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Salty? You misunderstand me. I'm bored to the point of apathy now. My response will be the same regardless - 'I don't care because I don't know anyone who plays the faction and I couldn't care less for the most Mary Sue of Mary Sues myself, so I'll never be buying them'.

Maybe no one is playing them, because they have, you know, kind of a bad rules, and from what people say this isn't just this edition, but other editions before it too?

What are you talking about? Try to keep up - we're discussing current releases and the current meta. Past editions have nothing to do with it.

I think that if GW rule writers botch the rules of an army, over and over again it very much has an impact on how the game for that faction looks like now. If GK are bottom tier for multiple editions, then there aren't going to be many people buying their models. Which means GW is not going to care to work on them, because "no one plays them". But to all people that do play them this ia a huge problem. Because instead of getting real updated, new models and good new rules, they are getting copy paste books, just so GW design team can get over with them fast, and start working on "real" armies that sell well.

Wasn't quite fast enough to auto-append there.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I've heard no rumours of new models for GK. The 'ton' of stuff I mentioned earlier were rules and a boost in power.

The marine meta wouldn't be complete without every snowflake chapter/sub-faction of marine getting the OP treatment now, would it?

Now will you still be as salty when the GK rules amendments still suck compared to everyone else, or will it be "oh well GK aren't codex marines"?

Salty? You misunderstand me. I'm bored to the point of apathy now. My response will be the same regardless - 'I don't care because I don't know anyone who plays the faction and I couldn't care less for the most Mary Sue of Mary Sues myself, so I'll never be buying them'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I've heard no rumours of new models for GK. The 'ton' of stuff I mentioned earlier were rules and a boost in power.

The marine meta wouldn't be complete without every snowflake chapter/sub-faction of marine getting the OP treatment now, would it?

Same OP treatment they have been getting for 3 editions in a row?

If so please spare my armies of this OP treatment.

What are you talking about? Try to keep up - we're discussing current releases and the current meta. Past editions have nothing to do with it.

Definition of apathy: "lack of interest, enthusiasm, or concern."

If you were truly apathetic your response to any marine release or news would be "meh" at best and move on without the need for a bitter retort.

You know, for an event called PSYCHIC awakening, it's had very little to do with psychers.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
GK might get some new strategems or whatnot.
What they need is a real overhaul and such a book cannot achieve this as we have seem from the books released so far.

Looking at BA it shows GW is clearly capable of putting all the things GK might need into PA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
The one thing that seems certain is that DA will get a full supplement treatment while GK and TS get scraps.

Why is it certain GK will get scraps? I don't deny the possibility, but do you have some outside source of info?

Because GK needs more flagelation.
probably.

I don't know.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
GK might get some new strategems or whatnot.
What they need is a real overhaul and such a book cannot achieve this as we have seem from the books released so far.

Looking at BA it shows GW is clearly capable of putting all the things GK might need into PA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
The one thing that seems certain is that DA will get a full supplement treatment while GK and TS get scraps.

Why is it certain GK will get scraps? I don't deny the possibility, but do you have some outside source of info?

It's not a certainty, just a trend. None of the other factions in the books thus far have had the levels of attention and detail that the core marine ranges have had. Dark Angels clearly need the same level of treatment to be on parity with the other marine books and it's expected they'll recevie it. Nothing to say Grey Knights will be sidelined, it's just expected they will be as the books have been very main-range-marine centric so far whilst other factions have had less attention.

A couple of users have mentioned that there are rumors about GK getting some major buffs in some way.
Where did you find them?
I've looked, but couldn't find any mention of them anywhere.

Darsath wrote:
You know, for an event called PSYCHIC awakening, it's had very little to do with psychers.

Marketing team I suspect, rather than people really focused on any story getting onto it before all that has been decided on.

Hrothgarmr wrote:
A couple of users have mentioned that there are rumors about GK getting some major buffs in some way.
Where did you find them?
I've looked, but couldn't find any mention of them anywhere.

GW said major buffs to GK multiple times. It is not certain what they think major means though. For example this CA, strikes droped a lot in points, at a glance it is awesome, until you notice that nemezis weapons that were free before now cost 1pts, so if you take 2 falchions, the drop isn't suddenly that big. Specially if you don't use power armoured models, as the drop on termintors is much smaller.

But GMs cost 20pts less and regular NDK are only 100pts, without weapons. Land raiders are cheaper. But the army still feels strange, there is no good stuff or stuff you want to use because it has interesting rules or good interactions. It is just more models and playing with hope that the opposing army Doesn't have the ability to kill stuff real fast. Which may even be true, If your main opponent is necron or sisters, it may actually work. But if your local meta has a lot of marines, that are ultra efficient and killing stuff, it just turns in to a grind where you probably lose at the end of turn 3, begining of 4, instead of the usual turn 2-3.

