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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

 fraser1191 wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
There was a guy on here that said people got too complacent with marines being an easy win. I genuinely think that theory holds water


For years a lot of competitive tournament players have gloated about how easy it is for their army to crush space marines.

Suddenly it's not so easy and we're in a crisis.

This is, quite honestly, absolutely hilarious to me.


I too find it funny, mostly because all the "how to fix marines" threads did a 180, not to mention all the well marines have X so we should have X, but that'll never go away


In this thread: Resident Marine Player Surprised That Other People Want Unique Rules For Their Unique Factions


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Darsath wrote:
Again, anecdotal evidence doesn't amount to much here. And as I've said, Space Marines having both a high play rate and a high win rate (exceeding the Ynarri non-sense earlier in the edition) is pretty concrete evidence to disprove your theory.


Let's take a stroll down memory lane.

These are 4 week periods of armies 51% or better from Feb to Aug from 40kstats.com (that's as far back as he goes).
Spoiler:


And this is the latest 4 week period:
Spoiler:


- SNIP -


That faction spread is disgusting, if this game was "Balanced" we'd see a lot more even spread.
Marines are three times as popular as the next popular list. I'm going to barf.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 00:06:35


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
tulun wrote:
I hope people also understand in this discussion that in casual, or semi-casual play, most codices are fine.

If you're just literally fielding your models without much account for maximizing your ability to destroy your opponent, space marines (and even the supplements) are likely fine, or fine enough to not really care about.

All this discussion is about tournament playing, or WAAC.


I think the issue is the opposite. It is easy for a casual player to be oppressive with marines, which drives the perception even more.


It’s an S tier army, but what is oppressive here?

Like, if casual players are just fielding the crap they own, including tactical marines and stuff, not sure it’s all that bad.

One executioner is tough. 3 is oppressive.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





tulun wrote:


It’s an S tier army, but what is oppressive here?

Like, if casual players are just fielding the crap they own, including tactical marines and stuff, not sure it’s all that bad.

One executioner is tough. 3 is oppressive.


It's going to be more on the IH and IF end, really. It creates a dynamic where most units have no downside.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:


That’s not fair using the real statistics,history and reality against them


Well, be careful. There are a lot of factors to these issues. Marines are likely super strong, because they're easily accessible. Ynnari took some coordination to play and Castellans could be subject to bad rolls.

Marines need toning down, but it matters which pieces of it. It disturbs me quite a bit that people are talking about bolt rifle intercessors like they haven't been in their current state since January.

The Heavy Weapon level AP (doctrines) and additional trait/super doctrine buff have been in place since the new year. Huh. Odd.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 Eonfuzz wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
There was a guy on here that said people got too complacent with marines being an easy win. I genuinely think that theory holds water


For years a lot of competitive tournament players have gloated about how easy it is for their army to crush space marines.

Suddenly it's not so easy and we're in a crisis.

This is, quite honestly, absolutely hilarious to me.


I too find it funny, mostly because all the "how to fix marines" threads did a 180, not to mention all the well marines have X so we should have X, but that'll never go away


In this thread: Resident Marine Player Surprised That Other People Want Unique Rules For Their Unique Factions


I guess I shouldn't have used marines specifically. No matter which faction it is someone will talk about how faction X has something they don't. This time it happens to be marines
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





 fraser1191 wrote:
I guess I shouldn't have used marines specifically. No matter which faction it is someone will talk about how faction X has something they don't. This time it happens to be marines


Willing to bet we'll see something like it in the future for other factions, and there will be complaints about Marines still.

I very much doubt they'll get "Codex Supplement: Biel Tan/Tau Sept Boogaloo/Necron Dynasty Skelewankh like we have with chapters, maybe more stuff consolidated into a single book.

And that will STILL get complaints.

Imagine their complaint being that they don't have to spend more money on multiple books.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Eldarain wrote:

The Heavy Weapon level AP (doctrines) and additional trait/super doctrine buff have been in place since the new year. Huh. Odd.


