Preview on point changes...

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**Xenomancers**

Pyroalchi wrote:
I just took a quick look at the squiggbuggy and I'm also... lets say surprised that one could consider those to compete for best unit even at 100 points. When I compare it to IG Tauros Assault Vehicles with Grenade launchers (which is definitly no competetive choice and the GL is stupidly expensive, but the model and weapons are quite comparable):

You get almost 2 Tauros (114) for one Squigbuggy (now 100). If you compare it to the old cost you could even add two Hunter Killer missiles and be still cheaper than 140 points.

The Tauri
- are faster (M14 vs. M10)
- sturdier (T5, 2 x W6, 4+,5++ vs T6, W9, 4+)
- a bit weaker in melee (both have A4 at WS4 but the Buggy has + 2S and -1AP)
- quite comparably in the firepower department:

Boom Squiggs are almost identical to Krak missiles, the buggy does on average 2.66 hits, the Tauri 2, so the buggy is slightly better
on average 4,67 Bile Squig hits wounding non vehicles at 4+ vs on average 7 Frag grenades => the Buggy is better against T6+ non vehicles and equal against T4-5 non.vehicles. Otherwise it is worse.
bitey Squigs are not really comparable, but mathhammering around they only beat the Tauri Krak Grenades vs T3,T4,T7+ with a 2+ save and no Invulnarability save and then only by a hair.
The Buggy now still has his shotgun and grenades and DAKKADAKKADAKKA going for him, so I would say he has a slight advantage in firepower overall at 100 points.

So taken together I would argue: The Squigbuggy is not really better than 2 Tauri which are a very uncompetitive choice for guard. At 140 points he would be more expensive than those two vehicles who could then even pack two Hunter Killer missiles and still be cheaper. At 100 points I personally would say he is fairly costed against the Tauri - which is still not really fair against the rest of the IG codex, let alone some options of other factions.

Uhh..A torox has heavy weapons. Squiggy has assault weapons. Only A prime can take missiles too. Missle and autocannon is a good build coming out to 130 points. This is a nice little vehicle but moving and shooting it is hitting on 4's. It doesn't have exploding 6's. It is much worse in melle. Can't get a 5++ save from an auto include model and it can't benifit from an army wide aura of +1 to hit (it will in fact have no trait unless you go straight scions). It also doesn't have really good mutiple fire modes. There is no reason to ever shoot frag with a missle. There is a reason to shoot 3d6 poision rounds at something. Also - tarox can't take HKM. PLus it degrades (this is very bad). You criminally undervalue dakka dakka dakka.

Lets also preclude this by saying a taurox prime is a really good vehicle for it's cost. I would take it over literally ever space marine vehicle if I could that wasn't a dread. It used to get spammed early in the edition but - the fact it can't move and shoot well and is a dedicated transport doesn't help it. It is certainly not helped by the fact it is useless if it gets in assault. Plus the fact it's in an army that you can just get a command tank for a little bit more.

Not everything is about unit profiles. The units you have to bring with sometimes often factor huge into the equation here.

**T1nk4bell**

Dunno where the problem is but the squig buggy is by far the most crappy buggy in the codex. Chapter approved helped him nothing.
It's crap
Long range fire with average killing what 1-2 Marines if you're lucky for 100 points common....

**Xenomancers**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I have long stated that Ultramarines are where space marines should be in terms of power. Ultras have comparable WR to strong competitive armies like Eldar and tau. There should be aproximately 0 outrage coming for Ultras compared to tau and eldar.

Wow, that's super, and completely useless, since that win rate would be significantly higher if they weren't running into other absurdly overpowered Marine lists that are lowering that win percentage. We've basically moved into the 'good guy with a gun' narrative portion of the argument.

The faction you are has 0 impact of the matchups you face. Ultramarines compared to CWE have to face literally the same armies and win roughly the same amount - though they probably have different strong and weak matchups.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

T1nk4bell wrote:
Dunno where the problem is but the squig buggy is by far the most crappy buggy in the codex. Chapter approved helped him nothing.
It's crap
Long range fire with average killing what 1-2 Marines if you're lucky for 100 points common....

