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At least when it was CWE pulling off the absurd special rules shenanigans, it was a faction known for shenanigans. Still ugly, bad for the game, and unfun. But they were those dirty knife-ears pulling dirty tricks. But now it's Marines pulling the shenanigans.

Because nothing says "Extremely Tricksy" like Marines. Nothing says "Extremely fast" like Marines. Nothing says "Extreme Firepower" like Marines. Nothing says "Extremely specialized" like Marines. Nothing says "Extremely Durable" like Marines. Because Marines.

Bharring wrote:
But they were those dirty knife-ears pulling dirty tricks.

I prefer classic Heinlein terminology, 'skinnies'.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

The Heavy Weapon level AP (doctrines) and additional trait/super doctrine buff have been in place since the new year. Huh. Odd.

Except that isn't what some people have been referencing. Feel free to read up.

I don't know what you're referring to. The closest thing I could find was a post detailing how all the excessive buffs given to marines make PEQ dominant at owning the mid table and stating that even if reverted would still hold a slight edge.

Your statement that they exist now as they did 11 months ago remains absurd.

That wasn't my statement. It was that people are representing Intercessors as somehow being wildly better, but their points are all things that existed in January. Here you go:

Dark Angel having units of 5 intercessors in cover everywhere natively rerolling 1's popping out 2 shoots a piece at 30" feels really, really great.

Saying they are merely ok in shooting is false, shooting two AP-2 shots at 30" is great for 17 pts.

The 30" guns weren't a problem when they were 7 pts more than a Tactical Squad, now they are only 5 pts more and they are busted

30" guns on standard infantry break the meta for mid-range shooting

Primaris have been two 30" shots at 17 points since January. Adding reroll 1s or exploding hits didn't suddenly make them murder machines especially given that devastator doctrine isn't benefiting Intercessors other than Stalkers and the chapters that like Stalkers aren't switching to Tactical.

My problem / concern is that people are suddenly paying attention to marines, but wind up muddying the discussion about where the problems lie.

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Karol wrote:
Why would GW want to do extended supplements to factions that are smaller then marines in number of units boughts? that would be like trying to pander to american football in europe.

Marines get updates, because for the same work and effort GW gets out more out of it. Lets say the last eldar updated was marine tier. The number of players playing eldar may rise, but it is nothing comparing to the number of marines players, that are going to stop buying models. non marine factions are like WFB to GW, good if it sells, but they ain't going in the red if it doesn't. If marines suddenly stoped being bought, they would be in big trouble.

Yeah people said that crap about Sisters - oh look the TWO WEEK pre-sales were gone in less than 20 MINUTES -

So let me get this right - if any other (actual) faction gets a supplement people like you will table flip and stop buying GW products because they are not making enough Marines for you. Like I said some people just hate other people getting nice stuff. Really Really sad attitude.

If you only make stuff for one army then hey guess what sells.

Everyone and their dog expected sisters to sell out quickly, tbh I'm likely to flip my shiz if all my stuff got supplements because I don't want to buy or carry all the extra books when they should be optional and not a power boost stop assuming that anyone who disagrees you is a marine player (hint, they're not always), or that people expect you exist a squalid incomplete existence because there's a white scars book but there isn't an expansion on the extensive fluff and rules for bor'Kan tau.

Same way some people say all those who dare to raise objections to Marines are Xenos(well Eldar) players?

I collect and play all factions - except Halflings - hate the little $&($(^^.

His intent was extremely clear to me - it was Just make stuff for Marines and F everyone else,.

Well we also know now that GW values the -1 AP at 1 point on tacs.

Bharring wrote:
At least when it was CWE pulling off the absurd special rules shenanigans, it was a faction known for shenanigans. Still ugly, bad for the game, and unfun. But they were those dirty knife-ears pulling dirty tricks. But now it's Marines pulling the shenanigans.

Because nothing says "Extremely Tricksy" like Marines. Nothing says "Extremely fast" like Marines. Nothing says "Extreme Firepower" like Marines. Nothing says "Extremely specialized" like Marines. Nothing says "Extremely Durable" like Marines. Because Marines.

Out-orking the Ork, out-'darring the 'Dar, out-tauing the Tau, out-DGing the Deathguard... nu-weenies, badassedestest since 2019!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

The Heavy Weapon level AP (doctrines) and additional trait/super doctrine buff have been in place since the new year. Huh. Odd.