Except that isn't what some people have been referencing. Feel free to read up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 03:16:40


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
tulun wrote:


It’s an S tier army, but what is oppressive here?

Like, if casual players are just fielding the crap they own, including tactical marines and stuff, not sure it’s all that bad.

One executioner is tough. 3 is oppressive.


It's going to be more on the IH and IF end, really. It creates a dynamic where most units have no downside.


Marines are supposed be a swiss army knife, but yeah. You won't get much argument from me the army is ridiculous, especially when you combo super doctrines with the supplements.

Optimization does make a big difference, though. Casual lists can be downright bad in overall synergy. But I will grant a casual list with an S tier army (or SS tier like Iron Hands seems to be) could accidentally be really good. This is probably less true of many other armies.

   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






I think what people are conveniently forgetting is that a casual marine player who brings an unoptimised list will be playing against, we should assume, another casual player that has also brought an unoptimised list. Surely we aren't doubting that the marine books are powerful even when taken in "worse" lists?

I've seen it a few times now where I play - none marine players are starting to dwindle. It might be for a number of reasons such as the relentless marine model releases, the primary focus on marines by GW and the fact that when they bring their list to play they get rekd by Marines. Even when they aren't obliterated it seems as though players just don't feel that the game is balanced when playing against marines. We must have all overheard the same sort of questions getting asked during games at our clubs right? "They get HOW MANY buffs now?" "They can do that too?" "This seems silly, [insert marine unit] should have died." "I didn't realise they did that and that." "Wow, that's one of your stratagems, I wish [insert none marine faction here] did that."

Regardless, we should always assume as a minimum when discussing balance that the players are of equal skill. I've experienced more casual marine lists and they have felt very, very obnoxious. The problem isn't unique to tournament play.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Also this notion that their sudden appearance and dominance is due to the ubiquity of collections is nonsense. Tournament goers will gravitate to what is most egregious.

I would accept it as a reason back in the summer but it is far more prevalent and systemic at this point.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in bg
Dakka Veteran




Karol wrote:
How did those new marines impact the tournament grey knights lists?


Every power armor faction WR is rising, GK are doing better than ever, compared to Nids who have something like 35% WR.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:

The Heavy Weapon level AP (doctrines) and additional trait/super doctrine buff have been in place since the new year. Huh. Odd.


Except that isn't what some people have been referencing. Feel free to read up.


I don't know what you're referring to. The closest thing I could find was a post detailing how all the excessive buffs given to marines make PEQ dominant at owning the mid table and stating that even if reverted would still hold a slight edge.

Your statement that they exist now as they did 11 months ago remains absurd.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in de
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




Bamberg / Erlangen

 Eldarain wrote:
Also this notion that their sudden appearance and dominance is due to the ubiquity of collections is nonsense. Tournament goers will gravitate to what is most egregious.

I would accept it as a reason back in the summer but it is far more prevalent and systemic at this point.
This is only half the reason that was debated. The sudden appearance is because a popular and readily available army got strong rules. Would you argue that if GSC would get the exact same rules as Iron Hands tomorrow, that we would see that many GSC armies at the next tourney?

Custom40k Homebrew - Alternate activation, huge customisation, support for all models from 3rd to 10th edition

Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition) 
   
Made in ch
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a_typical_hero wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Also this notion that their sudden appearance and dominance is due to the ubiquity of collections is nonsense. Tournament goers will gravitate to what is most egregious.

I would accept it as a reason back in the summer but it is far more prevalent and systemic at this point.
This is only half the reason that was debated. The sudden appearance is because a popular and readily available army got strong rules. Would you argue that if GSC would get the exact same rules as Iron Hands tomorrow, that we would see that many GSC armies at the next tourney?


Considering how tournament players switch armies regularly , yeah.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in bg
Dakka Veteran




 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

All marines are successors of some legion. Marine armies are intended to use supplements. Not using a significant power boost available to you is of course a nice thing to do in a casual setting, but makes your playtesting utterly worthless for actually evaluating the power of the army.