You see this is why this game will always fail at balance. It's literally one of the best units in the game for 100 points and you think it is bad. You probably think a 31 point smasha gun is "just okay" too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gonna eat you guys alive when ork squig buggies start dominating the meta. Like really. I am not going to go soft.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Xenomancers wrote:
The faction you are has 0 impact of the matchups you face.

No kidding, you don't say?

Xenomancers wrote:
Ultramarines compared to CWE have to face literally the same armies and win roughly the same amount - though they probably have different strong and weak matchups.

Yes, wow, thanks for more completely useless analysis. You sure you didn't need a few more sentences to say...absolutely nothing?

**Darsath**

I will say, this argument is likely to be settled soon. I'm sure people will try the new buggies either way, and while our reading of the results should always be tempered with healthy optimism and scepticism respectively, the main question to be answered for the moment is whether they are good or not versus the current Space Marines. Not just because they're the strongest competitively, but also because they're the most popular faction, thus the most likely faction you'll face.

**Marin**

Xenomancers wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:
wighti wrote:

Eldar is a mess. Some good drops...Hemlock drops in price??? Meanwhile the CHE raised while not raising the regular crimson hunter while simultaneously dropping bright lances?? BL drop is pretty welcome but then why the heck am I paying 25 for a lascannon still? Infantry are still overcosted as crap...guardians 8 points? DE 11? Give me a break these units need to come down to 6 and 9 respectively. Have not reviewed thoroughly enough.

Actually you are wrong, hemlock did not go down in price and the normal Crimson hunter did go up in price.
They did not drooped bright lanced, they dropped twin bright lance that can only be used by few units.

**Pyroalchi**

@ Xeno: read carefully: Tauros not Taurox. The Taurox you are referring to is a transport with heavy weapons. The Tauros I talked about mentioning its grenade launcher and similarity is a fast attack option from the index, a buggy with effectively a twin grenade launcher.

Therefore: yes it has an inv, yes it has assault weapons, yes it can be included in any guard regiment including Elysians, yes it can take HK missile.

I know Tauros and Taurox sound similar, yet when you looked at the Transport whose datasheet in no way resembles what I described, did you not consider that I might be talking about another unit?

**An Actual Englishman**

Darsath wrote:
I will say, this argument is likely to be settled soon. I'm sure people will try the new buggies either way, and while our reading of the results should always be tempered with healthy optimism and scepticism respectively, the main question to be answered for the moment is whether they are good or not versus the current Space Marines. Not just because they're the strongest competitively, but also because they're the most popular faction, thus the most likely faction you'll face.

The answer to that question is no. Quite obviously. Let Xeno live in his insane dream world where reality is as he wishes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
You see this is why this game will always fail at balance. It's literally one of the best units in the game for 100 points and you think it is bad. You probably think a 31 point smasha gun is "just okay" too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gonna eat you guys alive when ork squig buggies start dominating the meta. Like really. I am not going to go soft.

I'd blame the lack of game balance more because of the insane ramblings of certain Marine fanboys, as much as anything else...

**Tyel**

Given the Squigbuggy can't kill anything I'm mystified to how it can dominate the meta.

**Martel732**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Darsath wrote:
I will say, this argument is likely to be settled soon. I'm sure people will try the new buggies either way, and while our reading of the results should always be tempered with healthy optimism and scepticism respectively, the main question to be answered for the moment is whether they are good or not versus the current Space Marines. Not just because they're the strongest competitively, but also because they're the most popular faction, thus the most likely faction you'll face.

The answer to that question is no. Quite obviously. Let Xeno live in his insane dream world where reality is as he wishes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
You see this is why this game will always fail at balance. It's literally one of the best units in the game for 100 points and you think it is bad. You probably think a 31 point smasha gun is "just okay" too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gonna eat you guys alive when ork squig buggies start dominating the meta. Like really. I am not going to go soft.

