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A.T. wrote:

As characters, vehicles, seraphim, etc all share the same single use of faith each phase the only time you'd likely want to get something out of this would be deny the witch - sacking a good dice and then hoping for another back. In other phases there are almost always going to be better units to use it on unless you are down to fumes and hoping to chuck a 1 or 2 on a random bolt pistol shot and recycle it for something better.

Inferno pistol. 6 for overwatch, generally high for damage. Saving your ass from death with inv save.

tneva82 wrote:
Inferno pistol. 6 for overwatch, generally high for damage. Saving your ass from death with inv save.

These generally involve having your canoness out front and center to either shoot or be shot at, which is probably a better spot for a canoness of another order.

Also the benefit of this particular canoness is recycling low dice for the hopes of high dice - if you want 6s you'll want ebon chalice.

I wouldn't diss Argent Shroud so badly. My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12". Being able to advance and shoot makes getting into this sweet spot much easier, and keeps you from spending so much time in the awkward (for sisters) 12-24" range.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I wouldn't diss Argent Shroud so badly. My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12". Being able to advance and shoot makes getting into this sweet spot much easier, and keeps you from spending so much time in the awkward (for sisters) 12-24" range.

Yeah, thats the other detail. Im watching your comments in the sisters tactics thread with lots of interest. It's got me wondering how well Argent shroud may match up against Tau and Custodes in specific. id love to collect more data on how your progression goes with all this.

I just have to say, reading through the amazing post was both insightful and hilarious

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12".

... how?
It's bolters and meltaguns.
No special ammo, no mortal wounds, no double shooting. How is anyone stunned by this, from a sisters list of all things?

A.T. wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12".

... how?
It's bolters and meltaguns.
No special ammo, no mortal wounds, no double shooting. How is anyone stunned by this, from a sisters list of all things?

Quantity and endurance.

The Tau player killed something like 80 sisters over the course of our 2k game. At the end, I still had:

~20-30 bolters that were constantly in rapid fire (40-60 shots) because I could advance faster than they could withdraw.
~6 of my multimeltas that were constantly in melta range (hospitaller kept bringing them back) that could advance and shoot with no penalty faster than they could withdraw
10 Seraphim, in 2 squads of 5 (one with 4 hand flamers and one with 4 inferno pistols) that simply didn't register on my opponent's target list because they were so small.
~6-8 storm bolters constantly in rapid fire (24-32 shots) because I could advance faster than they could withdraw.
A smattering of my other special weapons - a melta BSS squad ended with 4 members, including 2 meltas and a combi-melta, and a couple of my backfield objective holder squads with heavy bolters were still kicking. I had a heavy flamer ret running around at the end as well, though not close enough to the hospitaller to return any friendos.
My characters were mostly alive (2 of my 3 canonesses died because I hurled them into melee like ballistic missiles, but the others stayed in the blob.)

The Tau were 80 sisters deep (2/3rds of my list) but because of our cheap, durable bodies, that was hardly a dent in my meaningful firepower. I also did clever tricks like hiding most of a Ret Squad out of LOS so that they'd blast them down to a couple members, and then my hospitaller could bring an MM back as they advanced again.

My list has 127 sororitas in it. Kill 80 or so and I've got nearly 50 left, and they're cheap enough that my special weapons are spread all over the place which makes targeting somewhat hard.

A.T. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Inferno pistol. 6 for overwatch, generally high for damage. Saving your ass from death with inv save.

These generally involve having your canoness out front and center to either shoot or be shot at, which is probably a better spot for a canoness of another order.

Also the benefit of this particular canoness is recycling low dice for the hopes of high dice - if you want 6s you'll want ebon chalice.

With game having t1 as standard and even over 20" threat ranges starting 9" from your dz assuming you need no h2h is a mistake. Canoness can provide some h2h counterpunch that can't be shot out first that easily like say repentia

So, I haven't played any games against sisters yet. As a Custodes player this really scares me. Horde lists that have SM level shooting on the cheap cheap. Can we institute a fluff law, that say's it's impossible for Sisters to battle Custodes? It would break lore entirely.

tneva82 wrote:
With game having t1 as standard and even over 20" threat ranges starting 9" from your dz assuming you need no h2h is a mistake. Canoness can provide some h2h counterpunch that can't be shot out first that easily like say repentia

I think you'd still want ebon chalice for that. If you are getting jumped T1 you won't have many miracle dice for a canoness to work with.