So let me get this straight, I am required to use the Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, or Ravenguard supplement in order to play a generic chapter of SM?


The biggest prove SMs are a problem. Player bringing random units, not using most of his rules and fighting probably opponent with decent optimized list and units.
If i build random CWE army i wont be able to win a game and i`m sure most armies will have problems of doing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Darsath wrote:
I think you might have missed something. The play rates. You're comparing the late Knight meta, not the Ynarri meta from a year ago.


I just went and counted up the games for Ynnari players at LVO 2018.

120 games. 87 wins. 72%.


Why people continue to post wrong info that is easily check.
Even at LVO Ynnari had like 60% WR and should have in mind that numbers was going to be counted aeldar soup by the new rules.
For instance Harrison had like 800 pts Ynnari and the rest was CWE and DE flyers, but the main faction was counted as Ynnari.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Also this notion that their sudden appearance and dominance is due to the ubiquity of collections is nonsense. Tournament goers will gravitate to what is most egregious.

I would accept it as a reason back in the summer but it is far more prevalent and systemic at this point.
This is only half the reason that was debated. The sudden appearance is because a popular and readily available army got strong rules. Would you argue that if GSC would get the exact same rules as Iron Hands tomorrow, that we would see that many GSC armies at the next tourney?


Probably not, because GSC army is expensive, need a lot of painting and you cant ask everyone to just give you couple of models.
There is a reason frontline are implementing color rules without washes for LVO, because at SoCal most space marines armies are just bundled together models, got from multiple places.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/25 09:49:36


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Marin 782700 10640773 wrote:


Why people continue to post wrong info that is easily check.
Even at LVO Ynnari had like 60% WR and should have in mind that numbers was going to be counted aeldar soup by the new rules.
For instance Harrison had like 800 pts Ynnari and the rest was CWE and DE flyers, but the main faction was counted as Ynnari.


But isn't this just cuting a hair in to four? An ~1100pts IG army with a castellan was an IG army, and not castellan army? The corner stone of the list was over laping buffs and rule sets and being able to use CWE stratagems on Inari units, through taking a CWE detachment.


The biggest prove SMs are a problem. Player bringing random units, not using most of his rules and fighting probably opponent with decent optimized list and units.
If i build random CWE army i wont be able to win a game and i`m sure most armies will have problems of doing it.

well the same could have been said about eldar soups pre Inari and castellans. Didn't really matter if the army was just reapers, reapers with spears, reapers with flyers. I remember that one event was one by someone who had units of regular jetbikes, and those are suppose to be very bad.
And back then all eldar players were saying that others have to L2P, build proper list and that not everyone is bringing the good units. Well am sure that those marines players that started in 8th, and whose primaris armies were being beaten over by the eldar steam roller, are more then happy to give all eldar players the same advice, and that they also aren't running super optimised tournament list.


Every power armor faction WR is rising, GK are doing better than ever, compared to Nids who have something like 35% WR.

Awesome, good to hear that.



If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

a_typical_hero wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Also this notion that their sudden appearance and dominance is due to the ubiquity of collections is nonsense. Tournament goers will gravitate to what is most egregious.

I would accept it as a reason back in the summer but it is far more prevalent and systemic at this point.
This is only half the reason that was debated. The sudden appearance is because a popular and readily available army got strong rules. Would you argue that if GSC would get the exact same rules as Iron Hands tomorrow, that we would see that many GSC armies at the next tourney?
I would not. It is entirely reasonable to handwave some of the first post C:SM insanity events as closets of marine models trying out the new rules.

It's been months. They've dominated the entire time. Calls for letting the meta settle are pointless. Calling the variety of Marine subfactions doing well a sign of health is asanine.

The community would completely meltdown if we were in a 6 Eldar subfactions rule the game meta.

