Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2019/11/30 04:14:08
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Smirrors wrote: So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.
It really would speed things along. Rerolls aren't needed at all. I think the game is just too lethal as it is and a lot of that is because of rerolls.
2019/11/30 05:03:03
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Smirrors wrote: So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.
It really would speed things along. Rerolls aren't needed at all. I think the game is just too lethal as it is and a lot of that is because of rerolls.
This would likely result in even bigger armies as effectiveness dropped off. People complained soooooo much about randomness in previous versions and now we want to swing the pendulum back?
2019/11/30 05:33:21
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Smirrors wrote: So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.
It really would speed things along. Rerolls aren't needed at all. I think the game is just too lethal as it is and a lot of that is because of rerolls.
This would likely result in even bigger armies as effectiveness dropped off. People complained soooooo much about randomness in previous versions and now we want to swing the pendulum back?
There is far more randomness now. Weapons shooting D (some number) shots. Weapons do D (some number) damage, charge rolls are 2 D6 randomness....
The only crap RNG was when units arrived from reserve. Scatter was fine, and flamers were IMO better with the tear drop template.
Smirrors wrote: So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.
It really would speed things along. Rerolls aren't needed at all. I think the game is just too lethal as it is and a lot of that is because of rerolls.
This would likely result in even bigger armies as effectiveness dropped off. People complained soooooo much about randomness in previous versions and now we want to swing the pendulum back?
Reroll auras represent much of what's currently wrong with 40k so they absolutely should be removed. Right now, several armies have so many reroll abilities the dice aren't actually random any more. So yes, having the pendulum swing back towards more randomness would be a welcome change. Randomness is required in any wargame and is not inherently bad as you seem to imply. What's important is the degree of randomness and its impact on decision making in the game. The bigger armies is also purely because of GW's approach to points changes - everything gets cheaper rather than making things more expensive, so we now have a situation where a 2000 point army after next week's Chapter Approved could be more like a 2300 point army from the beginning of 8th edition. Reverse the direction of those changes (keep most of the weaker stuff at its current points cost and make the average/good stuff more expensive while keeping the relative values intact) and I think the game would improve.
2019/11/30 09:15:04
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Smirrors wrote: So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.
It really would speed things along. Rerolls aren't needed at all. I think the game is just too lethal as it is and a lot of that is because of rerolls.
This would likely result in even bigger armies as effectiveness dropped off. People complained soooooo much about randomness in previous versions and now we want to swing the pendulum back?
The thing is, this is not true for everyone. A marine player is now used to high AP, re-rolling all hits and re-rolling most to wound rolls, so he can basically expect that something he is shooting at an optimal target will deal damage, so no next to no randomness for him. You have basically taken dice out of the equation. Unless you do that for everyone, this needs to go.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/11/30 09:18:04
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
There is far more randomness now. Weapons shooting D (some number) shots. Weapons do D (some number) damage, charge rolls are 2 D6 randomness....
The only crap RNG was when units arrived from reserve. Scatter was fine, and flamers were IMO better with the tear drop template.
But isn't that why those random shot or random wound doing weapons are skiped over weapons that do flat d2 or d3 damage? Lascannon and multimelta are suppose to be the pinacle of anti tank weapons, but in game turns autocannons, heavy bolters and such weapons used more often.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo 782835 10646278 wrote:
Just because people complain doesn't mean you should listen to them!
That is a dangerous argument to make. It can back fire strongly, once you get something bad for your army. I am not sure what is fun in moving your lascannons in to postion, planning your deployment, maybe some stratagem and screening is used too, and then when you engage a tank you miss 2 out of 4, and then do 2 Wounds to a something that has to die turn one. And you lose the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/30 09:21:30
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/11/30 12:30:12
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
The thing is, this is not true for everyone. A marine player is now used to high AP, re-rolling all hits and re-rolling most to wound rolls, so he can basically expect that something he is shooting at an optimal target will deal damage, so no next to no randomness for him. You have basically taken dice out of the equation. Unless you do that for everyone, this needs to go.
I mean it's pretty much just marines doing most of the this, right? I don't think we get rid of rerolls. We just maybe drop the cost of buffers and make auras one unit at a time.
