is great for reapers too, marines in cover are pretty resilient to reaper fire, forcing them back to a 5+ is pretty sweet.

I'm really torn between the two.

I run a lot of wraithlords/wraithseers and serpent with star cannons and bright lances so I feel masterful shots only really helps out the tempest reapers. Normal AT 3dmg shots tend to go into vehicles anyway which rarely get cover.

I think im going to go back to concealment. You are a scissors to somoenes rock if they are ignoring cover but against everyone else it makes a difference in survivability. DA with a 3+ are deceptively survivable. Also Ramgers are not limited to being on terrain.

I've switched to Masterful shots instead of concealment and got around the cover issue by trying to get as many invulnerable saves as possible.

I think my meta skews me toward that though as we tend to have a bit more scenery than the average. Also a lot of MEQ in my group and leaving them with 6 saves when they're in cover is too good when you're packing star and shuriken cannons.

In regards to rangers, even when they're in cover they still die like the chaff that they are. I've tried Illic and up to 15 rangers in many combos and they just don't work for me. DA's in any combo does work for me every time.

I find it's so easy to get a cover save from normal terrain that MoC is only really useful for flyers and maybe things that want to move towards the enemy, like close combat wraithlords or wave serpents. Even then they're only benefiting for a turn. I suppose that if your normal tables are sparse on terrain then MoC would be useful, but for fire-support tanks it's usually trivially easy to hover partially over a ruin and then get obscured by other things.

kryczek wrote:
I've switched to Masterful shots instead of concealment and got around the cover issue by trying to get as many invulnerable saves as possible.

I think my meta skews me toward that though as we tend to have a bit more scenery than the average. Also a lot of MEQ in my group and leaving them with 6 saves when they're in cover is too good when you're packing star and shuriken cannons.

In regards to rangers, even when they're in cover they still die like the chaff that they are. I've tried Illic and up to 15 rangers in many combos and they just don't work for me. DA's in any combo does work for me every time.

True but when they are alitoic you can make them a 6 to hit which is nice to sink disproportionate amount of firepower into them if they want to deny you the pts.. I think in my last 5 games when I actually took rangers nobody shot at them more than once.

Just wondering if anyone has tried a quickened guardian bomb for a first turn banzai across the board?
I'd like to give it a go soon but I've got a few other things I want to try out first.

kingheff wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has tried a quickened guardian bomb for a first turn banzai across the board?
I'd like to give it a go soon but I've got a few other things I want to try out first.

I haven't thought about it, but why would you? Being in the webway means they can't get shot to pieces and are guaranteed to get a full volley off when they come in? For 1 CP it just seems the far superior option

kingheff wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has tried a quickened guardian bomb for a first turn banzai across the board?
I'd like to give it a go soon but I've got a few other things I want to try out first.

Well, if you think an alpha strike is useful, go for it.
Against Tau, annihilating marker lights is definitely useful.

Annihilating what? Tau use characters and strat for markers nowadays.

Yeah, I was thinking about an alpha strike. Or possibly if you want something else in the webway, maybe even another guardian bomb.
With the 4++ strat being so cheap and so many decent buffs that can be used to make them really annoying to remove they can absorb lots more enemy firepower than their points suggest.