A.T. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
With game having t1 as standard and even over 20" threat ranges starting 9" from your dz assuming you need no h2h is a mistake. Canoness can provide some h2h counterpunch that can't be shot out first that easily like say repentia

I think you'd still want ebon chalice for that. If you are getting jumped T1 you won't have many miracle dice for a canoness to work with.

My problem with Ebon Chalice is that getting jumped Turn 1 is perfect for me.

The tau player who played against my 2k list had 3 Zoot Suits (the coldstar commanders that zoot across the table) and he zipped over my lines 40" to kill my warlord after declaring Mont'ka. The nearby in-cover Celestians near an Imagifier with the Tale of the Stoic tanked the rest of his army's firepower. 3 Zoot Suits cleared out (since they fire separately) the models near the Canoness, then he fired 4 meltas at the canoness. It killed her.

Except it didn't, because Divine Intervention is a ridiculous 2CP strat that brought her back with 1 wound left (top of BR 1 means only 1 MD) but the Hospitaller healed her (remember, no roll for them!) up later. My army advanced forwards, and then fired backwards and utterly annihilated the Zoot Suits.

I PRAY to his Imperial majesty that the enemy jumps me turn 1. They'll slam into either Celestians or Battle Sisters, or they'll get overwatched with 12" heavy flamers from the HF Ret squad I run around with. They have automagically delivered themselves into a killing field, and all I lost was, what, 10 Sisters and a Canoness? ~90 points (depending on wargear. Here I am thinking 94 pts for 10 sisters). The Canoness comes back at the end of the phase for 2 CP, and you don't need a 6 on your MD for your canoness to burn it for a wound regeneration.

Your set up with Sisters reminds me of a someone i heard about going all-in on infantry guard awhile back, Unit.

"losses? these are not losses, they go to the Emperor, and their faith will slay you all the same!"

and the thing is.. it kind of works. all sister shooting wants a close range band, and thanks to splitfire and how we can specialize the units the opponent has to hit REALLY hard to wipe out enough stuff to not make losses easier to absorb. if they get really careless, the Hospitaller can put in work.

this is target saturation, but it works. if a character does go down? meh, miracle dice. and if you can wipe something out, more dice!

...and your list traded further durability for more speed at that. that is both worrying to me and amusing. both overall and from a Tau perspective.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I haven't played any games against sisters yet. As a Custodes player this really scares me. Horde lists that have SM level shooting on the cheap cheap. Can we institute a fluff law, that say's it's impossible for Sisters to battle Custodes? It would break lore entirely.

It doesn't really anymore than Custodes existing as a 40k faction does.

Bdrone wrote:
Your set up with Sisters reminds me of a someone i heard about going all-in on infantry guard awhile back, Unit.

"losses? these are not losses, they go to the Emperor, and their faith will slay you all the same!"

and the thing is.. it kind of works. all sister shooting wants a close range band, and thanks to splitfire and how we can specialize the units the opponent has to hit REALLY hard to wipe out enough stuff to not make losses easier to absorb. if they get really careless, the Hospitaller can put in work.

this is target saturation, but it works. if a character does go down? meh, miracle dice. and if you can wipe something out, more dice!

...and your list traded further durability for more speed at that. that is both worrying to me and amusing. both overall and from a Tau perspective.

I don't know if we really need higher durability, that's the thing. Power armor is fairly durable on a 9pt model. Honestly, based on those two games, I'm even thinking of ditching the 5++ bubble from my second-warlord-trait Canoness. It just didn't matter, I barely noticed. It was a blip on the radar in the whirlwind of blown up Sororitas and Tau.

People are talking like Valorous Heart is the answer, and by the Emperor they will be incredibly difficult to deal with. If I went VH and dropped to, say, 120 models, I could fit in two Imagifiers and make 120 3+ save models that ignore up to a -2. But then I can't kill anything, because I move 6" a turn if I want to shoot.

