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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am less bothered by the rules to be honest that the constant, relentless Marine releases partly due to be spread across how many sub sub factions.....

In addition if there was any sign of them bothering to release a single supplement for a Sept, Craftworld, Dynasty, Hive Fleet, Order, Kabal, Kult, Coven, Masque..... it might be little more palatable.

Same if the new Campign books are obviously not just a series of appendix to the Marine Codex/s

I agree with this 100%. I'm more bothered that Marines just seem to be getting everything at the moment. The newest models. The newest rules. The best rules. The most in depth rules. The most varied rules. The most fun rules.

It would be nice for GW to show love elsewhere. I am certain it would lead to greater profits too, over time.

The campaign books are beginning to look like one big salt mine.

Pa1 didn't really do anything eldar players were looking for. Pa2 gave some great stuff to the legions but it was overshadowed by what gw gave to sm in the same book. I'd say that the next book is going to be worse for the tyranids when compared to the ba. Same for orks in the next book against sw.

It's starting to feel like chaos and xenos are fighting over space marine's crumbs.

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
What we have to keep in mind and what is very hard to account for: Marines are simply more popular than other factions.

I'm not commenting on the tournament viability for now, but I want people to consider that if any kind of Codex compliant Chapter is getting strong rules, it is simply that more likely to see people taking Marines to tournaments than other armies.

Before the new codex and supplements Marines represented 4-5% of the tournament lists.

I'll agree that marines are more popular than any other faction, but let's not pretend that every player has a hidden stash of Marines somewhere, it simply isn't the case. And even if they have a stash of Marines somewhere, the fact is that in normal situations they'd have to make a working list out of what they have (this list might not be optimal). The new supplements have provided Marine players with a wealth of many different, top tier competitive lists to create with almost any unit having a useful function.

Realistcally. Without knowing for sure. I wouldn't be surpised if over 50% of players have a marine army of at least 1000 points. 40% or more probably have complete armies. Probably up to a quarter of players marines are their largest army. OFC this is all just made up out of thin air but that is about what I believe to be true and it matches my group of players.

This wouldn't surprise me either. Marines have been in virtually every starter set for at least two decades (or maybe all of them?) - if you're interested in 40k, it's very easy to pick up a small collection of Marine models basically by accident. It's a lot easier to flesh out a list when you're not starting from scratch.

Those starter kits also make marines significantly cheaper to buy on the secondary market. Lots of people join the hobby with space marines and if they don't stay around will probably sell their models which also floods the secondary market. Cheaper models lowers the barrier to competitive lists and chasing the meta. The different sub factions of marines don't always overlap on competitive units so the market dries up a lot slower than say Tau drones. Add in the fact that marines are already relatively money to point efficient and chasing the meta gets that much easier.

I agree though that if the supplements were released over say 3 weeks instead of 3 months then it would've been less irritating. Doesn't help that marine players complain that their codex is out of date because they got theirs first while everyone else was stuck on indexes. Its kind of like saying you deserve a second steak because yours got cold while everyone else was still waiting for their burger.

The point I want to make is that attendance numbers are likely to be inflated for Marines and not just because of strong rules.

If Genestealer Cults would get the exact same rules as Space Marines, there would likely still more Marine players attending tournaments because of faction popularity and availability.

 catbarf wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results

For October and November so far;

Imperial Fists - 59.35% win rate
Iron Hands - 68.14% win rate
Raven Guard - 55.65% win rate
Salamanders - 49.02% win rate
Ultramarines - 50.78% win rate
White Scars - 57.45% win rate

All of those are pretty damn high, bar Ultramarines and Salamanders (which didn't have their supplement for most of the data set).

I'd like to point out that those values get skewed somewhat in that they're also facing other SM players; if you filter out the SM-on-SM fights then all the percentages climb significantly.

Ultramarines have an average win rate because they get clubbed by IH/IF/WS/RG and in turn club everyone else; their ~50% does not reflect parity with the non-SM factions.

