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Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a tau player but with the points drop to the stormsurge do tau now have access to a 20 wound low with a 4+ invul for 350 points?

Also smoke launchers on baneblades, fellblades, et cetera are pointless.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a tau player but with the points drop to the stormsurge do tau now have access to a 20 wound low with a 4+ invul for 350 points?

Also smoke launchers on baneblades, fellblades, et cetera are pointless.

I'm not a guard player, but wasn't there an order which allows you to smoke and fire in the same turn?

Spoletta wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a tau player but with the points drop to the stormsurge do tau now have access to a 20 wound low with a 4+ invul for 350 points?

Also smoke launchers on baneblades, fellblades, et cetera are pointless.

I'm not a guard player, but wasn't there an order which allows you to smoke and fire in the same turn?

You can't order a baneblade.

Spoletta wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a tau player but with the points drop to the stormsurge do tau now have access to a 20 wound low with a 4+ invul for 350 points?

Also smoke launchers on baneblades, fellblades, et cetera are pointless.

I'm not a guard player, but wasn't there an order which allows you to smoke and fire in the same turn?

Yes but it only works on leman russes. No baneblades.

Feth I type too slow.

It's all good, it's just odd so many people saying all these awesome things to buff a BB yet have no clue how the BB interacts with the codex it resides in.

Gary_1986 wrote:
As a Grey Knight player I am so damned glad their point cost has came down if I'm honest. 46 points for each Terminator was harsh as hell, but at their new point cost plus their natural psychic gifts makes them pretty decent if I'm honest.

I think the one rule that made Grey Knights come into their own though, in addition to Chapter Approved point reductions is Bolter Discipline. The amount of bolt shots Grey Knights can put out is obscene, the one thing that bugs me though is that it doesn't benefit them in Close Combat like True Grit used to where Storm Bolters were treated as pistols for Grey Knights.

That would add a bit more to them, enough to make them a viable choice, they're already beastly in Close Combat. I would also if I'm honest like to see Grey Knights get a bump to Leadership, and some kind of buff for charging into combat. With all their intense psychic abilities I'm thinking something like 'Blinding Charge', with -1 to enemy roll to hit in Close Combat, or something like cannot be Overwatched. It would definitely give them a niche feel, Close Combat beasts.

The trouble is everyone else got decent cuts also... So with points inflation, the weakest armies sadly will still struggle. But its cerntainly a point in the right direction. GK suffer from core book issues with having very poor overpriced strats compared to other armies.
I think strike marines/interceptors are hot though and look like the real winners. Termies in general just do not feel offensively capably when with bolter discipline IMO.

I hope you get a lot more out of your army now though and get more even games though.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
It's all good, it's just odd so many people saying all these awesome things to buff a BB yet have no clue how the BB interacts with the codex it resides in.

Well Spoletta did admit to not playing guard.

Just like I admitted to not playing tau. So is the stormsurge as good as I'm thinking or is my chaos addled mind just confused?

 Argive wrote:

Gary_1986 wrote:
As a Grey Knight player I am so damned glad their point cost has came down if I'm honest. 46 points for each Terminator was harsh as hell, but at their new point cost plus their natural psychic gifts makes them pretty decent if I'm honest.

I think the one rule that made Grey Knights come into their own though, in addition to Chapter Approved point reductions is Bolter Discipline. The amount of bolt shots Grey Knights can put out is obscene, the one thing that bugs me though is that it doesn't benefit them in Close Combat like True Grit used to where Storm Bolters were treated as pistols for Grey Knights.

That would add a bit more to them, enough to make them a viable choice, they're already beastly in Close Combat. I would also if I'm honest like to see Grey Knights get a bump to Leadership, and some kind of buff for charging into combat. With all their intense psychic abilities I'm thinking something like 'Blinding Charge', with -1 to enemy roll to hit in Close Combat, or something like cannot be Overwatched. It would definitely give them a niche feel, Close Combat beasts.

The trouble is everyone else got decent cuts also... So with points inflation, the weakest armies sadly will still struggle. But its cerntainly a point in the right direction. GK suffer from core book issues with having very poor overpriced strats compared to other armies.
I think strike marines/interceptors are hot though and look like the real winners. Termies in general just do not feel offensively capably when with bolter discipline IMO.

I hope you get a lot more out of your army now though and get more even games though.

Paladins will be...okay though, especially after their further price cut. W3 at their price point makes them still worse than Custodes but at least they'll be able to duke it out with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, the point cut AND the further cut on their Psilencers.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
It's all good, it's just odd so many people saying all these awesome things to buff a BB yet have no clue how the BB interacts with the codex it resides in.

