Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ccs wrote:
Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

Hey now, the exorcist model is great. More things in 40k should be as silly as the exorcist and the new cannoness on a podium.

 vipoid wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

And if we didn't gave those strats people would complain about low MD being useless. I'd rather have them than not.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

And if we didn't gave those strats people would complain about low MD being useless. I'd rather have them than not.

You don't just deliberately blow them on unimportant rolls the way you do with the Tzeentch fate dice in Sigmar?

 Sim-Life wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

And if we didn't gave those strats people would complain about low MD being useless. I'd rather have them than not.

I was more wondering about the practicality of making Miracle Dice automatically 6s, but probably having fewer of them.

Don't know if it would be a better system, I just think it might feel a bit more miraculous.


Then again, if they really wanted Miracle Dice, they should have them count as rolling 7s.

 vipoid wrote:
I was more wondering about the practicality of making Miracle Dice automatically 6s, but probably having fewer of them.

It exists - ebon chalice can exchange any two dice for a 6, but it's faction locked.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ccs wrote:
Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

Hey now, the exorcist model is great. More things in 40k should be as silly as the exorcist and the new cannoness on a podium.

Why even play 40k if you're going to use basic b***h missile turrets anyway? Just get some world war 2 kits and make pew pew noises.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
The codex has lots of builds, unique mechanics, excellent minis and a lot of flavor. It is also by far the most player dependent army since it can customize bonuses and manage rolls.

Strong or weak only time will tell, but dull? I see no reason for that.

I agree that it's definitely not dull. There are all sorts of things you can do with it, list building itself is going to be fun for a good long time.

I disagree that only time will tell. It's weak. It's a weak codex and it's only going to get weaker as time goes on. You'll have a lot of fun with it but you're going to struggle every game(and some games will be impossible from the jump). And who knows, maybe in 10 years when we get the next codex, that one'll be fun AND strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Argent Shroud has the best version of all the subfaction rules of "movement" of the game, to be honest. Tallarn, Deathguard, Black Legion, etc...

If only it mattered. Ooh, we can get stormbolters places 3.5" faster. neat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jarval wrote:
The big thing for me is that the timing on when you spend the Miracle Dice feels off - they're distinctly mediocre as stands, where you have to use them before you roll. If you could spend them to replace a dice result after you rolled, they'd be vastly better and a notably more useful resource.

And absurdly overpowered.

Depending on how many you get of course. 1/game, less so than, say, 1 per 10 models (or however you want).

You get more miracle dice than you can use on Acts of Faith in the current book paradigm, so that would have to be reduced if you were buffing AoF to be an after the fact decision. I personally prefer GW's system a great deal; giving you a large number of miracle dice allows it to be more consistent, rolling a 1 is less of an issue when you are going to have more than that one dice.

Getting more miracle dice than you can use is only possible if you believe the 'one AoF one dice' interpretation. Which is not necessarily the correct one, and is in fact implied to be wrong by several other things in the codex.

If you DO believe the 'one dice, one AoF' interpretation, then there's still no reason you should have extra miracle dice. If you can only use one dice per phase, outside of simulacrum that don't really matter because you can only use one dice so why would you waste them on a battle sister squad, then you shouldn't be investing in getting more dice. The 2 dice you're likely to get per turn+ litanies is plenty in a 'one AoF, one dice' system.

You won't take triumph with 'one AoF, one dice', you won't take a battle sanctum, you won't take Our Martyrd lady, you won't use any of the extra dice stratagems, you won't buy intercessor cherubs, you might not even take beacon of faith. The only thing I can see actually being useful in this kind of system would be Ebon Chalice warlord Trait+Litanies, and even that's only because the ebon chalice warlord trait pays for itself and litanies in addition to guaranteeing a 6 miracle dice.

ERJAK wrote:


Getting more miracle dice than you can use is only possible if you believe the 'one AoF one dice' interpretation. Which is not necessarily the correct one, and is in fact implied to be wrong by several other things in the codex.

If you DO believe the 'one dice, one AoF' interpretation, then there's still no reason you should have extra miracle dice. If you can only use one dice per phase, outside of simulacrum that don't really matter because you can only use one dice so why would you waste them on a battle sister squad, then you shouldn't be investing in getting more dice. The 2 dice you're likely to get per turn+ litanies is plenty in a 'one AoF, one dice' system.

You won't take triumph with 'one AoF, one dice', you won't take a battle sanctum, you won't take Our Martyrd lady, you won't use any of the extra dice stratagems, you won't buy intercessor cherubs, you might not even take beacon of faith. The only thing I can see actually being useful in this kind of system would be Ebon Chalice warlord Trait+Litanies, and even that's only because the ebon chalice warlord trait pays for itself and litanies in addition to guaranteeing a 6 miracle dice.