Argent Shroud just feels powerful. The army is like an angry blender. I typically leave a couple of HB squads back, cover the flanks with the 5-girl squads, and then blob up the Celestians, Canonesses, 10-girl BSSs, and 10-girl Rets in the middle of the board. The storm of firepower they grind out is just phenomenal in my experience. I've played Imperial Guard, and they have a ridiculous amount of fairly high-quality artillery fire, and lasguns are fun, but not 12" range heavy flamers fun. Not penaltyless multimeltas that move 7-12" per turn fun.

tneva82 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean TBH I'm not sure how anyone can rate the cannoness as a C+.

if you're willing to take a relic you can get her aura out to 12 inches. a 12 inch captain Aura can be VERY nice.

Just a point but I think you could make an argument that HQs should be judged without Relics, Warlord Traits etc.

Especially in armies with few HQ options.

Except you can buy both of those. And if you start to rate without stuff they can get you need to rate marines without doctrines and super doctrines as well

Only if you're completely disingenuous.

Doctrines and super-doctrines apply to all Marines.

Not all HQs will have a Warlord Trait.
Not all HQs will have a Relic.
HQs can never have the same Relic or Warlord Trait (so if, for example, you are basing your assessment of the Canoness on the Relic that allows her to have a 12" aura, how do you account for subsequent Canonesses who are unable to take that Relic?)
Additional Relics and/or Warlord Traits after the first cost CPs (yet this never seems to be included whenever a HQ is judged with Relics/Warlord Traits included)

Also don't forget the 12" aura is only for her RR1s. It isn't for any other auras she has (e.g. warlord traits). Those can only ever be 9" (and only with the Relic).

Having had practice matches against both new marines and Eldar, I gotta say that a lot of these are pretty low and I definitely don't agree with a lot of the rankings.

Miracle dice are obscenely good in practice. They're better than shock assault, bolter discipline, and ATSKNF combined. They even make up a lot of ground on combat doctrines. A+, regardless of one or multiple dice.

Exorcists being ranked worse than retributors is a joke(no offense intended) 1 Exorcist means your opponent is losing a multi-wound model, or getting their knight bracketed instantly. Combine that with the valorous heart strat and you're looking at a tank that can move twelve and roast a -3 flyer with confidence. It's better than the repulsor executioner in anything but ironhands and one of the best long range shooting vehicles out there. It's B+, A-.

Canoness's awkward equipment options doesn't really stop it from being the second best generic HQ in the game behind the space marine captain(non-primaris) B+

Saint Celestine is better than Junith. Not being locked into an order and giving penitent/mortifiers and invul puts her at a B.

Geminae are an F-. There are NOT worse things. They are the worse unit in the game. I'd rather take servitors.

Zephyrim are a B-. They're incredibly killy and MD guarantee they'll make charges from outside of Assault Centurion overwatch range, but they are fragile, expensive, and locked to bloody rose.

I think you undervalue repentia(and cqc) a single rhino of them can go under the radar and wipe out a castellan in one shot. I'd put them at B- for diffculty in actually using them.

Hospitallers are trash, stratagem or not. D-. UNLESS, you're running 100% infantry lists. Then C.

Arcos were seeing competitive play in sisters list BEFORE and they went down 2ppm. B-B+.

Seraphim are 83 points to instant kill a vehicle while generating a miracle dice, B+ for sure.

Mortifiers are awesome, decent shooting, great melee, cheap, more durable than you'd think, B+

Penitents are just worse mortifiers but still pretty darn good. B

Retributors are budget exorcists and...that's about it. C-C+

Rhinos are rhinos, C+ with an invul.

Immolators are trash. D- without scout, C with it.

All of your convictions except ebon chalice are a full letter grade lower than I'd put them.

As for the whole army? Somewhere in the B range. We'll see if it's + or - in the next few months but realistically we're better than a lot of armies in the game and have favorable matchups against Eldar, Tau, and 3 out of the 4 popular space marine tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A.T. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
With game having t1 as standard and even over 20" threat ranges starting 9" from your dz assuming you need no h2h is a mistake. Canoness can provide some h2h counterpunch that can't be shot out first that easily like say repentia

I think you'd still want ebon chalice for that. If you are getting jumped T1 you won't have many miracle dice for a canoness to work with.