The same ubiquity that Marines enjoy also fuels their ascendancy in apologists.

The true sign this is unhealthy is the number of posts/real life occurances of Marine players stepping away from that force because facerolling their friends isn't fun.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





The community would completely meltdown if we were in a 6 Eldar subfactions rule the game meta.


If ANY faction and its sub faction rules the meta it's awful all around. Marines don't get a pass because they're the most popular. It's awful games design and what makes it worse is there's a 50/50 chance the marines will continue to dominate and people will defend them because they were bad in the past (I applaud you to go check the 5th ed chaos daemon codex and wonder how we used it competitively... We didn't...) and now they're strong it's fine.

On the other hand, I don't endorse over the top marine bashing. Let people enjoy their army is strong! The issue is now they're game warping levels of strong who can do whatever other armies can normally better than they can, from a army who is supposed to be generalist.
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Hanoi, Vietnam.

Speaking as someone who's played against Ravenguard and White Scars in a narrative campaign recently, I can tell you that neither game was much fun. For every die my Dark Angels rolled, it felt like my opponent was rolling four or more, and as fun as my game against the Tyrannids was - I still lost, but it was an enjoyable loss - I think I might drop out of the campaign, as getting tabled by turn two really just isn't a fun experience.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/25 11:11:20


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Karol wrote:
Marin 782700 10640773 wrote:


Why people continue to post wrong info that is easily check.
Even at LVO Ynnari had like 60% WR and should have in mind that numbers was going to be counted aeldar soup by the new rules.
For instance Harrison had like 800 pts Ynnari and the rest was CWE and DE flyers, but the main faction was counted as Ynnari.


But isn't this just cuting a hair in to four? An ~1100pts IG army with a castellan was an IG army, and not castellan army? The corner stone of the list was over laping buffs and rule sets and being able to use CWE stratagems on Inari units, through taking a CWE detachment.


The biggest prove SMs are a problem. Player bringing random units, not using most of his rules and fighting probably opponent with decent optimized list and units.
If i build random CWE army i wont be able to win a game and i`m sure most armies will have problems of doing it.

well the same could have been said about eldar soups pre Inari and castellans. Didn't really matter if the army was just reapers, reapers with spears, reapers with flyers. I remember that one event was one by someone who had units of regular jetbikes, and those are suppose to be very bad.
And back then all eldar players were saying that others have to L2P, build proper list and that not everyone is bringing the good units. Well am sure that those marines players that started in 8th, and whose primaris armies were being beaten over by the eldar steam roller, are more then happy to give all eldar players the same advice, and that they also aren't running super optimised tournament list.


Every power armor faction WR is rising, GK are doing better than ever, compared to Nids who have something like 35% WR.

Awesome, good to hear that.




Hey, if marine players are proposing they're willing to replace their supplement rules with a similar treatment to what Ynnari got, 100% fairs fair mate. You want a trait that's worse than almost all chapter tactics that you still have to do something to turn on?

Regardless, my main point of frustration is the sheer amount of cake marines are now allowed to have and eat too. EVERYTHING from the new vanilla codex they get to keep AND get all the incredibly amazing broken gak out of the supplements, even if they choose custom chapter traits.

Marines get a whole psychic power discipline, 6 relics, 6 Warlord traits, a super doctrine and a half dozen odd stratagems, even if they pick custom chapter traits.

Meanwhile, the custom traits I got for my eldar and drukhari five seconds later? I don't even get to keep the measley 1 relic, 1 WLT and 1 strat that comes with a standard chapter tactic.

Dorito's argument basically boils down to a 7th ed era "Well I don't use the broken decurion formation so the army isn't broken!" Which like...great? Obviously nobody is saying that it's the individual unit rules making marines busted, because they were among the worst armies in the game with basically the same unit rules. It's just the fact that they have access to 5 times the stratagems, warlord traits, relics, psychic powers and chapter traits that everybody else gets - of COURSE there's going to be something broken in there when you have your pick of like 54 psychic powers when other factions are working with fething SIX. Of course when someone has to come up with sixty stratagems for marines, somewhere in there you're going to have derpy gak like "my whole army is characters now " salamanders or "let me just deploy these centurions 9" from your deployment zone" raven guard.