But then that's a whole huge mess. I guess maybe a 'matched play only patch'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/30 12:40:00
2019/11/30 13:47:51
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Why not? Do we need to be rolling 5-7 sets of dice per attack or is that just slowing the game down? (To-hit roll, to-hit rerolls, to-wound roll, to-wound rerolls, save roll, save rerolls, FNP, FNP rerolls?)
The thing is, this is not true for everyone. A marine player is now used to high AP, re-rolling all hits and re-rolling most to wound rolls, so he can basically expect that something he is shooting at an optimal target will deal damage, so no next to no randomness for him. You have basically taken dice out of the equation. Unless you do that for everyone, this needs to go.
I mean it's pretty much just marines doing most of the this, right? I don't think we get rid of rerolls. We just maybe drop the cost of buffers and make auras one unit at a time.
But then that's a whole huge mess. I guess maybe a 'matched play only patch'.
You can make a cake without breaking some eggs, right?
I think the only re-roll mechanics should be the ones which allow you to re-roll single dice, all the others are just a waste of everyone's time and make certain armies just way to reliable.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/12/01 09:40:21
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
A dice game without randomness has clearly lost its way.
Hitting on 2s or 3s with effecitve weapons is already huge, those massive re-rolls that SM have are pure nonsense.
Generally speaking I think all the auras that give re-rolls are bad game design, they simply should be +1 to hit, wound, etc... with rolls of 1s being always failures.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: ...everything gets cheaper rather than making things more expensive, so we now have a situation where a 2000 point army after next week's Chapter Approved could be more like a 2300 point army from the beginning of 8th edition.
That's also sad reality. My current SW favorite 2000 points list was way above the budget during index times and now looking at the CA leaks I have another 90 points available thanks to the new points reduction. The 2-3 lists I'm currently playing really are 2300-2500 armies from the beginning of the edition, despite I'm stubborn in bringing ass can razorbacks which are the only units that went up in points
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/01 09:45:18
2019/12/01 11:12:44
Subject: Re:40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: Or we ditch the mass aura abuse and go back to attaching a character to a unit to grant it the bonus.
I'd take death stars back over doomblob.
Blobs make more sense though compared to your all important dude only benefitting one unit.
Except you not get conga lines where only one dude needs to be within aura range to benefit the unit... It should be models wholly within or nada.
To be honest I just think re-roll abilities should be cut bar like one or two expensive strats allowing for re-roll 1's in specific circumstances. Like if unit is not within terrain feature, there is no friendly units between firing unit and target unit etc.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: Or we ditch the mass aura abuse and go back to attaching a character to a unit to grant it the bonus.
I'd take death stars back over doomblob.
Blobs make more sense though compared to your all important dude only benefitting one unit.
Except you not get conga lines where only one dude needs to be within aura range to benefit the unit... It should be models wholly within or nada.
To be honest I just think re-roll abilities should be cut bar like one or two expensive strats allowing for re-roll 1's in specific circumstances. Like if unit is not within terrain feature, there is no friendly units between firing unit and target unit etc.
Well it sounds like you want more stuff to operate like Necron Overlords and Commanders. I'm not against that but it would require a giant rewrite.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/12/01 23:13:59
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Just my two cents, if we're wishlisting. I'm probably gonna get roasted for some of these ideas, but they're just my opinions and I am prone to forgetting/failing to consider something.
1- Incentivize mono-faction under 1000 points. Soup shouldn't even exist at this level (Inquisition, Assassins, etc. can get a pass if certain requirements are met).
2- Take a note from Horus Heresy, and establish HQ 'tiers'- require certain point levels, detachments, and even units to have a certain "level" of HQ as a tax.
3- Require army point and HQ level minimums for LoW and Flyers. There's no reason a Knight should appear in a 500-point game. And "pLaY tHe ObJeCtIvEs" only works while you still have models on the table.
4- Make weapon turrets and locations matter, perhaps on a card for easy reference for the vehicle.
5- Require a certain % of a model to be visible in order for it to shoot or be shot, and exclude protrusions such as antennae, spines, etc. True Line of Sight is a joke.