Uhhh...I see where you are coming from but if Ultras loss at a high rate to ironhands it is clear they aren't anywhere near as powerful as ironhands. This also reduces their chance of winning against ANY army. Ultras are about where marines should be IMO through actually playing the game. Before Ultras were auto lose vs CWE - now I have a chance to win against CWE. Tau is still almost autowin unless I tailor a list. They are still at a top level of power but they stand on the same ground as other high powered armies like CWE/Tau/Knights...This is okay...IMO this is the level that every army should be balanced to.

Well the first buff all Marine players get is the Nu Marines. Primaris should be a seperate army, they play differently than the old line. Tougher units, flyi g and hovering, and all the funs are the same. Its a different army. Marine armies have access to both units. Having twice the choices as other factions is a huge buff.

They have their regular chapter tatics, then beta bolters, shock assult. Fine cool buffs. But doctrines and super doctrines on top of that is just too much.

Imagine if Xenos had doctrines and super doctrines.

Ultras should be baseline marines, I agree. They still feel like they're tipping the scales into "too good" right now.

Like I was doing pretty good before the book. Then my army got piles of free bonuses, free extra rules, point cuts, a replacement of stratagems with better/cheaper stratagems, some fantastic relic choices, etc.

The only things I can think of that got worse are Guilliman losing his wound rerolls and a Chaplain not automatically giving re-rolls to hit (which instead was replaced with some awesome abilities that I have to roll for instead).

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
What we have to keep in mind and what is very hard to account for: Marines are simply more popular than other factions.

I'm not commenting on the tournament viability for now, but I want people to consider that if any kind of Codex compliant Chapter is getting strong rules, it is simply that more likely to see people taking Marines to tournaments than other armies.

Before the new codex and supplements Marines represented 4-5% of the tournament lists.

I'll agree that marines are more popular than any other faction, but let's not pretend that every player has a hidden stash of Marines somewhere, it simply isn't the case. And even if they have a stash of Marines somewhere, the fact is that in normal situations they'd have to make a working list out of what they have (this list might not be optimal). The new supplements have provided Marine players with a wealth of many different, top tier competitive lists to create with almost any unit having a useful function.

Realistcally. Without knowing for sure. I wouldn't be surpised if over 50% of players have a marine army of at least 1000 points. 40% or more probably have complete armies. Probably up to a quarter of players marines are their largest army. OFC this is all just made up out of thin air but that is about what I believe to be true and it matches my group of players.

This wouldn't surprise me either. Marines have been in virtually every starter set for at least two decades (or maybe all of them?) - if you're interested in 40k, it's very easy to pick up a small collection of Marine models basically by accident. It's a lot easier to flesh out a list when you're not starting from scratch.

Those starter kits also make marines significantly cheaper to buy on the secondary market. Lots of people join the hobby with space marines and if they don't stay around will probably sell their models which also floods the secondary market. Cheaper models lowers the barrier to competitive lists and chasing the meta. The different sub factions of marines don't always overlap on competitive units so the market dries up a lot slower than say Tau drones. Add in the fact that marines are already relatively money to point efficient and chasing the meta gets that much easier.

I agree though that if the supplements were released over say 3 weeks instead of 3 months then it would've been less irritating. Doesn't help that marine players complain that their codex is out of date because they got theirs first while everyone else was stuck on indexes. Its kind of like saying you deserve a second steak because yours got cold while everyone else was still waiting for their burger.

When the index they were using were superior to the codex marines got...your entire point moot. Marines were unquestionable bottom tier. Only greyknights were truely worse.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Percentage of all 4-0 players that are Iron Hands; 27% of total 4-0 players. Almost a third of the 4-0 lists at any given tournament are Iron Hands.

Huh. With a 6% gap you see "almost 1/3". At only a +2% difference I see "slightly more than 1/4".

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
What we have to keep in mind and what is very hard to account for: Marines are simply more popular than other factions.

I'm not commenting on the tournament viability for now, but I want people to consider that if any kind of Codex compliant Chapter is getting strong rules, it is simply that more likely to see people taking Marines to tournaments than other armies.

Before the new codex and supplements Marines represented 4-5% of the tournament lists.