And it sucks, because yeah, assault centurions kinda fething suck outside of raven guard. but I don't know how to rebalance that stratagem to make them not a problem other than just "Whoops, I guess there was a reason we went through the entire goddamn game before we lost our minds with nu-marines and tried to remove the turn 1 deep striking!" If I was going to bet on it, I'd say asscents are more likely to receive a point nerf than raven guard are to see a nerf to that stratagem. That's just realistic considering GW's history with this stuff, and it sucks ass. If the game's meta is ever balanced again, barring supplements going to narrative-only or something which I doubt, it's likely to be with stupid point nerfs that make a bunch of SM units only work in one chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ginjitzu wrote:
Speaking as someone who's played against Ravenguard and White Scars in a narrative campaign recently, I can tell you that neither game was much fun. For every die my Dark Angels rolled, it felt like my opponent was rolling four or more, and as fun as my game against the Tyrannids was - I still lost, but it was an enjoyable loss - I think I might drop out of the campaign, as getting tabled by turn two really just isn't a fun experience.


Yeah, watching like 1/3 of a white scars army just tear basically my entire GSC army a new donkey-cave this weekend has convinced me to drop out of going to an upcoming event. There's going to be like 20 people there and 14 are using marine supplements.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 12:47:20


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I guess I shouldn't have used marines specifically. No matter which faction it is someone will talk about how faction X has something they don't. This time it happens to be marines


Willing to bet we'll see something like it in the future for other factions, and there will be complaints about Marines still.

I very much doubt they'll get "Codex Supplement: Biel Tan/Tau Sept Boogaloo/Necron Dynasty Skelewankh like we have with chapters, maybe more stuff consolidated into a single book.

And that will STILL get complaints.

Imagine their complaint being that they don't have to spend more money on multiple books.


Bet we DONT see Supplements for non marine factions and RIGHTlY there will still be complaints. Just because a Faction (well sub Faction) gets lots of cool stuff should not mean you want to deprieve others of the enjoyment of having the same - but hey - I guess some people are like that - sad really.

I would def buy supplements for various Craftworlds/Regiments/Orders/Hive Fleets/Dynasty's/Cult /Kabals etc just like I bought Supplements for the Chapters that intersted me.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Why would GW want to do extended supplements to factions that are smaller then marines in number of units boughts? that would be like trying to pander to american football in europe.

Marines get updates, because for the same work and effort GW gets out more out of it. Lets say the last eldar updated was marine tier. The number of players playing eldar may rise, but it is nothing comparing to the number of marines players, that are going to stop buying models. non marine factions are like WFB to GW, good if it sells, but they ain't going in the red if it doesn't. If marines suddenly stoped being bought, they would be in big trouble.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Karol wrote:
Why would GW want to do extended supplements to factions that are smaller then marines in number of units boughts? that would be like trying to pander to american football in europe.

Marines get updates, because for the same work and effort GW gets out more out of it. Lets say the last eldar updated was marine tier. The number of players playing eldar may rise, but it is nothing comparing to the number of marines players, that are going to stop buying models. non marine factions are like WFB to GW, good if it sells, but they ain't going in the red if it doesn't. If marines suddenly stoped being bought, they would be in big trouble.


Yeah people said that crap about Sisters - oh look the TWO WEEK pre-sales were gone in less than 20 MINUTES -

So let me get this right - if any other (actual) faction gets a supplement people like you will table flip and stop buying GW products because they are not making enough Marines for you. Like I said some people just hate other people getting nice stuff. Really Really sad attitude.

If you only make stuff for one army then hey guess what sells.