Well Spoletta did admit to not playing guard.

Just like I admitted to not playing tau. So is the stormsurge as good as I'm thinking or is my chaos addled mind just confused?

Which is fine and I'm not wishing to be mean, but saying you don't know , then offering advice on the topic you don't know, rarely leads to being helpful. Hence why I don't often speak on the useful strats for say Necrons, or how varied a Tyranid list can be.

Or as well why I can't help you with the stormsurge question, as I play the Tau but don't have or use that unit so I have no clue. Riptide is as large as I go currently.

I was just asking a question, not offering advice. XD

Gadzilla666 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
It's all good, it's just odd so many people saying all these awesome things to buff a BB yet have no clue how the BB interacts with the codex it resides in.

Well Spoletta did admit to not playing guard.

Just like I admitted to not playing tau. So is the stormsurge as good as I'm thinking or is my chaos addled mind just confused?

They were already a top teir option at 400ish points. Now at 340ish with full build. They are auto include.

Compare it to a Repulsor executrioner which also costs 330.

Executioner
4 str 10 ap-5 D6 min 3
18 str 5 ap-2
2d6 + 4 str ap -0
9x str 4 ap-2
t8 16 wounds 3+ save no invo

Stromsurge
4x d3 mortal wounds missiles 1 time use.
d6 str 10 ap-4 d6
4d6 str 5 ap-1
16 str 5 ap-1
T7 20 wounnd 3+ save/4++

They have comparable firepower but The storm surge has an obvious advantage of being able to drop 4d3 mortal wounds which gets silly if you take 3 storm surge. The surge is also about twice as durable against most weapons and it has a huge amount of upgrades. If you take 3 of them with 5 marker lights on a target. It's pretty much auto dead for the mortal wounds. 3+ reroll 1's then take about 6-7 d3 mortal wounds. Your best unit can take 7d3 mortal wounds and I still have 3 executioners worth of firepower with 4++ saves. GG.

The stormsurge does have the distinct disadvantage of having a knight size base and a 6" move. Unlike the riptide builds, that thing will stay put if you manage to get a few models in melee with it.

You know, the thing that the fly keyword protects you from

wighti wrote:
The stormsurge does have the distinct disadvantage of having a knight size base and a 6" move. Unlike the riptide builds, that thing will stay put if you manage to get a few models in melee with it.

You know, the thing that the fly keyword protects you from

Surge can fall back and shoot. You could potentially trap it which would totally suck but being charged is typically not something tau fear in general. Unless you can ignore overwatch you basically can't charge this army. Movement is something it loses out on a riptide to but tau don't really move much. For 10 points it can even take reroll all hits in overwatch. It's also got much greater range than a riptide. Not that riptides are bad. I tihnk we will be seeing these units working in tandem now and winning more than ever.

 Xenomancers wrote:

wighti wrote:
The stormsurge does have the distinct disadvantage of having a knight size base and a 6" move. Unlike the riptide builds, that thing will stay put if you manage to get a few models in melee with it.

You know, the thing that the fly keyword protects you from

Surge can fall back and shoot. You could potentially trap it which would totally suck but being charged is typically not something tau fear in general. Unless you can ignore overwatch you basically can't charge this army. Movement is something it loses out on a riptide to but tau don't really move much. For 10 points it can even take reroll all hits in overwatch. It's also got much greater range than a riptide. Not that riptides are bad. I tihnk we will be seeing these units working in tandem now and winning more than ever.

Yup thought so. And still cheaper than a baneblade. And you can almost get three for one fellblade.

Good job gw. Excellent balance.

Wait. This isn't like when you said squigoths were good is it?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

wighti wrote:
The stormsurge does have the distinct disadvantage of having a knight size base and a 6" move. Unlike the riptide builds, that thing will stay put if you manage to get a few models in melee with it.

You know, the thing that the fly keyword protects you from

Surge can fall back and shoot. You could potentially trap it which would totally suck but being charged is typically not something tau fear in general. Unless you can ignore overwatch you basically can't charge this army. Movement is something it loses out on a riptide to but tau don't really move much. For 10 points it can even take reroll all hits in overwatch. It's also got much greater range than a riptide. Not that riptides are bad. I tihnk we will be seeing these units working in tandem now and winning more than ever.

Yup thought so. And still cheaper than a baneblade. And you can almost get three for one fellblade.

Good job gw. Excellent balance.

Wait. This isn't like when you said squigoths were good is it?