I'll agree that marines are more popular than any other faction, but let's not pretend that every player has a hidden stash of Marines somewhere, it simply isn't the case. And even if they have a stash of Marines somewhere, the fact is that in normal situations they'd have to make a working list out of what they have (this list might not be optimal). The new supplements have provided Marine players with a wealth of many different, top tier competitive lists to create with almost any unit having a useful function.

Realistcally. Without knowing for sure. I wouldn't be surpised if over 50% of players have a marine army of at least 1000 points. 40% or more probably have complete armies. Probably up to a quarter of players marines are their largest army. OFC this is all just made up out of thin air but that is about what I believe to be true and it matches my group of players.

This wouldn't surprise me either. Marines have been in virtually every starter set for at least two decades (or maybe all of them?) - if you're interested in 40k, it's very easy to pick up a small collection of Marine models basically by accident. It's a lot easier to flesh out a list when you're not starting from scratch.

Those starter kits also make marines significantly cheaper to buy on the secondary market. Lots of people join the hobby with space marines and if they don't stay around will probably sell their models which also floods the secondary market. Cheaper models lowers the barrier to competitive lists and chasing the meta. The different sub factions of marines don't always overlap on competitive units so the market dries up a lot slower than say Tau drones. Add in the fact that marines are already relatively money to point efficient and chasing the meta gets that much easier.

I agree though that if the supplements were released over say 3 weeks instead of 3 months then it would've been less irritating. Doesn't help that marine players complain that their codex is out of date because they got theirs first while everyone else was stuck on indexes. Its kind of like saying you deserve a second steak because yours got cold while everyone else was still waiting for their burger.

When the index they were using were superior to the codex marines got...your entire point moot. Marines were unquestionable bottom tier. Only greyknights were truely worse.

What index armies consistently beat Codex armies? Even the Imperial Soup armies tended to lean on Gulliman before he got repeated nerfs. Malefic lords were souped in chaos lists, but CSM got the second codex. I guess ork boy spam lists were competitive, but generally armies weren't competitive until their codex came out.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Show me the data. I can't argue with data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dmhagOert4 This is where I've got my info from.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results

For October and November so far;

Imperial Fists - 59.35% win rate
Iron Hands - 68.14% win rate
Raven Guard - 55.65% win rate
Salamanders - 49.02% win rate
Ultramarines - 50.78% win rate
White Scars - 57.45% win rate

All of those are pretty damn high, bar Ultramarines and Salamanders (which didn't have their supplement for most of the data set).

Another way to look at this: win rates of other factions.

Only Sisters, Eldar, Mechanicus, Orks and Tau have > 50% win rates, the average is ~ 51% compared to 57% overall for Astartes.

If NuMarines were truly OP, I'd expect to see a larger margin. OTOH, from a subfaction perspective, Iron Hands are almost at a 70% win rate, and are the most frequently used sub-faction.

Have to think about what that means. Is it that Iron Hands really are that good, or that the rest of the meta hasn't adapted, or something else entirely?

The win rates for those factions you've mentioned has (Eldar, Mechanicus, Orks) has dropped significantly in recent months. See above video - Orks went from 55% (ish) to 48%. That in itself isn't too bad (if it wasn't such a rapid drop) but their TWiP (aka percentage of 4-0 players) and first loss has gotten much worse also. Your stats seem from legacy wins, not October and November only.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
The campaign books are beginning to look like one big salt mine.

Pa1 didn't really do anything eldar players were looking for. Pa2 gave some great stuff to the legions but it was overshadowed by what gw gave to sm in the same book. I'd say that the next book is going to be worse for the tyranids when compared to the ba. Same for orks in the next book against sw.

It's starting to feel like chaos and xenos are fighting over space marine's crumbs.

Agreed, the release and content of these PA volumes is actually having a negative impact on the community. There's only so often a faction can play second fiddle to Marines. It becomes too much. If Nids are screwed over in the next book compared to Marines, I fear Xenos players will walk (if they haven't already).

ccs wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Percentage of all 4-0 players that are Iron Hands; 27% of total 4-0 players. Almost a third of the 4-0 lists at any given tournament are Iron Hands.

Huh. With a 6% gap you see "almost 1/3". At only a +2% difference I see "slightly more than 1/4".