I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka





Hey, if marine players are proposing they're willing to replace their supplement rules with a similar treatment to what Ynnari got, 100% fairs fair mate. You want a trait that's worse than almost all chapter tactics that you still have to do something to turn on?

Am not sure what marine players are proposing, besides telling all non marine player to stuff themself. But I doubt there are many people who are willing to have their armies get worse rules, just so others have fun. The better the codex and rules now, the longer it will last. Codex that are balanced become bad very fast. GK were like that, super balanced, every rule was put there with design thinking how to not make it too over powered. Fast Forward 2 years, the the book is laughable comparing to other. Eldar on the other hand, who were mind blowing strong through a lot of 8th ed, still have a flyer list. And still can soup stuff up.


Regardless, my main point of frustration is the sheer amount of cake marines are now allowed to have and eat too. EVERYTHING from the new vanilla codex they get to keep AND get all the incredibly amazing broken gak out of the supplements, even if they choose custom chapter traits.

Then play marines if you want to have good rules. I have been told that a lot of times.

Meanwhile, the custom traits I got for my eldar and drukhari five seconds later? I don't even get to keep the measley 1 relic, 1 WLT and 1 strat that comes with a standard chapter tactic.

being a mono GK player I am to a large degree immune to seeing the plight of eldar players of various sort. Am not sure how marine players feel about the same things. I think they do not care how good or bad eldar players have it. It is not like eldar players were killing themselfs to nerf their armies when those were good.


And it sucks, because yeah, assault centurions kinda fething suck outside of raven guard. but I don't know how to rebalance that stratagem to make them not a problem other than just "Whoops, I guess there was a reason we went through the entire goddamn game before we lost our minds with nu-marines and tried to remove the turn 1 deep striking!" If I was going to bet on it, I'd say asscents are more likely to receive a point nerf than raven guard are to see a nerf to that stratagem. That's just realistic considering GW's history with this stuff, and it sucks ass. If the game's meta is ever balanced again, barring supplements going to narrative-only or something which I doubt, it's likely to be with stupid point nerfs that make a bunch of SM units only work in one chapter.

am not sure how and why, marine players being told to soup up loyal 32 and a castellan was a learn to play issue and not enough terrain problem. But eldar players having it bad right now, being GW fundamentaly making errors that destroy the game.

Do eldar players somehow feel entitled to have good rules? Because I can tell you that, if marines who make up the majority of all players, didn't get good rules. And they are the money makers for GW, then anything that brings in less money is not going to be getting good rules either. I know that maybe the guy who wrote eldar rules for seven editions, no longer writes rules. Who knows.

I mean it is of course it is good to have good rules, it sure beats out having bad rules. And of course the game is better when more people have good rules then those that have bad rules. And GW just did that. Marines make a huge part of the player base. Maybe making marines good at everything and vs every army just did give the majority of players a good army. With smaller investment too. sure someone can load up on executioners and flyers etc. But a marine army with basic troops, eliminators and hellblasters is working more then fine. And no longer gets bullied by something like flyer spam.

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Wow thats a mighty big anti-Eldar chip on the shoulder....

There people here who play other stuff other than Eldar and do play marines that disagree with you.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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 Mr Morden wrote:
So let me get this right - if any other (actual) faction gets a supplement people like you will table flip and stop buying GW products because they are not making enough Marines for you. Like I said some people just hate other people getting nice stuff. Really Really sad attitude.

If you only make stuff for one army then hey guess what sells.
That is not his argument and I'm not reading that mindset of his out of the statement. Karol says that Marines get supplements because there are enough fans for it to be financially viable. Of course, if you don't give a faction any love then it is difficult to have a large enough fanbase to make supplements viable in the first place.


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Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition) 
   
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 Mr Morden wrote:
Karol wrote:
Why would GW want to do extended supplements to factions that are smaller then marines in number of units boughts? that would be like trying to pander to american football in europe.