Karol wrote:

Hrothgarmr wrote:
A couple of users have mentioned that there are rumors about GK getting some major buffs in some way.
Where did you find them?
I've looked, but couldn't find any mention of them anywhere.

GW said major buffs to GK multiple times. It is not certain what they think major means though. For example this CA, strikes droped a lot in points, at a glance it is awesome, until you notice that nemezis weapons that were free before now cost 1pts, so if you take 2 falchions, the drop isn't suddenly that big. Specially if you don't use power armoured models, as the drop on termintors is much smaller.

But GMs cost 20pts less and regular NDK are only 100pts, without weapons. Land raiders are cheaper. But the army still feels strange, there is no good stuff or stuff you want to use because it has interesting rules or good interactions. It is just more models and playing with hope that the opposing army Doesn't have the ability to kill stuff real fast. Which may even be true, If your main opponent is necron or sisters, it may actually work. But if your local meta has a lot of marines, that are ultra efficient and killing stuff, it just turns in to a grind where you probably lose at the end of turn 3, begining of 4, instead of the usual turn 2-3.

I don't think GW has said that at all. Unless it was on FB and it got missed? Or do you mean the preview articles in CA where they mentioned GK?

Interceptors are down 4. Purgation down 5. Purifiers down 5. Terminators are down 7 and their Psycannons and Psilencers down 4. Dreadfists are down 15 & Dread CCws by 20.

GW did a little favor making Nemesis weapons cost 1 point and dropping units this much, because of sentences like this:

"For every fivemodels in the unit, one Interceptor may replace his Nemesis force sword and storm bolter with an item from the Special Weapons list."

Previously you paid the base cost PLUS the cost of the special even as you lost the Nemesis weapon. Now your purgations spit 24 DD3 and 4 D1 S4 AP0 for 89 points.

You can teleport in 3 gun-less NDKs for 375 or kick Daemonhammers onto them for 405.

If you pick up a lore and some properly costed stratagems you're dangerously close to a good army.

a_typical_hero wrote:
I can't imagine GW adding a non Primaris model at that point to a loyal SM faction, so I guess GK are out of luck.

Dark Angels could get a Primaris Azrael. I don't feel it is the right environment to bring the Lion. Not enough "drama" in the Psychic Awakening storyline so far.

Thousand Sons all have fairly recent models.

Really hard to tell who it is going to be.

If any primarch will come back in PA, it will be Sangunius. Why are the Tyrannids to intent on taking Baal? They want Primarch genetic material and Baal is where they can get it. Sangunius is one of the few loyalist primarchs we know the location of, even if it's just his corpse. We know where the Lion is but no one else does, and the IH might have one of ferrus's arms or head or something, but the others might as well not exist. It would be cool if Sanginius's body gets eaten and he comes back as a Tyranid organism. Or he could get resurrected at the last minute by some knife-ears. It would be interesting if he came back as a real psyker instead of the weak premonition ability he had before, it would give a meaning to the name psychic awakening.

Still, it doesn't look like the BA are on the defensive, they are eliminating the nids not swept away by the great rift.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't think GW has said that at all. Unless it was on FB and it got missed? Or do you mean the preview articles in CA where they mentioned GK?

Interceptors are down 4. Purgation down 5. Purifiers down 5. Terminators are down 7 and their Psycannons and Psilencers down 4. Dreadfists are down 15 & Dread CCws by 20.

GW did a little favor making Nemesis weapons cost 1 point and dropping units this much, because of sentences like this:

"For every fivemodels in the unit, one Interceptor may replace his Nemesis force sword and storm bolter with an item from the Special Weapons list."

Previously you paid the base cost PLUS the cost of the special even as you lost the Nemesis weapon. Now your purgations spit 24 DD3 and 4 D1 S4 AP0 for 89 points.

You can teleport in 3 gun-less NDKs for 375 or kick Daemonhammers onto them for 405.

If you pick up a lore and some properly costed stratagems you're dangerously close to a good army.

I have one unit of interceptors and it had only models with stormbolters, so I never had problems with paying for a nemezis the model doesn't have.
The changes help my termintors very little, same with paladins. It maybe buffs an army in power armour, but even if I had the money to buy a new GK army out of power armoured units, I wouldn't. I would just go out and buy normal marines. Unless GK plans to lower the price of GK boxs.
On top of it they just made both my dreads illegal to play, I think, so now I have 400pts off 2000pts. Am not going to be able to play right now.