I said that a squigoth came in 2nd place with index orks vs armies that had real codex. At warzone atlanta which is one of the largest tournaments in the country every year. I think 250 players. Also - it's really not a bad unit. Lots of wounds. 2+ to deal d6 mortal wounds on charge. 2 very powerful guns and holds 20 orks. You just have to build around it. I never said it was OP.

Storm-surge is obviously OP at this price. It was already pretty aggressively costed around 400.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the ork point drops I've seen are equally if not more egregious. For some reason the best war-buggy (the squigbuggy) which was 140 points is now...100 points.

At this price it is probably fighting for best unit in the entire game.
The other buggys also saw significant drops. These were already some of the best units in the codex too for shooting units. A very uninformed choice from GW...

GK got some decent points drops and I am happy about that. They still need supporting rules to make them playable.


Meanwhile space marines tanks which are still pretty poor are made to suffer with no drops because ironhands superdoctrine exists and a few busted whitescars and ravengaurd traits.

Choas drops all seem pretty fair...except for oblitz maybe...that was pretty aggressive. IMO they could have gone more aggressive on units like warptalons. Really gotta explain to me why an auto include unit like a soceror in terminator armor went down though...

Eldar is a mess. Some good drops...Hemlock drops in price??? Meanwhile the CHE raised while not raising the regular crimson hunter while simultaneously dropping bright lances?? BL drop is pretty welcome but then why the heck am I paying 25 for a lascannon still? Infantry are still overcosted as crap...guardians 8 points? DE 11? Give me a break these units need to come down to 6 and 9 respectively. Have not reviewed thoroughly enough.

DE - no comment..seems reasonable but maybe unnecessary with other armies getting drops. Arcon got cheaper that is nice.

Quins - agressive drops...not sure it changes much though. As a solo army they need rules changes to really be effective. They will be as always a matchup nightmare. They win their good match-ups even harder now and still lose to gunlines.

Gaurd went really touched much. Baneblade drop is nice. Scions drop is nice. LR drop is also nice. Woulda liked to see chimera come down in price too. Probably wont change much - gaurd will still just be a soup addition to bring CP and command tanks. Maybe now a baneblade too.

Nids - insufficient points help for on of the few armies that REALLY needed adjustments. Some call outs. Hormagants 5 points? LOL. Termgants 4 points? Sure some other units got love taps but a unit like a tyranofex/haruspex needs more than a love tap. There is 0 reason why a haruspex should cost significantly more than a mutalith vortex beast - yet it does. Tervigone? If it's remaining at 3 attacks better go down to like 140 points. Same goes for maleceptor - needs big drops.

Crons - remains to be determined. These are pretty aggressive drops to. I reserve judgement here though because I personally don't think crons are a bad army to begin with.

Remember when Ultramarines were going to be trash?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember when Ultramarines were going to be trash?

They are legit the worst marine chapter. You might be right with me there with black templars. They are significantly weaker. Likely the difference between GK and the middle tier is the same difference between Ultras and Iron-hands in terms of power. That is what I was squawking about. It is evident by tournament results too.

Yes but the gulf in power between marines tends to still be nothing the gulf between marines and many other armies exists.

Though it's cool guard get to be CP batteries for other soup lists. I really hate allies and current CP generation, I wish they would both jog off so people would stop sticking the guard for drinks.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember when Ultramarines were going to be trash?

They are legit the worst marine chapter. You might be right with me there with black templars. They are significantly weaker. Likely the difference between GK and the middle tier is the same difference between Ultras and Iron-hands in terms of power. That is what I was squawking about. It is evident by tournament results too.

Ah so the other marine players just plain suck then seeing ultramarines are among top all the time behind IH.

Sure they aren't IH level but no other is IH level.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but the gulf in power between marines tends to still be nothing the gulf between marines and many other armies exists.

Though it's cool guard get to be CP batteries for other soup lists. I really hate allies and current CP generation, I wish they would both jog off so people would stop sticking the guard for drinks.

Or CP generation could be detachment locked. Admin nightmare, sure, but it solves many (not all!) CP battery farm issues.

sieGermans wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but the gulf in power between marines tends to still be nothing the gulf between marines and many other armies exists.

Though it's cool guard get to be CP batteries for other soup lists. I really hate allies and current CP generation, I wish they would both jog off so people would stop sticking the guard for drinks.

Or CP generation could be detachment locked. Admin nightmare, sure, but it solves many (not all!) CP battery farm issues.

Except GW doesn't WANT to do that. Because money.
Best exemple, RC corsair battery.

(also if you'd take that away you'd arely see any real CSM on the field, which is just sad imo, but then again the ways of GW are unknown.)

sieGermans wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but the gulf in power between marines tends to still be nothing the gulf between marines and many other armies exists.