I'd blame the lack of game balance more because of the insane ramblings of certain Marine fanboys, as much as anything else...

Balance has always been bad and marines have been med iocre or poor for most of the history.

**T1nk4bell**

Sry but what I missed that the squig buggy is good?
I don't like bad balance but the squig buggy brings nothing?
The only good option is the boom squig
Heavy and normal squig launcha together is 3 hits average
Let's say vs a primaris = 2 wounds average = 1 unsaved
For 100 points of shooting you kill average one freaking marine.... That's by far not good and that on a squishy platform.
I see the meta running

if you have 9 of them you nearly kill a squat intercessor
For screen clearing we got better options like a kbb or a ton of others.

**Sterling191**

Tyel wrote:
Given the Squigbuggy can't kill anything I'm mystified to how it can dominate the meta.

That's its power. Its so good, it doesnt have to do anything. You just put it on the table and you win!

**T1nk4bell**

Fakt is it has the dmg outcome like 3 unbuffed lootaz for more than double the points, just makes no sense

**AlmightyWalrus**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I have long stated that Ultramarines are where space marines should be in terms of power. Ultras have comparable WR to strong competitive armies like Eldar and tau. There should be aproximately 0 outrage coming for Ultras compared to tau and eldar.

Wow, that's super, and completely useless, since that win rate would be significantly higher if they weren't running into other absurdly overpowered Marine lists that are lowering that win percentage.

You don't know that's what would happen if the stronger Marines lists (in particular Iron Hands) were removed though. It is one possibility, but another is that other factions also would become more competetive because they in turn would also not be held back by the now-gone lists.

Change the lynchpin of the metagame and you change the whole metagame; other parts won't remain static.

**Eonfuzz**

Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

T1nk4bell wrote:
Dunno where the problem is but the squig buggy is by far the most crappy buggy in the codex. Chapter approved helped him nothing.
It's crap
Long range fire with average killing what 1-2 Marines if you're lucky for 100 points common....

You see this is why this game will always fail at balance. It's literally one of the best units in the game for 100 points and you think it is bad. You probably think a 31 point smasha gun is "just okay" too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gonna eat you guys alive when ork squig buggies start dominating the meta. Like really. I am not going to go soft.

Oh xeno some of the things you say are so backwards I can't help but think you're some advanced markov chain bot

**Spoletta**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I have long stated that Ultramarines are where space marines should be in terms of power. Ultras have comparable WR to strong competitive armies like Eldar and tau. There should be aproximately 0 outrage coming for Ultras compared to tau and eldar.

Wow, that's super, and completely useless, since that win rate would be significantly higher if they weren't running into other absurdly overpowered Marine lists that are lowering that win percentage.

You don't know that's what would happen if the stronger Marines lists (in particular Iron Hands) were removed though. It is one possibility, but another is that other factions also would become more competetive because they in turn would also not be held back by the now-gone lists.

Change the lynchpin of the metagame and you change the whole metagame; other parts won't remain static.

I think so too. The meta has changed really a lot in the last couple of months. CA and the PA changed everything that we know.

IH and IF are keeping a lid on it so we can't see, but they are not going to last, especially IF.

They had the bad bad idea of taking all the 5 five top spots at the last GW GT.

That is a death sentence for any faction.

**vict0988**

Spoletta wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I have long stated that Ultramarines are where space marines should be in terms of power. Ultras have comparable WR to strong competitive armies like Eldar and tau. There should be aproximately 0 outrage coming for Ultras compared to tau and eldar.

Wow, that's super, and completely useless, since that win rate would be significantly higher if they weren't running into other absurdly overpowered Marine lists that are lowering that win percentage.

You don't know that's what would happen if the stronger Marines lists (in particular Iron Hands) were removed though. It is one possibility, but another is that other factions also would become more competetive because they in turn would also not be held back by the now-gone lists.