My problem with Ebon Chalice is that getting jumped Turn 1 is perfect for me.

The tau player who played against my 2k list had 3 Zoot Suits (the coldstar commanders that zoot across the table) and he zipped over my lines 40" to kill my warlord after declaring Mont'ka. The nearby in-cover Celestians near an Imagifier with the Tale of the Stoic tanked the rest of his army's firepower. 3 Zoot Suits cleared out (since they fire separately) the models near the Canoness, then he fired 4 meltas at the canoness. It killed her.

Except it didn't, because Divine Intervention is a ridiculous 2CP strat that brought her back with 1 wound left (top of BR 1 means only 1 MD) but the Hospitaller healed her (remember, no roll for them!) up later. My army advanced forwards, and then fired backwards and utterly annihilated the Zoot Suits.

I PRAY to his Imperial majesty that the enemy jumps me turn 1. They'll slam into either Celestians or Battle Sisters, or they'll get overwatched with 12" heavy flamers from the HF Ret squad I run around with. They have automagically delivered themselves into a killing field, and all I lost was, what, 10 Sisters and a Canoness? ~90 points (depending on wargear. Here I am thinking 94 pts for 10 sisters). The Canoness comes back at the end of the phase for 2 CP, and you don't need a 6 on your MD for your canoness to burn it for a wound regeneration.

I gotta say that normally when people use an army in a way other than what I personally think is powerful, my first thought is to scoff at them being inefficient(which is a flaw, I know). But your argent shroud centric strat is deeply interesting. It's a style of army basically no one will expect and very few armies are actually equipped to deal with.

You could argue the theoretical ceiling of a setup like this until the sun went out, but the fact of the matter is that most armies just won't have enough guns to kill you before you start killing them, and you are SHOCKINGLY fast for an infantry army. Even IF Thunderfire cannons won't do much, especially if they have to leave devastator doctrine for whatever reason.

This is definitely a build I want to try.

Who are you and what did you do with the real ERJACK?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I don't know if we really need higher durability, that's the thing. Power armor is fairly durable on a 9pt model. Honestly, based on those two games, I'm even thinking of ditching the 5++ bubble from my second-warlord-trait Canoness. It just didn't matter, I barely noticed. It was a blip on the radar in the whirlwind of blown up Sororitas and Tau.

well, i am suitably intrigued. both from you and Erjacks last posts. so what sacred rites did you take on and find valuable thusfar, and how do you employ your miracle dice? would you think to lean into that if you toss that other Warlord trait?

Bdrone wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I don't know if we really need higher durability, that's the thing. Power armor is fairly durable on a 9pt model. Honestly, based on those two games, I'm even thinking of ditching the 5++ bubble from my second-warlord-trait Canoness. It just didn't matter, I barely noticed. It was a blip on the radar in the whirlwind of blown up Sororitas and Tau.

well, i am suitably intrigued. both from you and Erjacks last posts. so what sacred rites did you take on and find valuable thusfar, and how do you employ your miracle dice? would you think to lean into that if you toss that other Warlord trait?

I literally just threw dice for my sacred rites, using the stratagem to reroll duplicates and in my Tau games the anti-psyker deny one I got once.

My miracle dice were saved if they were large, while the low ones were burned for Moment of Grace and for Divine Intervention. I didn't find many uses for the large ones but Damage is obviously a big one, and auto-hitting on Overwatch for 6s.

The first game I got Divine Guidance and the Hand of the Emperor, and both were super good. Divine Guidance army-wide with 127 sisters firing over 200 shots is a whole lotta -1 AP where it has no right to be.

The second game, I got Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr. Spirit of the Martyr literally affected my opponent's target priority after a dying Celestian meltagun nearly one-shotted his Zoot Suit in his own shooting phase - he would literally maneuver into sub-optimal positions just to be outside melta range before shooting.

Did you just say Repentia can one shot a knight? Care to explain that, because I want to run them!

Its very surreal seeing people who were pretty negative about the codex being more positive after actually playing some games.

I can't say the same, Sim-life. If any Codex had a lot riding on it, it was this one.