OK? Call it just over 25% if you like. It's still 2.5 times the number of players. That is fethed up.

Something to think of on top of just the raw power levels here is how many new rules and interactions these supplements bring to the table, that everyone has to keep track of and analyze. In 4E/5E, I had pretty much every codex and FW book memorized, I could look at any model and tell you what every piece of WYSIWYG wargear did on it. I could tell you every army's special rules and know every statline and how all the different army's unique mechanics functioned.

At this point? You need about as much mental space dedicated to just the "codex adherent" Space Marine armies in 8E as you did the whole game in earlier editions, particularly given the length of interaction chains that abilities work from now (e.g. the new mono-army mechanics dictating use of new chapter trait abilities). What started relatively cleanly at the start of 8E has rapidly devolved back into adding gobs of power-ramping complexity portray "character" without adding much of anything to tabletop tactical depth, that makes it very hard to keep track of and remember everything even for relatively dedicated players.

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
What we have to keep in mind and what is very hard to account for: Marines are simply more popular than other factions.

I'm not commenting on the tournament viability for now, but I want people to consider that if any kind of Codex compliant Chapter is getting strong rules, it is simply that more likely to see people taking Marines to tournaments than other armies.

Before the new codex and supplements Marines represented 4-5% of the tournament lists.

I'll agree that marines are more popular than any other faction, but let's not pretend that every player has a hidden stash of Marines somewhere, it simply isn't the case. And even if they have a stash of Marines somewhere, the fact is that in normal situations they'd have to make a working list out of what they have (this list might not be optimal). The new supplements have provided Marine players with a wealth of many different, top tier competitive lists to create with almost any unit having a useful function.

Realistcally. Without knowing for sure. I wouldn't be surpised if over 50% of players have a marine army of at least 1000 points. 40% or more probably have complete armies. Probably up to a quarter of players marines are their largest army. OFC this is all just made up out of thin air but that is about what I believe to be true and it matches my group of players.

This wouldn't surprise me either. Marines have been in virtually every starter set for at least two decades (or maybe all of them?) - if you're interested in 40k, it's very easy to pick up a small collection of Marine models basically by accident. It's a lot easier to flesh out a list when you're not starting from scratch.

Those starter kits also make marines significantly cheaper to buy on the secondary market. Lots of people join the hobby with space marines and if they don't stay around will probably sell their models which also floods the secondary market. Cheaper models lowers the barrier to competitive lists and chasing the meta. The different sub factions of marines don't always overlap on competitive units so the market dries up a lot slower than say Tau drones. Add in the fact that marines are already relatively money to point efficient and chasing the meta gets that much easier.

I agree though that if the supplements were released over say 3 weeks instead of 3 months then it would've been less irritating. Doesn't help that marine players complain that their codex is out of date because they got theirs first while everyone else was stuck on indexes. Its kind of like saying you deserve a second steak because yours got cold while everyone else was still waiting for their burger.

When the index they were using were superior to the codex marines got...your entire point moot. Marines were unquestionable bottom tier. Only greyknights were truely worse.

What index armies consistently beat Codex armies? Even the Imperial Soup armies tended to lean on Gulliman before he got repeated nerfs. Malefic lords were souped in chaos lists, but CSM got the second codex. I guess ork boy spam lists were competitive, but generally armies weren't competitive until their codex came out.

Beat marines?

Sisters and orks come to mind immediately. I'm sure tau did too. As index. Space marines codex was basically exactly the same as the index except a few units went UP in price and you got access to some of the worst relics warlord traits and stratagems the game has ever seen. Then once the other codex came out they lost to everyone. AM/CWE/DG/Tau all beat them without effort. Knights? LOL.

Nu-Marines are perfectly balanced - assuming you are talking about the balance between popularity and profit.

Nerf Iron Hands, let meta settle, nerf next applicable offender.

I don't think nerfing anything other than Iron Hands is called for until such a nerf has taken place. The presence of Iron Hands could be holding other lists back that would be much more viable if IH were out of the picture. One variable at a time, otherwise you're just flailing in the dark.

I don't see what the big deal with marines is, marines can beat them just fine, seems balanced to me.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Nerf Iron Hands, let meta settle, nerf next applicable offender.