Except that isn't what some people have been referencing. Feel free to read up.

I don't know what you're referring to. The closest thing I could find was a post detailing how all the excessive buffs given to marines make PEQ dominant at owning the mid table and stating that even if reverted would still hold a slight edge.

Your statement that they exist now as they did 11 months ago remains absurd.

That wasn't my statement. It was that people are representing Intercessors as somehow being wildly better, but their points are all things that existed in January. Here you go:

Dark Angel having units of 5 intercessors in cover everywhere natively rerolling 1's popping out 2 shoots a piece at 30" feels really, really great.

Saying they are merely ok in shooting is false, shooting two AP-2 shots at 30" is great for 17 pts.

The 30" guns weren't a problem when they were 7 pts more than a Tactical Squad, now they are only 5 pts more and they are busted

30" guns on standard infantry break the meta for mid-range shooting

Primaris have been two 30" shots at 17 points since January. Adding reroll 1s or exploding hits didn't suddenly make them murder machines especially given that devastator doctrine isn't benefiting Intercessors other than Stalkers and the chapters that like Stalkers aren't switching to Tactical.

My problem / concern is that people are suddenly paying attention to marines, but wind up muddying the discussion about where the problems lie.

"Ok can I have exploding hits on my basic infantry too please ? Or auto wound if hit scored? Or AP-2 guns if I choose to ? Or make them all snipers with re-roll everything? Or a myriad of other combinations of traits, startegems and relics to fill a nieche in my list so that there is no downside to playing my faction?" Sincerly, All NPC players around the world. Thanks.

They are absolutely part of the problem package. The basic troop got way better for gods sake and has far more utility and options than it ever did, it's just a tip of the rules iceberg. Iflitrating T1 Ds for units that have no business being able to do those things compared to other factions scout units. Yeah those centurions and dreadnaughts are really good at sneaking up to the battle lines of super advanced alien races. Nope cant detect them at all. Its stupid.

For the record, I've been saying intercessors were bloody good troops choice before this gak storm of a rules dump. And now its been dialed up to 11.

Like lets try and be real here... The genie is out the bottle. You'd have to do a huge FAQ nerfhammer to counter all the countless strategems and rules combos to claw it back.
Which means the next wave of codexes is going to be more obscene and nobody is loking forward to that.

Intercessors are just really good now. To say they're broken is pretty asinine.

Intercessors are the best troops choice for the best faction in the game, increasing their cost is completely reasonable. I wouldn't call them broken, more than 2 pts increase would be too much and I think 1 pt on the best combinations would be most reasonable. Stalker BR WS Intercessors continue not being a problem just like previously.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well we also know now that GW values the -1 AP at 1 point on tacs.

Did you mean to say -1 pt on Tacticals for getting Tactical Doctrine?

Intercessors are perfectly balanced now. Before they were worth about 15 points and were paying 17. Instead of dropping them points they gave them +1 AP and +1 attack - which makes them worth 17.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:
Intercessors are the best troops choice for the best faction in the game, increasing their cost is completely reasonable. I wouldn't call them broken, more than 2 pts increase would be too much and I think 1 pt on the best combinations would be most reasonable. Stalker BR WS Intercessors continue not being a problem just like previously.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well we also know now that GW values the -1 AP at 1 point on tacs.

Did you mean to say -1 pt on Tacticals for getting Tactical Doctrine?

The stalker bolt gun could do with a 2 point increases.

 vict0988 wrote:
Intercessors are the best troops choice for the best faction in the game, increasing their cost is completely reasonable. I wouldn't call them broken, more than 2 pts increase would be too much and I think 1 pt on the best combinations would be most reasonable. Stalker BR WS Intercessors continue not being a problem just like previously.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well we also know now that GW values the -1 AP at 1 point on tacs.

Did you mean to say -1 pt on Tacticals for getting Tactical Doctrine?

access to doctrines = 1 pts, comparatively to CSM, if it stays that, maybee they are daft enough to also lower tacs again.