Though it's cool guard get to be CP batteries for other soup lists. I really hate allies and current CP generation, I wish they would both jog off so people would stop sticking the guard for drinks.

Or CP generation could be detachment locked. Admin nightmare, sure, but it solves many (not all!) CP battery farm issues.

Or make detachments COST CP rather than give. Start with base value, each detachment(depending on how taxing it is) reduces your CP. Also gives incentive to play mono and not just codex but sub faction. You either get more CP or you get soup. Not both.

tneva82 wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but the gulf in power between marines tends to still be nothing the gulf between marines and many other armies exists.

Though it's cool guard get to be CP batteries for other soup lists. I really hate allies and current CP generation, I wish they would both jog off so people would stop sticking the guard for drinks.

Or CP generation could be detachment locked. Admin nightmare, sure, but it solves many (not all!) CP battery farm issues.

Or make detachments COST CP rather than give. Start with base value, each detachment(depending on how taxing it is) reduces your CP. Also gives incentive to play mono and not just codex but sub faction. You either get more CP or you get soup. Not both.

Assuming this, then you would have a general limit of CP that get's counted down then?
So that you are forced to decide to either pay balanced force tax or CP?

Just one slight issue, CP, is not for everyone equally worth it.
And the price / CP issue is still there.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Assuming this, then you would have a general limit of CP that get's counted down then?
So that you are forced to decide to either pay balanced force tax or CP?

Just one slight issue, CP, is not for everyone equally worth it.
And the price / CP issue is still there.

General would probably be the way. Guess another could be warlord related but that has it's own can of issues.

Cost of stratagems would need changing likely yes but then again they need to be redone anyway.

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Assuming this, then you would have a general limit of CP that get's counted down then?
So that you are forced to decide to either pay balanced force tax or CP?

Just one slight issue, CP, is not for everyone equally worth it.
And the price / CP issue is still there.

General would probably be the way. Guess another could be warlord related but that has it's own can of issues.

Cost of stratagems would need changing likely yes but then again they need to be redone anyway.

TBF, half the stratagems aren't really stratagems but upgrades that should have a pricepoint instead. (cue AA missile, grenadiers, skarboyz, 'ard boyz, etc....) then there are stratagems that are not really stratagems but just stupid, (cue double shooting , double fighting, etc) even as a CSM player that get's everything priced as if constantly doubleshooting and or double fighting or bust it gets annoying.

Stratagems should be (imo) movement related things, prepared positions, minefields, reserves, off map artillery, off map airstrikes, etc. and NOT, yolo i now just double my shooting because i say so.....

But again, that's an opinion..

Well wouldn't find me complaining if scope of stratagems were limited and several would become upgrades instead

tneva82 wrote:
Well wouldn't find me complaining if scope of stratagems were limited and several would become upgrades instead

I believe the best part is, that with the AL statagems they kinda went that route, but combat drugs and geneteic experimentation is locked to one squad again for EC.... not to mention butcher terminators

Double shooting/fighting strategems need to go. As do "combos". One strategem per unit per phase. Cut down on the whole taking turns erasing each others armies thing.

Combos are for ccg this is supposed to be a wargame.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well wouldn't find me complaining if scope of stratagems were limited and several would become upgrades instead

I believe the best part is, that with the AL statagems they kinda went that route, but combat drugs and geneteic experimentation is locked to one squad again for EC.... not to mention butcher terminators

But ba get all the death company intercessors they can pay for.

Fething goldilocks cannibals.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Double shooting/fighting strategems need to go. As do "combos". One strategem per unit per phase. Cut down on the whole taking turns erasing each others armies thing.

Combos are for ccg this is supposed to be a wargame.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well wouldn't find me complaining if scope of stratagems were limited and several would become upgrades instead

I believe the best part is, that with the AL statagems they kinda went that route, but combat drugs and geneteic experimentation is locked to one squad again for EC.... not to mention butcher terminators

But ba get all the death company intercessors they can pay for.

Fething goldilocks cannibals.

Why beeing mad at them? I find it good that they atleast CAN get their hallmark unit gimmick on the replacement marine.
Unlike WE, because feth you and the horse you rode in on if you want more the 1 unit of butcher terminators.
(also even more glorious, EC, the apothecary genetic experimentation legion, can modify ONE! unit.)

Not mad at ba players or sm players but gw for giving all these great fluffy rules without the limits they put on them for other factions.

Like giving night lords "a talent for murder " but splitting it up between a warlord trait and a stratagem.

Plus was never a big fan of the whole "golden haired angelic warrior " thing.