Optimism was everywhere, but after seeing people who didn't even know how shield of faith worked during the beta dex cycle, i wasn't confident with this book myself, and since im not able to test it, i still am in a wavering position.

on top of that, the miracle dice mechanic and other things within the book make this far more player-driven to find out where it really shines, like how some people have claimed the aura overlaps are "warmachine"-like. combining such a book in a sea of obvious "well this gives you this." books, combined with who knows how many people were riding on this book being good, is going to cause issue both ways.

where this book, like any will bear out, is in play. and over months. i want to see where this goes, even if during all this My own interest in the army has wavered, and my Ageless Dream may have come to an end. between this stuff, PA, and CA2019, things have definitely not gotten dull.

Lets see how the Sisters take it to the stage.

I have always been negative about the point of horde armies with gun line esque play styles, but I've said from the beginning I love the models, and this is what 40k models should be like.

Addendum: The new repentia is, well, odd aesthetically. It doesn't match the fluff in the least, and it seemingly goes against the idea of the repentia squad in the first place. They are stripped of all armor except a robe and a hood, and given a big sword, and told to die in combat. This looks more, necromundaish.

...yeah, i don't care for the new Repentia. that was one of my big breakers with this one. the limited edition new Mistress of Repetence was my favorite model of the limited edition box, but the multipart one is a solid ehh.

if they had done a thing with robes and hoods, id be more on board. the power armor interface plugs were not a thing i roll with either, adding to a number of models id have to doctor somewhat to enjoy.

a filing here, a removal of bling there, eventually a bits box of random cherubs and other stuff because my idea of sisters is more practically looking due to limited material than this current iteration by a decent margin sort of thing.

that said, Repentia were one of the winners of older units in the codex from what i saw. hit about the same, except now they have Zealot , benefit from every rule that can buff melee in the codex because of their keywords, and they got a FNP equiavlent (i think) plus a miracle dice when the unit busts. far better than they use to be.

oh yeah, and since they can use miracle dice, you can use it on their charges, if the other ways to reroll them aren't up your alley or you NEED that long bomb.

 vipoid wrote:
[qu
Only if you're completely disingenuous.

Doctrines and super-doctrines apply to all Marines.

Not all HQs will have a Warlord Trait.
Not all HQs will have a Relic.
HQs can never have the same Relic or Warlord Trait (so if, for example, you are basing your assessment of the Canoness on the Relic that allows her to have a 12" aura, how do you account for subsequent Canonesses who are unable to take that Relic?)
Additional Relics and/or Warlord Traits after the first cost CPs (yet this never seems to be included whenever a HQ is judged with Relics/Warlord Traits included)

So on your logic blood angel captains just suck. They are more like C or D category. Because they come into play only with traits and relics.

Good to know. Blood angel captains sucked from the get-go when BA codex arrived. Funny sucky lousy crappy unit like that appeared suddenly everywhere...

Maybe because it's dishonest as hell to rank stuff ignoring stuff they can have. That's just deliberately misleading people.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12".

... how?
It's bolters and meltaguns.
No special ammo, no mortal wounds, no double shooting. How is anyone stunned by this, from a sisters list of all things?

Quantity and endurance.

The Tau player killed something like 80 sisters over the course of our 2k game. At the end, I still had:

~20-30 bolters that were constantly in rapid fire (40-60 shots) because I could advance faster than they could withdraw.
~6 of my multimeltas that were constantly in melta range (hospitaller kept bringing them back) that could advance and shoot with no penalty faster than they could withdraw
10 Seraphim, in 2 squads of 5 (one with 4 hand flamers and one with 4 inferno pistols) that simply didn't register on my opponent's target list because they were so small.
~6-8 storm bolters constantly in rapid fire (24-32 shots) because I could advance faster than they could withdraw.
A smattering of my other special weapons - a melta BSS squad ended with 4 members, including 2 meltas and a combi-melta, and a couple of my backfield objective holder squads with heavy bolters were still kicking. I had a heavy flamer ret running around at the end as well, though not close enough to the hospitaller to return any friendos.
My characters were mostly alive (2 of my 3 canonesses died because I hurled them into melee like ballistic missiles, but the others stayed in the blob.)