Marines get updates, because for the same work and effort GW gets out more out of it. Lets say the last eldar updated was marine tier. The number of players playing eldar may rise, but it is nothing comparing to the number of marines players, that are going to stop buying models. non marine factions are like WFB to GW, good if it sells, but they ain't going in the red if it doesn't. If marines suddenly stoped being bought, they would be in big trouble.


Yeah people said that crap about Sisters - oh look the TWO WEEK pre-sales were gone in less than 20 MINUTES -

So let me get this right - if any other (actual) faction gets a supplement people like you will table flip and stop buying GW products because they are not making enough Marines for you. Like I said some people just hate other people getting nice stuff. Really Really sad attitude.

If you only make stuff for one army then hey guess what sells.




Everyone and their dog expected sisters to sell out quickly, tbh I'm likely to flip my shiz if all my stuff got supplements because I don't want to buy or carry all the extra books when they should be optional and not a power boost stop assuming that anyone who disagrees you is a marine player (hint, they're not always), or that people expect you exist a squalid incomplete existence because there's a white scars book but there isn't an expansion on the extensive fluff and rules for bor'Kan tau.
   
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 Mr Morden wrote:
Wow thats a mighty big anti-Eldar chip on the shoulder....

There people here who play other stuff other than Eldar and do play marines that disagree with you.


Yeah I play Eldar, Orks, Thousand Sons, Genestealer Cult and marines. My marines are 20 deathwatch guys I built for Kill Team, 10 jump pack marines I got for Kill Team Elites and a set of Terminators from Space Hulk I had in my basement. Despite having constructed all my other armies with an eye to them being reasonably competitive in most metas, and my deathwatch pretty much solely for Kill Team with at least one copy of every legal KT loadout, since the addition of Shock Assault my Deathwatch have been the nastiest army I have.

Deathwatch haven't even gotten supplement-tier broken yet (tbh I don't know if they ever will) and already I feel like it's the only army I can bring to the table against marines and hope to have anything resembling a good game. At least with Deathwatch I have those sweet busted 2 point 3++ saves so when my opponent goes "OK turn 2 this book right here says if I haven't tabled all your infantry yet I can just decide to have an extra AP on all my basic weapons - lets see how many hours of painting I can make you scoop up in a single shooting phase!"

Sure, my guys only have one wound, and sure, to deal the same damage an intercessor deals at 30" range squatting in his deployment zone I have to be 18" away, but I'll take a fist fight with one hand tied behind my back over both hands, both legs, blindfold and my opponent gets a gun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 15:18:32


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

Dudeface wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Karol wrote:
Why would GW want to do extended supplements to factions that are smaller then marines in number of units boughts? that would be like trying to pander to american football in europe.

Marines get updates, because for the same work and effort GW gets out more out of it. Lets say the last eldar updated was marine tier. The number of players playing eldar may rise, but it is nothing comparing to the number of marines players, that are going to stop buying models. non marine factions are like WFB to GW, good if it sells, but they ain't going in the red if it doesn't. If marines suddenly stoped being bought, they would be in big trouble.


Yeah people said that crap about Sisters - oh look the TWO WEEK pre-sales were gone in less than 20 MINUTES -

So let me get this right - if any other (actual) faction gets a supplement people like you will table flip and stop buying GW products because they are not making enough Marines for you. Like I said some people just hate other people getting nice stuff. Really Really sad attitude.

If you only make stuff for one army then hey guess what sells.




Everyone and their dog expected sisters to sell out quickly, tbh I'm likely to flip my shiz if all my stuff got supplements because I don't want to buy or carry all the extra books when they should be optional and not a power boost stop assuming that anyone who disagrees you is a marine player (hint, they're not always), or that people expect you exist a squalid incomplete existence because there's a white scars book but there isn't an expansion on the extensive fluff and rules for bor'Kan tau.


I really hope they just roll the supplement material into codecs for the other factions, I wish they would have done this for marines as well, having to use 3 books now to run a basic mono faction army is annoying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 15:15:27


Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!  
   
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This thread is a study in cognitive bias. lol

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