6- Cover should make you harder to hit, not harder when you get hit.
7- Establish a clear balance for each faction's capability to deal or mitigate mortal wounds- and limiting the amount possible through some means might be an option.
8- Auras should be gone, because bubbles of dudes marching across the table isn't fun. Make these auras some kind of buff that can be applied to one or more units, depending on the HQ level.
9- Stop restricting valid units to "exactly the things in and on the box", it reduces conversion/kitbashing to being aesthetics without function and has no incentive.
10- Subfaction super-doctrines should be taxed as a purchased package during list creation, sort of like Formations in AoS. Require and restrict units as required for balance.
11- Offer an upgrade to 'level up' select units to Veteran Status with additional attack.
12- Rework transports from the ground up, incentivize their use and make them worth taking again, but not a requirement for infantry.
13- Bring back vehicle damage rolls and combine them with the wound track system, make the performance of a damaged vehicle more random and unpredictable.
14- Develop additional means for charging out of deep strike- it shouldn't be able to happen all the time, but there should be ways to reliably execute this for melee-focused units.
15- Bring Horus Heresy models into 40k, I'm sure all 10 people on each continent that still play HH won't be bothered by that at all.
16- Consider "Underdog Strategems" that only work when players have a large VP disparity (maybe optional?)
Open to other thoughts.
Oo forgot one. Just lose mortal wounds...period
Mortal wounds are fine in smaller doses. However GW being uncreative slaps them everywhere. Then there's the fact all offensive Psyker powers do it too.
Then what kind of damage should offensive psychic powers do? How does an armor save stop your soul from being burned out and such? Do you suggest we get a new ‘psychic wounds’ system, and each unit now gets a psychic save? That’s a hole bunch of rules bloat. Goodness’s sake, we can’t have any more rules! You should feel bad as a person for recommending something so daf.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
2019/12/02 05:58:32
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Just my two cents, if we're wishlisting. I'm probably gonna get roasted for some of these ideas, but they're just my opinions and I am prone to forgetting/failing to consider something.
1- Incentivize mono-faction under 1000 points. Soup shouldn't even exist at this level (Inquisition, Assassins, etc. can get a pass if certain requirements are met).
2- Take a note from Horus Heresy, and establish HQ 'tiers'- require certain point levels, detachments, and even units to have a certain "level" of HQ as a tax.
3- Require army point and HQ level minimums for LoW and Flyers. There's no reason a Knight should appear in a 500-point game. And "pLaY tHe ObJeCtIvEs" only works while you still have models on the table.
4- Make weapon turrets and locations matter, perhaps on a card for easy reference for the vehicle.
5- Require a certain % of a model to be visible in order for it to shoot or be shot, and exclude protrusions such as antennae, spines, etc. True Line of Sight is a joke.
6- Cover should make you harder to hit, not harder when you get hit.
7- Establish a clear balance for each faction's capability to deal or mitigate mortal wounds- and limiting the amount possible through some means might be an option.
8- Auras should be gone, because bubbles of dudes marching across the table isn't fun. Make these auras some kind of buff that can be applied to one or more units, depending on the HQ level.
9- Stop restricting valid units to "exactly the things in and on the box", it reduces conversion/kitbashing to being aesthetics without function and has no incentive.
10- Subfaction super-doctrines should be taxed as a purchased package during list creation, sort of like Formations in AoS. Require and restrict units as required for balance.
11- Offer an upgrade to 'level up' select units to Veteran Status with additional attack.
12- Rework transports from the ground up, incentivize their use and make them worth taking again, but not a requirement for infantry.
13- Bring back vehicle damage rolls and combine them with the wound track system, make the performance of a damaged vehicle more random and unpredictable.
14- Develop additional means for charging out of deep strike- it shouldn't be able to happen all the time, but there should be ways to reliably execute this for melee-focused units.
15- Bring Horus Heresy models into 40k, I'm sure all 10 people on each continent that still play HH won't be bothered by that at all.
16- Consider "Underdog Strategems" that only work when players have a large VP disparity (maybe optional?)
Open to other thoughts.