I don't think nerfing anything other than Iron Hands is called for until such a nerf has taken place. The presence of Iron Hands could be holding other lists back that would be much more viable if IH were out of the picture. One variable at a time, otherwise you're just flailing in the dark.

IF are obviously OP too. Blanket ignore cover - exploding 6's and +1 damage to vehicles is absurd. Ironhands too obviously to even more of a degree.

Not gonna quote the whole thing, but yeah sisters trounced moat marine builds in their index rules. At least pre-Ro3.

Super Doctrines should not exist, period.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Super Doctrines should not exist, period.

Yes I agree - Not to bee too fanboy like here but. Ultramarines superdoctrine should just be their chapter tactic...Because they have no fcking chapter tactic. It would even be okay if super-doctrines remained provided they were very limited in they things they effect.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Something to think of on top of just the raw power levels here is how many new rules and interactions these supplements bring to the table, that everyone has to keep track of and analyze. In 4E/5E, I had pretty much every codex and FW book memorized, I could look at any model and tell you what every piece of WYSIWYG wargear did on it. I could tell you every army's special rules and know every statline and how all the different army's unique mechanics functioned.

At this point? You need about as much mental space dedicated to just the "codex adherent" Space Marine armies in 8E as you did the whole game in earlier editions, particularly given the length of interaction chains that abilities work from now (e.g. the new mono-army mechanics dictating use of new chapter trait abilities). What started relatively cleanly at the start of 8E has rapidly devolved back into adding gobs of power-ramping complexity portray "character" without adding much of anything to tabletop tactical depth, that makes it very hard to keep track of and remember everything even for relatively dedicated players.

“More complexity. Less depth.”

This is the 8th edition design mantra.

Pancakey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Something to think of on top of just the raw power levels here is how many new rules and interactions these supplements bring to the table, that everyone has to keep track of and analyze. In 4E/5E, I had pretty much every codex and FW book memorized, I could look at any model and tell you what every piece of WYSIWYG wargear did on it. I could tell you every army's special rules and know every statline and how all the different army's unique mechanics functioned.

At this point? You need about as much mental space dedicated to just the "codex adherent" Space Marine armies in 8E as you did the whole game in earlier editions, particularly given the length of interaction chains that abilities work from now (e.g. the new mono-army mechanics dictating use of new chapter trait abilities). What started relatively cleanly at the start of 8E has rapidly devolved back into adding gobs of power-ramping complexity portray "character" without adding much of anything to tabletop tactical depth, that makes it very hard to keep track of and remember everything even for relatively dedicated players.

“More complexity. Less depth.”

This is the 8th edition design mantra.

It also removes a lot of design space imo, due to turning the game into spam unit combinatiion X with subtrait y.

I normally call it complication vs complexity.

8th is played far more on the spreadsheet than at the table.

Headlss wrote:
I normally call it complication vs complexity.

8th is played far more on the spreadsheet than at the table.

TBF 40k allways had that issue, and with formations in 7th it got exagerated to the point where many didn't want anyhting to do with it anymore.
7th however had the advantages of more mechanics, / terrain interactions. meanwhile 8th has nothing really in that regard, which exemplifies the issue alot more. Add Stratagems and traits to that mixture and a reckless powerspike or two and you have the salad we get now.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Something to think of on top of just the raw power levels here is how many new rules and interactions these supplements bring to the table, that everyone has to keep track of and analyze. In 4E/5E, I had pretty much every codex and FW book memorized, I could look at any model and tell you what every piece of WYSIWYG wargear did on it. I could tell you every army's special rules and know every statline and how all the different army's unique mechanics functioned.

At this point? You need about as much mental space dedicated to just the "codex adherent" Space Marine armies in 8E as you did the whole game in earlier editions, particularly given the length of interaction chains that abilities work from now (e.g. the new mono-army mechanics dictating use of new chapter trait abilities). What started relatively cleanly at the start of 8E has rapidly devolved back into adding gobs of power-ramping complexity portray "character" without adding much of anything to tabletop tactical depth, that makes it very hard to keep track of and remember everything even for relatively dedicated players.