The Tau were 80 sisters deep (2/3rds of my list) but because of our cheap, durable bodies, that was hardly a dent in my meaningful firepower. I also did clever tricks like hiding most of a Ret Squad out of LOS so that they'd blast them down to a couple members, and then my hospitaller could bring an MM back as they advanced again.

My list has 127 sororitas in it. Kill 80 or so and I've got nearly 50 left, and they're cheap enough that my special weapons are spread all over the place which makes targeting somewhat hard.

This is very interesting indeed. Something to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved...
If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-

Remember the faithful advance rule. Retributors can move, advance, and then fire their heavy weapons with no penalty.

I did forget this. This is very interesting now that you bring that up. I'll have to come back to this when I have little more time. Thank you.

tneva82 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
[qu
Only if you're completely disingenuous.

Doctrines and super-doctrines apply to all Marines.

Not all HQs will have a Warlord Trait.
Not all HQs will have a Relic.
HQs can never have the same Relic or Warlord Trait (so if, for example, you are basing your assessment of the Canoness on the Relic that allows her to have a 12" aura, how do you account for subsequent Canonesses who are unable to take that Relic?)
Additional Relics and/or Warlord Traits after the first cost CPs (yet this never seems to be included whenever a HQ is judged with Relics/Warlord Traits included)

So on your logic blood angel captains just suck. They are more like C or D category. Because they come into play only with traits and relics.

Good to know. Blood angel captains sucked from the get-go when BA codex arrived. Funny sucky lousy crappy unit like that appeared suddenly everywhere...

Maybe because it's dishonest as hell to rank stuff ignoring stuff they can have. That's just deliberately misleading people.

I don't think he's wrong TBH that you should look at a unit by itself, without relics, especially when the list mandates you taking several (due to a lack of HQ choices in the army) but yeah I agree you absolutely should look at relics and warlord traits for any power combos for your HQ units.

tneva82 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
[qu
Only if you're completely disingenuous.

Doctrines and super-doctrines apply to all Marines.

Not all HQs will have a Warlord Trait.
Not all HQs will have a Relic.
HQs can never have the same Relic or Warlord Trait (so if, for example, you are basing your assessment of the Canoness on the Relic that allows her to have a 12" aura, how do you account for subsequent Canonesses who are unable to take that Relic?)
Additional Relics and/or Warlord Traits after the first cost CPs (yet this never seems to be included whenever a HQ is judged with Relics/Warlord Traits included)

So on your logic blood angel captains just suck. They are more like C or D category. Because they come into play only with traits and relics.

Good to know. Blood angel captains sucked from the get-go when BA codex arrived. Funny sucky lousy crappy unit like that appeared suddenly everywhere...

Maybe because it's dishonest as hell to rank stuff ignoring stuff they can have. That's just deliberately misleading people.

SM Captain with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is a good melee model, you can take a list full of them and they are all equally terrifying. You just don't do that because it's expensive and tou have other options.

Lammia wrote:
SM Captain with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is a good melee model, you can take a list full of them and they are all equally terrifying. You just don't do that because it's expensive and tou have other options.

Not sure this is a good fight to get into - but if they are expensive and you have other options, they are likely not that good.

I know people tried to make 3 captains work - but the general consensus was no, it didn't. Because the Blood Angel captain relies on various things coming together to create a monster. A second just about works (since you can throw stratagems into him if the first dies early and take another reasonable relic), but you are paying too much for the added redundancy of the third.
Which isn't to say a captain is a bad model per se, but its not setting the world on fire without that combination. As you say - its expensive and you have other options.

Its Archon Envy - but if the Canoness was baseline 70 points, for reasons, she'd be much, much worse, even though her potential loadouts are the same.
For one model you might say an extra 25 points isn't *that much* - but 75 points when you take 3 (as you may do - special characters depending) would feel like agony.
One might be worth taking because of the added relic and trait - but by the time you get to number 3 its clearly a tax.

Its partly why I don't think Faith and Fury helped CSM that much. For most of the legions it just facilitated hero hammer - i.e. you can have 1 or 2 really tooled our characters who are going to blend anything they get into contact with. But two good characters can't typically carry a list or a faction. In conjunction with the CA changes though I think things will change.