Oo forgot one. Just lose mortal wounds...period
Mortal wounds are fine in smaller doses. However GW being uncreative slaps them everywhere. Then there's the fact all offensive Psyker powers do it too.
Then what kind of damage should offensive psychic powers do? How does an armor save stop your soul from being burned out and such? Do you suggest we get a new ‘psychic wounds’ system, and each unit now gets a psychic save? That’s a hole bunch of rules bloat. Goodness’s sake, we can’t have any more rules! You should feel bad as a person for recommending something so daf.
Better yet- remove armor saves. Roll to hit, roll to wound, apply damage- done.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/02 05:59:35
2019/12/02 06:40:37
Subject: Re:40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: Or we ditch the mass aura abuse and go back to attaching a character to a unit to grant it the bonus.
I'd take death stars back over doomblob.
Blobs make more sense though compared to your all important dude only benefitting one unit.
Except you not get conga lines where only one dude needs to be within aura range to benefit the unit... It should be models wholly within or nada.
To be honest I just think re-roll abilities should be cut bar like one or two expensive strats allowing for re-roll 1's in specific circumstances. Like if unit is not within terrain feature, there is no friendly units between firing unit and target unit etc.
Well it sounds like you want more stuff to operate like Necron Overlords and Commanders. I'm not against that but it would require a giant rewrite.
I don't think that's what he meant. I think he wants all auras to work like the KFF, so you don't have weird conga-lines across the board to your one buff character.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/12/02 08:06:26
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Just my two cents, if we're wishlisting. I'm probably gonna get roasted for some of these ideas, but they're just my opinions and I am prone to forgetting/failing to consider something.
1- Incentivize mono-faction under 1000 points. Soup shouldn't even exist at this level (Inquisition, Assassins, etc. can get a pass if certain requirements are met).
2- Take a note from Horus Heresy, and establish HQ 'tiers'- require certain point levels, detachments, and even units to have a certain "level" of HQ as a tax.
3- Require army point and HQ level minimums for LoW and Flyers. There's no reason a Knight should appear in a 500-point game. And "pLaY tHe ObJeCtIvEs" only works while you still have models on the table.
4- Make weapon turrets and locations matter, perhaps on a card for easy reference for the vehicle.
5- Require a certain % of a model to be visible in order for it to shoot or be shot, and exclude protrusions such as antennae, spines, etc. True Line of Sight is a joke.
6- Cover should make you harder to hit, not harder when you get hit.
7- Establish a clear balance for each faction's capability to deal or mitigate mortal wounds- and limiting the amount possible through some means might be an option.
8- Auras should be gone, because bubbles of dudes marching across the table isn't fun. Make these auras some kind of buff that can be applied to one or more units, depending on the HQ level.
9- Stop restricting valid units to "exactly the things in and on the box", it reduces conversion/kitbashing to being aesthetics without function and has no incentive.
10- Subfaction super-doctrines should be taxed as a purchased package during list creation, sort of like Formations in AoS. Require and restrict units as required for balance.
11- Offer an upgrade to 'level up' select units to Veteran Status with additional attack.
12- Rework transports from the ground up, incentivize their use and make them worth taking again, but not a requirement for infantry.
13- Bring back vehicle damage rolls and combine them with the wound track system, make the performance of a damaged vehicle more random and unpredictable.
14- Develop additional means for charging out of deep strike- it shouldn't be able to happen all the time, but there should be ways to reliably execute this for melee-focused units.
15- Bring Horus Heresy models into 40k, I'm sure all 10 people on each continent that still play HH won't be bothered by that at all.
16- Consider "Underdog Strategems" that only work when players have a large VP disparity (maybe optional?)
Open to other thoughts.
Oo forgot one. Just lose mortal wounds...period
Mortal wounds are fine in smaller doses. However GW being uncreative slaps them everywhere. Then there's the fact all offensive Psyker powers do it too.
Then what kind of damage should offensive psychic powers do? How does an armor save stop your soul from being burned out and such? Do you suggest we get a new ‘psychic wounds’ system, and each unit now gets a psychic save? That’s a hole bunch of rules bloat. Goodness’s sake, we can’t have any more rules! You should feel bad as a person for recommending something so daf.