“More complexity. Less depth.”

This is the 8th edition design mantra.

It also removes a lot of design space imo, due to turning the game into spam unit combinatiion X with subtrait y.

7th edition died for this... But really 8th was hailed as this great revival of 40k with cleaned up rules "the best 40k has ever been" and all that. Now it looks like it's falling back into bad habits hardcore.

1st nerf would be super tactics or vanilla +1 ap.

Ravenguard re-deploy warlord strat is too good, nerf that and RG are reasonable.

Whitescars double move strat is too powerful. Get rid of that and they should be back to reasonable.

IF and IH get too much.
Exploding 6s, ignore cover and +1 damage vs vehicles is way too much. Limit +1 damage to bolt weapons. Ignore cover shouldn't be an army wide trait (eldar/dark eldar you guys need this nerfed too).
IH should get re-roll 1's for vehicle mounted heavy weapons and no movement penalty for infantry heavy weapons (not both).

Sallies need more because right now they have the least chapter identity. The +1 to wound strat is broken and non-thematic or fluffy. Remove it. Turn their protectors strat into the IH absorb wounds. Default chapter trait should include a range bonus to flame weapons and ability to advance and fire heavy flamers.

UM seem pretty reasonable. Even double shooting aggressors are not that scary without the extra -1 ap.

Re-work the successors. +3" range and master artisans should be chapter locked (or master artisans can't be combined with any other successor trait).

I don't like the idea of changing points of units because one chapter breaks them (assault cents/levi dreads). It was endlessly frustrating as a non-ultras player that everything was costed as if it were in a gulliman bubble. That being said I think TFCs and elems could use a point bump.

GW doesn't seem to understand the new system and how it works with AP (costing of 3+ armor and the new doctrine system).

While they are making changes marine plasma needs to do 1 MW to the unit on a natural 1.

I don't think any of this is going to happen. I'm not sure GW is that upset about it until bad rules impact their bottom line although I think that once the damage gets that far along it may be too late to fix.

I haven't gone to a tournament since the marine supplements dropped. I realized that playing my non-codex marines just wasn't viable so I decided to step away. I'm now finding harder and harder to get re-engaged with the game and I've seen the tournament numbers in my meta drop off as well. I've gone from buying a kit a month (at least) to just painting some of my backlog (and even that hobby engagement is reducing).

 Vankraken wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Something to think of on top of just the raw power levels here is how many new rules and interactions these supplements bring to the table, that everyone has to keep track of and analyze. In 4E/5E, I had pretty much every codex and FW book memorized, I could look at any model and tell you what every piece of WYSIWYG wargear did on it. I could tell you every army's special rules and know every statline and how all the different army's unique mechanics functioned.

At this point? You need about as much mental space dedicated to just the "codex adherent" Space Marine armies in 8E as you did the whole game in earlier editions, particularly given the length of interaction chains that abilities work from now (e.g. the new mono-army mechanics dictating use of new chapter trait abilities). What started relatively cleanly at the start of 8E has rapidly devolved back into adding gobs of power-ramping complexity portray "character" without adding much of anything to tabletop tactical depth, that makes it very hard to keep track of and remember everything even for relatively dedicated players.

“More complexity. Less depth.”

This is the 8th edition design mantra.

It also removes a lot of design space imo, due to turning the game into spam unit combinatiion X with subtrait y.

7th edition died for this... But really 8th was hailed as this great revival of 40k with cleaned up rules "the best 40k has ever been" and all that. Now it looks like it's falling back into bad habits hardcore.

122 rulesources sofar, that has 7th beat infact.

And yes 7th was a clusterfeth, but the core was less of an issue then in 8th , and now we more or less get the worst part of7th ontop of 8th core with his inadequacies.

As much as dakkadakka would make you believe, 8th is going strong and is absolutely fine to play it, both in a competitive and a casual setting.

Yeah the most OP stuff is always a pain in the arse to fight agaisnt but thats the same for all editions. The reality is that the balance of 8th, both in the medium and lower tiers is much better than in past editions, and makes casual playing much more enjoyable.

Specially when you factor player skill.