Change the lynchpin of the metagame and you change the whole metagame; other parts won't remain static.

I think so too. The meta has changed really a lot in the last couple of months. CA and the PA changed everything that we know.

IH and IF are keeping a lid on it so we can't see, but they are not going to last, especially IF.

They had the bad bad idea of taking all the 5 five top spots at the last GW GT.

That is a death sentence for any faction.

It's funny, three years ago that'd be business as usual.

**Karol**

dont marines have spots in the top 8s of all big events, but the events themselfs are kept being won, by tau lists with the same riptides, drones, commanders etc, at least in the US?

**An Actual Englishman**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I have long stated that Ultramarines are where space marines should be in terms of power. Ultras have comparable WR to strong competitive armies like Eldar and tau. There should be aproximately 0 outrage coming for Ultras compared to tau and eldar.

Wow, that's super, and completely useless, since that win rate would be significantly higher if they weren't running into other absurdly overpowered Marine lists that are lowering that win percentage.

You don't know that's what would happen if the stronger Marines lists (in particular Iron Hands) were removed though. It is one possibility, but another is that other factions also would become more competetive because they in turn would also not be held back by the now-gone lists.

Change the lynchpin of the metagame and you change the whole metagame; other parts won't remain static.

This argument would hold a lot more weight if all marine sub factions weren’t over performing in the current meta. Nerf IH severely and IF, RG, WS or UM just take their place. As well you know - the best counter to an Iron Hands list currently is a WS or RG list. This says nothing of the incredibly powerful marine soup list and successor chapter lists that have also been dominating nor the impact the now buffed Black Templars, BA and soon to be buffed DA, GK and SW sub factions have on the meta.

Finally, let’s not conveniently forget that so far each and every PA book has buffed the ‘Not Marine’ factions far less than the Marine factions.

There is nothing to say that GW even see this as a problem, less that they have any idea how to fix it and that Marines won’t continue to dominate for the foreseeable future. When you have playtesters claiming things like ‘people are overreacting, Marines are beatable’ or ‘wait and see what PA will bring’ or ‘the meta needs to settle, that’s all’ I have very little faith that anything will change for the better.

Related to all of this is the fact that GW saw the need to buff Marines twice since their supplement releases - once in PA2 and again in CA. It beggars belief.

**vict0988**

Karol wrote:
dont marines have spots in the top 8s of all big events, but the events themselfs are kept being won, by tau lists with the same riptides, drones, commanders etc, at least in the US?

Nah, Tau are winning 1/8 tournaments, Marines are winning 3/8.

**Karol**

But that is the difference per captia right? There is a lot more marine players at events then tau, if you normalize the numbers between marines and tau, the tau players are wrecking up numbers no other NPC faction achives in w40k.

**An Actual Englishman**

Karol wrote:
But that is the difference per captia right? There is a lot more marine players at events then tau, if you normalize the numbers between marines and tau, the tau players are wrecking up numbers no other NPC faction achives in w40k.

No.

Average Marine First Loss and TWiP (going 4-0 at a 5 round or 5-0 at a 6 round event) statistics are VASTLY MORE than they should be considering their relative numbers. They only make up around 30% of the field yet they dominate the top placements, as we have seen time and time again at multiple tournaments.

E - Tau have 2 dedicated, extremely good players that make up the majority of their top performances the last 9 months. They sneak a few wins, sure. This doesn't compare to the Marine numbers.

**Karol**

If few people can consitantly win against a large number of players, against less flexible lists, as tau have only one codex, while marines have multiple ones and can soup, and have stuff like supplements. Then clearly tau are the superior faction to play, specially when tau practicaly specilize in taking out marine armies without specialising in to it. As long as they don't run in to an orc or gsc army game 1-2, they have a huge chance to face marines later on.