Psychic powers used to work like regular weapons with a Strength, AP, number of shots and range. In fact, they used to literally be a shooting weapon in some editions. Why shouldn't they be able to be stopped by armour? Some maybe shouldn't, but many psychic powers are described as being physical attacks manifested through psychic means. If I shoot psychic lightning at someone why should that be significantly more dangerous than something like Tesla, for example? You've also completely missed the point that simply dumping a whole load of Mortal Wounds onto targets is frustrating and poor game design, especially when those attacks can ignore character targeting rules. Playing Necrons and watching some armies just remove entire chunks of your army while you don't even get to make saves is not a fun experience.
I think the entire psychic phase needs a rework, TBH. There's no decision making and no counter play making it a dull process of dice rolling which can often be swung by factors outside of any player's control. Manifesting and Denying are just too random and devoid of tactical considerations to make the phase engaging and the powers themselves often lack imagination in their design and execution.
2019/12/02 09:53:18
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Also keep in mind that pre-measuring was not allowed in those editions, so the 6" charge was not a guaranteed charge if you eyeballed the distance wrong. The main argument for moving to 2d6 charges was to keep charges "interesting" because 6th allowed you to measure at any time.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/12/02 11:22:55
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Psychic powers used to work like regular weapons with a Strength, AP, number of shots and range. In fact, they used to literally be a shooting weapon in some editions. Why shouldn't they be able to be stopped by armour? Some maybe shouldn't, but many psychic powers are described as being physical attacks manifested through psychic means. If I shoot psychic lightning at someone why should that be significantly more dangerous than something like Tesla, for example?on.
I don't maybe because it costs 4-6pts per model to cast a 12" 1MW smite? If it was a str anything weapon that is 12" has to hit, wound and then can be saved, they would have to rework some books from ground up as pricing goes. And GW does not seem to do that, or to do that well, if they try. If anything MW generations should be buffed up. A 12" single MW, isn't much comparing to the number of -2AP shots an avarge marine army can through at opposing armies. And then it only gets buffed with all the re-rolls, shot when I die, move without negative mods to hit and no opponent stoping your psychic power cast.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/02 11:23:04
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/12/02 11:23:58
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Slipspace wrote: Playing Necrons and watching some armies just remove entire chunks of your army while you don't even get to make saves is not a fun experience.
Which of those armies aren't Thousand Sons?
In my opinion none of the armies whose psykers have access to only a single discipline are causing any trouble.
There's no decision making and no counter play making it a dull process of dice rolling which can often be swung by factors outside of any player's control. Manifesting and Denying are just too random and devoid of tactical considerations to make the phase engaging and the powers themselves often lack imagination in their design and execution.
Most powers are just X% chance to deal damage to a unit, which is pretty much the same as they did in previous editions, except you have less dice rolls. Whether some of those are too powerful, especially when stacked upon each other, is another discussion.
In general, everything you said also applies to the shooting phase. Higher warpcharge powers are unreliable and must be considered as such, plus you have the play and counter-play of moving in or out of deny range. Non-psychic armies should have the option to engage in that counter-play in a meaningful way.
Rolling armor/invulnerable saves is not a tactical decision - or a decision at all, so nothing would be gained by turning spells back into weapon profiles.
I think the entire psychic phase needs a rework, TBH.
I agree, but I think it should be re-worked into a command phase, where all the special abilities of armies are used - IMO imperial orders, tau elemental abilities, C'Tan abilities, and all the other "pick a unit within X to do something"-abilities also belong here.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/12/02 15:59:23
Subject: Re:40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Smirrors wrote: So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.
It really would speed things along. Rerolls aren't needed at all. I think the game is just too lethal as it is and a lot of that is because of rerolls.
This would likely result in even bigger armies as effectiveness dropped off. People complained soooooo much about randomness in previous versions and now we want to swing the pendulum back?