While I can see the value of getting Miracle Dice specifically for Acts of Faith would be lower, maybe (and I'm really stretching here) you'd want to grab then just to pool for a clutch Divine Intervention or Moment of Grace. Kind of a lot of work to then pay CP to pull em off, but at least you don't care what value is on the dice.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:Speaking as a filthy casual, I think (from what I've gathered so far) the dex is...interesting. it seems to have a lot of interesting flavours that appeal to me narritively. Such a large array of relics has me relishing making up new models with them and coming up with stories for each character that wields them.
Yes there are some changes I'm disappointed at- loss of eviscerators and exorcist losing a point of ap and our vehicles going back to being fragile with the loss of the 4++; still no jump pack Cannoness option so my jump pack Cannoness continues to collect dust from witch hunter days.

But overall I'm looking for wears to the new stories I get to make with the new options.

shhhhh dont use the "C" word in this thread.

A lot of the power of the book comes from rules interpretations (e.g. miracle dice).

Sounds like some people are caught up in the whole " Well if its not imperial fists or iron hands equiv its crap "... and the same people will be complaining when both those armies get well needed nerfs

Well considering marines do make up the majority of armies played, it is hard to prove that being worse then marines isn't being kind of a bad.

And it is not just IF and IH. RG are strong too, as are various salamander, IH and ultramarine succesor armies.

BA are looking at least decent too.
Plus one has to remember, that it is going to take a long time till the marine drops come. And codex don't get better with age. A very good codex over time can become only okeyish after some time. But if you start from the okeyish level, then after a year or so, your at the bottom power wise.

Balanced codex are the second worse thing an army can get, to geting a plain bad codex. Necron were balanced, where are they now?

Yeah that is my fear. Sisters are a good balanced dex which is actively bad.

Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

Tyel wrote:
Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

My opinion as well. I am excited to play the new book but I suspect Miracle Dice won't matter one lick to my strategy. They will be 'nice-to-haves', nothing more.

Karol wrote:
Well considering marines do make up the majority of armies played, it is hard to prove that being worse then marines isn't being kind of a bad.

And it is not just IF and IH. RG are strong too, as are various salamander, IH and ultramarine succesor armies.

BA are looking at least decent too.
Plus one has to remember, that it is going to take a long time till the marine drops come. And codex don't get better with age. A very good codex over time can become only okeyish after some time. But if you start from the okeyish level, then after a year or so, your at the bottom power wise.

Balanced codex are the second worse thing an army can get, to geting a plain bad codex. Necron were balanced, where are they now?

Necrons were pretty bad at release, with only about 5 units being any good. You want to talk a good codex being decimated by codex creep just look at Nids. The nid codex was in a decent place at release, now people consider it around the same place as GK and Necrons. I have no doubt the Sisters dex is probably going the same way but I don't play in a super competitive meta so IDGAF.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah that is my fear. Sisters are a good balanced dex which is actively bad.

well maybe not know, plus to be honest my knowladge of the codex is limited as I am to lazy to read the leaked stuff, and no one is testing them at my store right now. But I did notice that codex or options that were balanced or called cool or interesting, do not age well. Inari and eldar in general, up till their nerf, were aging nice. Stuff like castellans or smash captins was and often still is good, and people called both OP. Balanced tacticals with +1A and better bolters, not so much.

Maybe in 6-12 months marines will end up mid tier, but till then marine players are going to have a lot of fun. even if they don't play the most cutting edge tournament list. Now will SoB players have as much fun in 6 -12 months, I don't know. I hope they will.

Necrons were a weird one, they got released to people screaming “OMG it’s OP!” then about a month later it was ‘hot garbage’ presumably once people learned how to deal with destroyers it became worth less than toilet paper to an enlightened few.

 Sim-Life wrote:



Necrons were pretty bad at release, with only about 5 units being any good. You want to talk a good codex being decimated by codex creep just look at Nids. The nid codex was in a decent place at release, now people consider it around the same place as GK and Necrons. I have no doubt the Sisters dex is probably going the same way but I don't play in a super competitive meta so IDGAF.