 Argive wrote:
Yeah those centurions and dreadnaughts are really good at sneaking up to the battle lines of super advanced alien races. Nope cant detect them at all. Its stupid.

as an admech player, this really pisses me off. Our clandestine infiltration stratagem got completely changed because it was too OP for alpha strikes, same with alpha legion and raven guard. Now marines get it back. Tell me how fulgurites or dragoons charging in turn 1 is worse than assault centurions or invictors? At least we had to pay CP to do it, now its just a warlord trait or built-in the unit.

Non-marines: Nu-marines are ridiculous!'

Blood Angels: 'Hold my beer.'

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

Which means the next wave of codexes is going to be more obscene and nobody is loking forward to that.

The next non Marine codex is already available to look at - compare and contrast.

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-sisters-of-battle-the-goonhammer-review/

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Non-marines: Nu-marines are ridiculous!'

Blood Angels: 'Hold my beer.'

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

So still inferior to Vanilla Marines. Got it.

Seriously what are they doing? It doesn't look as excessive as the worst of the SM supplements but it is continuing the bizarre

Marines Tier of rules support (both thematically and power)

Everyone else.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Non-marines: Nu-marines are ridiculous!'

Blood Angels: 'Hold my beer.'

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

It's T3+ which is inherently less obnoxious than T1 and +1 A attack on the charge is generically awesome, +1 D on tonnes of D1/D2 weapons against vehicles is super insane if you are playing a vehicle-centric list. Losing out on cheap AM Battalions is pretty huge, their characters are basically staying power neutral, but their Smash Captains are becoming 24 pts more expensive most likely. If BA don't get any new insane relics I think they'll be about on-par with WS, but using a trio of BA Captains in soup will be weaker. It'll be exciting to see a lot of their unique Predators on the table... Oh wait, GW is only interested in the meme of armies, not the fluff. BA are Khorne Berzerkers now!

 vict0988 wrote:
It's T3+ which is inherently less obnoxious than T1 and +1 A attack on the charge is generically awesome, +1 D on tonnes of D1/D2 weapons against vehicles is super insane if you are playing a vehicle-centric list. Losing out on cheap AM Battalions is pretty huge, their characters are basically staying power neutral, but their Smash Captains are becoming 24 pts more expensive most likely. If BA don't get any new insane relics I think they'll be about on-par with WS, but using a trio of BA Captains in soup will be weaker. It'll be exciting to see a lot of their unique Predators on the table... Oh wait, GW is only interested in the meme of armies, not the fluff. BA are Khorne Berzerkers now!

It's currently turn 3, Black Templars can put a squad into Assault on any turn, I'd be pretty surprised if BA weren't able to do the same or better. Given that you only really care about getting DC into Assault doctrine for the most part, I'd say that'll do.

Uh...I've already spotted a ignore up to ap-2 combo...The whole army shoots when it dies on a 5+ for free...Yeah...They are gonna be fine. Top tier even. Miracle dice is amazing.

Marines shredded again this week. 60% of the Top 4s

What a diverse meta.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/e1gxdy/pandas_weekend_rundown_11231124/?sort=new

What exactly are people seeing in the BA PA that is so upsetting?

Litanies will boost the power of BA for sure. Just getting those will bring BA up in power significantly but no where near where nu-marines are as far as I can tell.

+1 attack on the charge isn't powerful if you have to wait until t3 to do it and without a way to get units into melee who cares. Without a bunch of new strats (deepstrike, advance and charge, something like trans-human, something to protect the dreads), an ability to skip to assault doctrine and reduction on costs of existing strats (pre-game move, 3d6 charge are done cheaper by vanilla) BA are still SM -1 (which probably is a good thing given how broken SM are).

BA suffer from trying to turn a shooting army into a melee army. Without dedicated primaris CQC units (which will be broken as all get out) I think BA will get a mild boost but without something a lot more broken than what has been previewed I don't see what the worries are.

tulun wrote:
Marines shredded again this week. 60% of the Top 4s

What a diverse meta.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/e1gxdy/pandas_weekend_rundown_11231124/?sort=new

I'd honestly like to see a mirror removal on the whole tournaments.
But at this stage this is ridicoulus.

bananathug wrote:
What exactly are people seeing in the BA PA that is so upsetting?

Litanies will boost the power of BA for sure. Just getting those will bring BA up in power significantly but no where near where nu-marines are as far as I can tell.