Reroll auras represent much of what's currently wrong with 40k so they absolutely should be removed. Right now, several armies have so many reroll abilities the dice aren't actually random any more. So yes, having the pendulum swing back towards more randomness would be a welcome change. Randomness is required in any wargame and is not inherently bad as you seem to imply. What's important is the degree of randomness and its impact on decision making in the game. The bigger armies is also purely because of GW's approach to points changes - everything gets cheaper rather than making things more expensive, so we now have a situation where a 2000 point army after next week's Chapter Approved could be more like a 2300 point army from the beginning of 8th edition. Reverse the direction of those changes (keep most of the weaker stuff at its current points cost and make the average/good stuff more expensive while keeping the relative values intact) and I think the game would improve.
Every-time I deep-strike my Obliterators or move them up the field into firing range, I make sure they've been buffed by a sorcerer to hit, a Captain is nearby, VoTlW is active. Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s and +1 to wound. I have yet to play a game where three Obliterators run like this haven't murdered the intended target. And in doing so I keep wondering, "Why am I even rolling this, why not just pay the CP and have my opponent pick up his model."
2019/12/02 16:16:40
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Smirrors wrote: So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.
It really would speed things along. Rerolls aren't needed at all. I think the game is just too lethal as it is and a lot of that is because of rerolls.
This would likely result in even bigger armies as effectiveness dropped off. People complained soooooo much about randomness in previous versions and now we want to swing the pendulum back?
Reroll auras represent much of what's currently wrong with 40k so they absolutely should be removed. Right now, several armies have so many reroll abilities the dice aren't actually random any more. So yes, having the pendulum swing back towards more randomness would be a welcome change. Randomness is required in any wargame and is not inherently bad as you seem to imply. What's important is the degree of randomness and its impact on decision making in the game. The bigger armies is also purely because of GW's approach to points changes - everything gets cheaper rather than making things more expensive, so we now have a situation where a 2000 point army after next week's Chapter Approved could be more like a 2300 point army from the beginning of 8th edition. Reverse the direction of those changes (keep most of the weaker stuff at its current points cost and make the average/good stuff more expensive while keeping the relative values intact) and I think the game would improve.
Every-time I deep-strike my Obliterators or move them up the field into firing range, I make sure they've been buffed by a sorcerer to hit, a Captain is nearby, VoTlW is active. Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s and +1 to wound. I have yet to play a game where three Obliterators run like this haven't murdered the intended target. And in doing so I keep wondering, "Why am I even rolling this, why not just pay the CP and have my opponent pick up his model."
This is main issue with 8th. It’s almost as if removing player interaction on the table was a design goal.
2019/12/02 16:21:11
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Smirrors wrote: So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.
It really would speed things along. Rerolls aren't needed at all. I think the game is just too lethal as it is and a lot of that is because of rerolls.
This would likely result in even bigger armies as effectiveness dropped off. People complained soooooo much about randomness in previous versions and now we want to swing the pendulum back?
Reroll auras represent much of what's currently wrong with 40k so they absolutely should be removed. Right now, several armies have so many reroll abilities the dice aren't actually random any more. So yes, having the pendulum swing back towards more randomness would be a welcome change. Randomness is required in any wargame and is not inherently bad as you seem to imply. What's important is the degree of randomness and its impact on decision making in the game. The bigger armies is also purely because of GW's approach to points changes - everything gets cheaper rather than making things more expensive, so we now have a situation where a 2000 point army after next week's Chapter Approved could be more like a 2300 point army from the beginning of 8th edition. Reverse the direction of those changes (keep most of the weaker stuff at its current points cost and make the average/good stuff more expensive while keeping the relative values intact) and I think the game would improve.
Every-time I deep-strike my Obliterators or move them up the field into firing range, I make sure they've been buffed by a sorcerer to hit, a Captain is nearby, VoTlW is active. Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s and +1 to wound. I have yet to play a game where three Obliterators run like this haven't murdered the intended target. And in doing so I keep wondering, "Why am I even rolling this, why not just pay the CP and have my opponent pick up his model."
This is main issue with 8th. It’s almost as if removing player interaction on the table was a design goal.
Interaction is gone in the IGOUGO system, period.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/12/02 16:39:45
Subject: 40k has lost its way - killing is all that matters
Eldar- 4436 pts