The Newman wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Hard to think of where a new model could fit for 1ksons. Maybe a psychic dread? Thousand Son's problems are mostly the same as all Chaos Marines. They need a better trait, and then all chaos needs something to catch them up to the power of Doctrines and Super Doctrines. But Chaos hasn't gotten that so far. So my guess is Thousand Sons will get Warlord Traits, Doctrines, and Relics, but it won't be enough to let them be what they are supposed to be (Ie, Rubrics will still not be worth using as your core troops.)

If they got stuff more like they have in 30k rules, it'd be great. But then they'll be breaking the established pattern for Chaos so far.

This is incorrect. Chaos does not need caught up to the power of doctrines and super doctrines and neither does anyone else. The game is already too lethal, making it more lethal isn't going to help anything. Marine Codex 2.0 and friends need a full errata to bring them down to the level everyone else is at right now, not the other way around.

Yeah but we know that isn't going to happen. Best we can hope for is for others to get more special rules, including defensive boosts.

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah and I'm sure pigs fly any moment soon now.

At least you both acknowledged that I'm right.

What the game really needs is for statlines to be re-written for 8th ed. Most of our problems come from changing major game systems without changing statlines. But they won't do that, so the next best option is to layer tons of special rules on top. Its bloated, but it gets us there, and it means we can have differences between subfactions by using slightly different rules. I'd rather everyone have 2 part traits and doctrine equivalents than them all being crappy 1 part traits like we had earlier in 8th.

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't think GW has said that at all. Unless it was on FB and it got missed? Or do you mean the preview articles in CA where they mentioned GK?

Interceptors are down 4. Purgation down 5. Purifiers down 5. Terminators are down 7 and their Psycannons and Psilencers down 4. Dreadfists are down 15 & Dread CCws by 20.

GW did a little favor making Nemesis weapons cost 1 point and dropping units this much, because of sentences like this:

"For every fivemodels in the unit, one Interceptor may replace his Nemesis force sword and storm bolter with an item from the Special Weapons list."

Previously you paid the base cost PLUS the cost of the special even as you lost the Nemesis weapon. Now your purgations spit 24 DD3 and 4 D1 S4 AP0 for 89 points.

You can teleport in 3 gun-less NDKs for 375 or kick Daemonhammers onto them for 405.

If you pick up a lore and some properly costed stratagems you're dangerously close to a good army.

I have one unit of interceptors and it had only models with stormbolters, so I never had problems with paying for a nemezis the model doesn't have.
The changes help my termintors very little, same with paladins. It maybe buffs an army in power armour, but even if I had the money to buy a new GK army out of power armoured units, I wouldn't. I would just go out and buy normal marines. Unless GK plans to lower the price of GK boxs.
On top of it they just made both my dreads illegal to play, I think, so now I have 400pts off 2000pts. Am not going to be able to play right now.

we've known legends was coming for a looong time Karol, and we KNEW rifleman dreads where going to end up on legends. so this isn't something sudden.

Honestly from what you've said it sounds like you bought a used GK army after the 7th edition codex hit, and have pretty much only ever used that with no adjustments?

Karol also said he usually doesn't play in tournaments, so his Dreadnoughts should be perfectly fine. But I guess he'll answer that with the notion of having the worst gaming group imaginable consisting of TFG WAAC players exclusively.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Karol also said he usually doesn't play in tournaments, so his Dreadnoughts should be perfectly fine. But I guess he'll answer that with the notion of having the worst gaming group imaginable consisting of TFG WAAC players exclusively.

yeah despite not being a tourny player I assume he plays in a "toxic tourny enviroment"

I hope that the big reveal is the Dark Angels finally turn traitor instead of being all closeted about it, mainly because I want to see the salt from all the DA players who have denied it all these years

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
What are you talking about? Try to keep up - we're discussing current releases and the current meta. Past editions have nothing to do with it.

That your claim GK's are being treated with same OP treatment is just plain flat out lying wrong. GW has never been treating all marines with OP treatment. Not even in this edition. In case you haven't noticed GK's have been even in this edition pretty much the worst faction in the game.

Where's that OP treatment you claim? If you were correct GK's would be OP right now. After all this isn't past edition. This is NOW. Where GK's suck. They are so bad that even index orks felt sorry for them.

But it doesn't fit your narrative so you ignore all the evidence and splutter out more incorrect garbage.

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
What are you talking about? Try to keep up - we're discussing current releases and the current meta. Past editions have nothing to do with it.