**An Actual Englishman**

Karol wrote:
If few people can consitantly win against a large number of players, against less flexible lists, as tau have only one codex, while marines have multiple ones and can soup, and have stuff like supplements. Then clearly tau are the superior faction to play, specially when tau practicaly specilize in taking out marine armies without specialising in to it. As long as they don't run in to an orc or gsc army game 1-2, they have a huge chance to face marines later on.

You don't seem to understand the statistics I've provided you. I don't think anyone, even the most fanatic GK supporter, would consider Tau to be superior to codex 2.0 Marines.

Just to get this straight - you're suggesting that a faction that can beat another as long as it doesn't run into certain other factions early on, is better than a faction that can simply beat all of those factions and only struggles against its own? Right.

**AaronWilson**

After recently buying some craftworlds I was glad to see my list hasn't been blasted apart!

**Sunny Side Up**

Tau are doing pretty well into Marines.

However, if Marines get toned down a bit and more Daemons, Eldar, etc.. show up again, Tau might lose a step just by that. Also, some of the new Chaos Marines stuff and the plethora of no-overwatch, no-fallback rules will hurt Tau if (if!) they show up in larger numbers.

That said, shooting Shield Drones 5 turns out of 6 isn't the most fun way to play Warhammer 40K. Similar to the Eldar-Flyer lists of 2-3 months ago, it's not super-op as far as tournament winnings go (though it could/can win tournaments if you didn't run into bad match-ups), but for people that just bring their favourite army to an event because they wanna have a fun weekend of playing toy solders, it's a very, very dull 3 hours to sit through.

**Karol**

An Actual Englishman wrote:

You don't seem to understand the statistics I've provided you. I don't think anyone, even the most fanatic GK supporter, would consider Tau to be superior to codex 2.0 Marines.

Just to get this straight - you're suggesting that a faction that can beat another as long as it doesn't run into certain other factions early on, is better than a faction that can simply beat all of those factions and only struggles against its own? Right.

Well of course same way as in sports. If my only bad side are 180+ left handed people, at in my age and weight class those are limited to 3 people in the entire country. And I am good vs everyone else, then as long as I don't get matched against them in the elimination rounds or back to back in the swiss rounds, am okey.

As the good vs marines thing goes. Now I don't know it works under the rule packs played in UK, but under ITC and under what we play, Tau seem to have no problem beating even the most powerful marine lists.

Am not sure am following the GK part though, I don't think there are regular GK tournament fans, unless right now they play other armies.

That said, shooting Shield Drones 5 turns out of 6 isn't the most fun way to play Warhammer 40K. Similar to the Eldar-Flyer lists of 2-3 months ago, it's not super-op as far as tournament winnings go (though it could/can win tournaments if you didn't run into bad match-ups), but for people that just bring their favourite army to an event because they wanna have a fun weekend of playing toy solders, it's a very, very dull 3 hours to sit through.

that is true. I think that maybe what we have problem is the number of list a faction or codex can access. A sm player build the most brutal of tournament armies for his rule set. But he can also build a casual list, which is not going to be bad. A tau player, has the option of a really good tournament list or nothing. It seems to be the same for many other factions. With the tau the problem, which to me is not a problem a tall, comes from the fact that their tournament aka good is very good and on top of it all it is good vs the majority of armies being played. Considering the opinions about tau and tau players, I think it may have been historicaly so too. Or people just dislike tau, just because.

**Marin**

Orc buggiest destroying the ITC metta, you heard it here first boyz.

The buggies are coming, the buggies are commmmiiiing .......

**An Actual Englishman**

Karol wrote:
Now I don't know it works under the rule packs played in UK, but under ITC and under what we play, Tau seem to have no problem beating even the most powerful marine lists.

They do. The stats show this. The stats show that EVERY faction struggles beating Marines excluding, you could argue, Necrons (though they haven't played many games) and Chaos Daemons. These stats include ITC games.

**Blackie**

Amazing! The squigbuggy, one of the crappiest unit in the entire 40k universe, is suddenly good now. Or even one of the most powerful units in the game for someone