 Galas wrote:
As much as dakkadakka would make you believe, 8th is going strong and is absolutely fine to play it, both in a competitive and a casual setting.

Yeah the most OP stuff is always a pain in the arse to fight agaisnt but thats the same for all editions. The reality is that the balance of 8th, both in the medium and lower tiers is much better than in past editions, and makes casual playing much more enjoyable.

Specially when you factor player skill.

It's my anecdotal impression that this has been true... up until the current Marine meta. It was pretty easy to avoid playing against the Imperial Guard/Knight/Smashcaptain list or Ynnari if you stayed away from tournaments. Staying away from Marines entirely is quite a lot trickier, and they're noticeably more powerful than other armies to upset even casual players.

 Galas wrote:
As much as dakkadakka would make you believe, 8th is going strong and is absolutely fine to play it, both in a competitive and a casual setting.

Yeah the most OP stuff is always a pain in the arse to fight agaisnt but thats the same for all editions. The reality is that the balance of 8th, both in the medium and lower tiers is much better than in past editions, and makes casual playing much more enjoyable.

Specially when you factor player skill.

Sure, it's better. But the teasing of "way better" and semi-balance across most factions make the discrepancies glaring. Or to put it another way, the old "well you just can't balance 40K" argument from 7th has been cut to pieces this addition by seemingly good-faith efforts by GW that show you can, in fact, have a reasonably balanced game or at least the potential for one. Agree that the game is in a much better place.

Part of the issue with the space marine codecies is that they have strayed into "untouchable" territory...same as a lot of the OP 7th ed codecies and formations. Weapons that statistically always hit, basic troops that ignore most armor saves, free buffs, unkillable units, low points costs, abilities every other army has been restricted from...it's all there. The difference is that now, we (hopefully) have FAQs to fix problems but there is a lot of the same old concern popping up: that GW doesn't fully realize just how this game is played.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am less bothered by the rules to be honest that the constant, relentless Marine releases partly due to be spread across how many sub sub factions.....

In addition if there was any sign of them bothering to release a single supplement for a Sept, Craftworld, Dynasty, Hive Fleet, Order, Kabal, Kult, Coven, Masque..... it might be little more palatable.

Same if the new Campign books are obviously not just a series of appendix to the Marine Codex/s

I agree with this 100%. I'm more bothered that Marines just seem to be getting everything at the moment. The newest models. The newest rules. The best rules. The most in depth rules. The most varied rules. The most fun rules.

It would be nice for GW to show love elsewhere. I am certain it would lead to greater profits too, over time.

The campaign books are beginning to look like one big salt mine.

Pa1 didn't really do anything eldar players were looking for. Pa2 gave some great stuff to the legions but it was overshadowed by what gw gave to sm in the same book. I'd say that the next book is going to be worse for the tyranids when compared to the ba. Same for orks in the next book against sw.

It's starting to feel like chaos and xenos are fighting over space marine's crumbs.

Yeah it was kind of sad looking at the Chaos book. Now those were exciting strats and relics that were completely missing from PA.

Night Lords and Alpha Legion really stood out for the clever and fluffy rules they got. This is far better than PA, especially the Ynnari stuff where the designer tries to be "clever", ie its written the same way someone would write an insurance policy - too many clauses and conditions to be useful

 Galas wrote:
As much as dakkadakka would make you believe, 8th is going strong and is absolutely fine to play it, both in a competitive and a casual setting.

Yeah the most OP stuff is always a pain in the arse to fight agaisnt but thats the same for all editions. The reality is that the balance of 8th, both in the medium and lower tiers is much better than in past editions, and makes casual playing much more enjoyable.

Specially when you factor player skill.

This would be true if it weren't for the layers of doctrines and abilities giving every SM weapon ridiculously good profiles, ie your standard heavy bolter can be turned into a AP -2 lawnmower with rerolls and no moving penalty. Or exploding hits and extra damage for the other guys.

It's not a specific unit or synergy this time. it's the entire structure of the marine armies. Way too many modifiers.

Some guy in a beer and pretzels game no longer has any issue shifting your guys off cover and objectives when intercessors can throw out AP -2/3.