Not a tyranid specialist, when they were good, I think I was in like my first month of playing, and then deep strike got nerfed. I think tyranids were a good example of one model carry codex. GK could be the same, I did not know that for a long time, but the teleport NDKs have once allowed them to move like interceptors, not just deep strike. And I tell you this, even with the rule of 3, I could still take 3 GM NDK and 3 regular ones, if each one could jump 30" and then fly around like DP, GK would be a much different army.

as tournament goes, it is hard for me to judge if an army is bad for tournaments. I hope that SoB book is good enough though. Good books just stay good long for better, probably better for casual settings and games. Tournament meta can kill some armies, like eldar, when in casual settings they can still stay strong.

phillv85 wrote:
Necrons were a weird one, they got released to people screaming “OMG it’s OP!” then about a month later it was ‘hot garbage’ presumably once people learned how to deal with destroyers it became worth less than toilet paper to an enlightened few.

The online community likes to think they know what they're talking about but unless its super obviously OP/UP they don't have a clue. I remember when Khorne berserkers were going to destroy entire knight armies in one turn under the weight of attacks when Chaos went from Index to Codex and look how that turned out. The problem is they look at rules in a vacuum on planet bowling ball with no objectives and all your rolls are perfectly statistically average.

Also if they are arguing that the unit sucks then the enemy will always hit, wound and you always fail any save you have and suffer max damage. If the argument is that the unit is OP then the assumption is that you don't resist them in any way and just lie down and let enemy do whatever they want with their improbably perfect dice rolls.

Until the codex wins a tournament the people online won't like it.

No one has any experience at this point and yet it's already bad, apparently lol

 Ishagu wrote:
Until the codex wins a tournament the people online won't like it.

No one has any experience at this point and yet it's already bad, apparently lol

No, but overpriced models with bad stats and a limited weapon options is bad. Miracle dice are neat, but you aren't punishing much with them as you have poor stateline models trying to carry meltas into close range. If you aren't using meltas, then you have one overpriced tank to use miracle dice on. Outside of the miracle dice arent doing a whole lot other than keeping models from running/dying on save rerolls.

Overpriced in your opinion. I see plenty to like. The units are durable for the cost and have great damage output, and more in cc than I expected. 100 Battle sisters with bolters and a 3+ save for 900 points. There ware ways to grant them a 4+ invul and to ignore modifiers up to a 2 for ranged attacks.

You can't say anything is overpriced or underpriced until we have more experience with the new book.

If you don't like them in the meantime don't buy them and move on to a different faction. They aren't being forced on you.

Ah yes, the old "just play another faction" comment. Very helpful

That was one point in my comment. I outlined why I disagree with you.

Until more games have been played your opinion is not compelling to me.

Tyel wrote:
Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

'Low' miracle dice are good for feeding into the Moment of Grace stratagem, which lets you dump 1-3 miracle dice into a roll after its rolled for +1 per die, which lets you turn an important failed hit/wound/save into a success.

There are some other recycling things here and there, but yes, they're mostly 'nice' rather than amazing.


Personally, the daunting thing about the codex is it looks like it really favors a massive horde of 150+ infantry models with a lot of spamming of specific units and I really don't want to do that, especially since the optimization says that <melee> need to be that color and <HS> have to be the other one, and maybe the ones in the middle dancing about all game can be that middle color. And if you want to try to lean hard on the miracle dice, you have to either create gimmick detachments or go all in.

 Ishagu wrote:
That was one point in my comment. I outlined why I disagree with you.

Until more games have been played your opinion is not compelling to me.

I hope you are correct, because I want Sororitas to be a noticable book that makes a bit of a splash, at least on the casual scene. I don't think it will but I hope it does.

Seems that Sister Superior options have changed a bit. Like Intercessor Sergeants they can now have a melee weapon addition to their bolter and pistol (and as bolters are free you always want one.) All of these can also be traded for better weapons.

What's the current ruling on trading items you have gained via trading? You can do that right? Because Superior can trade their bolter for a bolt pistol and bolt pistols can be traded for better pistols. So this would allow for example dual wielding plasma pistols... Not necessarily super effective, but would look cool.

 Ishagu wrote:
Overpriced in your opinion. I see plenty to like. The units are durable for the cost and have great damage output, and more in cc than I expected. 100 Battle sisters with bolters and a 3+ save for 900 points. There ware ways to grant them a 4+ invul and to ignore modifiers up to a 2 for ranged attacks.

You can't say anything is overpriced or underpriced until we have more experience with the new book.

If you don't like them in the meantime don't buy them and move on to a different faction. They aren't being forced on you.

When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

 vipoid wrote:

Then again, if they really wanted Miracle Dice, they should have them count as rolling 7s.

Yeah... that would be miraculous. So many subsystems would break, as they don't have any way to parse a result that isn't 1-6.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:


When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

Never, which makes it an odd claim to make. It was reasonable two editions ago, but... even from the start of 8th edition it wasn't all that durable thanks to weight of fire and even low AP.
Its a downright laughable claim to make now.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:

When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

When they gained the ability to ignore AP -2?