+1 attack on the charge isn't powerful if you have to wait until t3 to do it and without a way to get units into melee who cares. Without a bunch of new strats (deepstrike, advance and charge, something like trans-human, something to protect the dreads), an ability to skip to assault doctrine and reduction on costs of existing strats (pre-game move, 3d6 charge are done cheaper by vanilla) BA are still SM -1 (which probably is a good thing given how broken SM are).

BA suffer from trying to turn a shooting army into a melee army. Without dedicated primaris CQC units (which will be broken as all get out) I think BA will get a mild boost but without something a lot more broken than what has been previewed I don't see what the worries are.

This book is looking just like a supplement. So how do we know they won't get access to the c:sm strategems? We already know they're getting vanguard marines.

bananathug wrote:
What exactly are people seeing in the BA PA that is so upsetting?

Litanies will boost the power of BA for sure. Just getting those will bring BA up in power significantly but no where near where nu-marines are as far as I can tell.

Well, they're a better Assault army than World Eaters and Black Templars, but they get to keep their psykers. A 5 man squad of Death Company fully buffed can get upwards of I think 40 attacks on the charge? Who needs to attack twice at that point?

bananathug wrote:
+1 attack on the charge isn't powerful if you have to wait until t3 to do it and without a way to get units into melee who cares.

It is unlikely (to the point of absurdity) that they will have to wait until turn 3 to put a squad into Assault Doctrine. Black Templars can do it for one squad any time they want, I seriously doubt BA won't be able to do the same or better.

bananathug wrote:
Without a bunch of new strats (deepstrike, advance and charge, something like trans-human, something to protect the dreads), an ability to skip to assault doctrine and reduction on costs of existing strats (pre-game move, 3d6 charge are done cheaper by vanilla) BA are still SM -1 (which probably is a good thing given how broken SM are).

I guess it's a good thing they mention that there are new warlord traits and strats and such in the new supplement, might have had something less than amazing for an SM chapter. Whew!

just make it stop... somebody.. anybody.. That's enough.. we get... we will buy some marines... just stop already..

 Argive wrote:
just make it stop... somebody.. anybody.. That's enough.. we get... we will buy some marines... just stop already..

The feth we will.

I certainly will change my plans in regards to expenditure.

bananathug wrote:
What exactly are people seeing in the BA PA that is so upsetting?

Litanies will boost the power of BA for sure. Just getting those will bring BA up in power significantly but no where near where nu-marines are as far as I can tell.

+1 attack on the charge isn't powerful if you have to wait until t3 to do it and without a way to get units into melee who cares. Without a bunch of new strats (deepstrike, advance and charge, something like trans-human, something to protect the dreads), an ability to skip to assault doctrine and reduction on costs of existing strats (pre-game move, 3d6 charge are done cheaper by vanilla) BA are still SM -1 (which probably is a good thing given how broken SM are).

BA suffer from trying to turn a shooting army into a melee army. Without dedicated primaris CQC units (which will be broken as all get out) I think BA will get a mild boost but without something a lot more broken than what has been previewed I don't see what the worries are.

It comes down to the cost and flexibility of DC. A 6+++ is handy on Primaris. If they can go to 15 models and they're cheap and they have the same wargear flexibility...gonna be a bit scary.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
just make it stop... somebody.. anybody.. That's enough.. we get... we will buy some marines... just stop already..

The feth we will.

"C'mon man.. just stop it...I will comply... *he says through his battered and bruised face spitting blood* .. Ok I get it.. that's enough enough... stop now.. you win.. I learned my lesson"

I imagine a a scene where an angry marine (The avatar of GW) kicking the bejeezus out of a lowly grunt scrub guardsman(the avatar of non marine compliant fan base) telling him "to back in line! Your views don't matter NPC character #24!!!! Grrrrr!!! marines rulez mofo!!! now stfu!!"

 Argive wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
just make it stop... somebody.. anybody.. That's enough.. we get... we will buy some marines... just stop already..

The feth we will.

"C'mon man.. just stop it...I will comply... *he says through his battered and bruised face spitting blood* .. I gte it.. its enough... stop now.. you win"

I imagine an avatar of angry marine (Representing GW) kicking the bejeezus out of a grunt guardsman "to get back in line. Your views don't matter NPC character #24!!!! Grrrrr" representing the large porion of non marine compliant hobbyistst.

I don't get it, I would gladly buy 3 boxes of the new CSM if they made them not terrible but GW refuses to do it