That your claim GK's are being treated with same OP treatment is just plain flat out lying wrong. GW has never been treating all marines with OP treatment. Not even in this edition. In case you haven't noticed GK's have been even in this edition pretty much the worst faction in the game.

Where's that OP treatment you claim? If you were correct GK's would be OP right now. After all this isn't past edition. This is NOW. Where GK's suck. They are so bad that even index orks felt sorry for them.

But it doesn't fit your narrative so you ignore all the evidence and splutter out more incorrect garbage.

You might want to read my post again - in your eagerness to attack me it seems you’ve failed to comprehend what I actually said.

I have nowhere claimed that GK are currently OP - what I actually said is that GW were likely going to make them OP because GW loves all things Marines. Now calm yourself and stop sputtering incorrect garbage.

even with doctrines and a super doctrine Grey Knights wouldn't be all that great. their tool kit is just too limited

BrianDavion wrote:
even with doctrines and a super doctrine Grey Knights wouldn't be all that great. their tool kit is just too limited

This is exactly what people said about Marines until their recent performances.

E - and let’s not downplay that supplement level rules are a lot more than just ‘doctrines and super doctrines’. It’s also new psychic trees, new data sheets, data sheet adjustments, new stratagems, new relics, special issue wargear etc etc

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
even with doctrines and a super doctrine Grey Knights wouldn't be all that great. their tool kit is just too limited

This is exactly what people said about Marines until their recent performances.

How many Units does C:SM have, how many GK.
The toolbox on codex C:SM is quite a bit bigger imo. That said, depending on the super doctrine and or doctrines it is quite possibe for GK to get into the really problematic territory, HOWEVER, i 'd doubt that they reach IH levels.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
even with doctrines and a super doctrine Grey Knights wouldn't be all that great. their tool kit is just too limited

This is exactly what people said about Marines until their recent performances.

How many Units does C:SM have, how many GK.
The toolbox on codex C:SM is quite a bit bigger imo. That said, depending on the super doctrine and or doctrines it is quite possibe for GK to get into the really problematic territory, HOWEVER, i 'd doubt that they reach IH levels.

Units aren’t the only tools open to factions now. Stratagems, relics, special issue wargear and psychic powers are all tools and they are all extended with supplement level content.

I’ve heard that GK get ‘more love’ from PA because GW is well aware of their awful, almost meme worthy performance, 8th edition so far. My guess is that GW go way over the top because they love their Marines but we will see.

Grey Knights for example lack a good source of heavy ranged firepower which seems to be a requirement for a codex to do well

BrianDavion wrote:
Grey Knights for example lack a good source of heavy ranged firepower which seems to be a requirement for a codex to do well

Well, this is not their fighting doctrine.
It's more close and personal with storm bolters, power weapons, and psychic powers.

 wuestenfux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Grey Knights for example lack a good source of heavy ranged firepower which seems to be a requirement for a codex to do well

Well, this is not their fighting doctrine.
It's more close and personal with storm bolters, power weapons, and psychic powers.

right, essentially their entire army is "infantry with stormbolters and swords" there's just not much varity to do much else. which hurts them in an edition that so favors massed firepower at range

Well initial results with SOB are heartening so it isn't automatically hopeless.

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Grey Knights for example lack a good source of heavy ranged firepower which seems to be a requirement for a codex to do well

Well, this is not their fighting doctrine.
It's more close and personal with storm bolters, power weapons, and psychic powers.

right, essentially their entire army is "infantry with stormbolters and swords" there's just not much varity to do much else. which hurts them in an edition that so favors massed firepower at range

This is how it will be in a real war.
If an infantry battalion needs supporting fire power, it will make a request for a tank company.
Here its the same.
Just add a detachment from your favorite SM chapter.
I guess GK will hardly operate as a whole battalion (in our scale). Similar to Harlies and whatnot.

 wuestenfux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Grey Knights for example lack a good source of heavy ranged firepower which seems to be a requirement for a codex to do well

Well, this is not their fighting doctrine.
It's more close and personal with storm bolters, power weapons, and psychic powers.

right, essentially their entire army is "infantry with stormbolters and swords" there's just not much varity to do much else. which hurts them in an edition that so favors massed firepower at range

This is how it will be in a real war.
If an infantry battalion needs supporting fire power, it will make a request for a tank company.
Here its the same.
Just add a detachment from your favorite SM chapter.
I guess GK will hardly operate as a whole battalion (in our scale). Similar to Harlies and whatnot.

well yeah but being told "if you wanna be effective, soup" is disheartening. no matter your army