Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/04 12:58:47
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
To solve the issue with MC's and Walker's not being about to assault units up in ruins I propose giving them a new rule called "Ruin Wreckers". Monster, vehicles, and Walkers may charge, and declare a ruin as the target of their attacks in the fight phase. It is treated as a T6 model with a 4+ save for the purpose of these attacks. For every unsaved wound suffered by the Ruin, a unit inside takes a hit equal to half the strength, and AP of the attack rounded up. This wound is allocated by the attacker but must be assigned to non-character models if possible.
I think this solves the immersion breaking issue of monsters, vehicle, and walkers vs troops in ruins. Without totally removing the advantage of ruins from the troops. IE A Carnifex attacks a ruin at S12 4 attacks, - 3 AP and does 6 wounds. That player then assigns a unit inside to be the target, and they take 6, S6, -2ap hits as a result. So a tank could ram a ruin to shake troops out of it. A ork trukk could use a wreckin' ball as a wreckin' ball, and a Carnifex could shake the ruin like a soda can. Meanwhile units up inside the ruins can still shoot back in defense, and benefit from some protection of the rubble around them...at least the parts that aren't falling on their heads.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/04 13:25:46
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Deranged Necron Destroyer
|
I'd simply say that walkers can attack models on the first floor of ruins. Knights can attack models on any floor of ruins. Job done.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/05 04:37:13
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
IanVanCheese wrote:I'd simply say that walkers can attack models on the first floor of ruins. Knights can attack models on any floor of ruins. Job done.
Eh. Sorta. Assuming you mean the 1st floor of a ruin that isn't on the ground level, that could be 3" off the ground, or it could be 12" off the ground. The first makes sense. The second not so much. And if a given floor of the ruins is horizontally large enough, then the walker/monster might still be prevented from getting within 1" of the target unit horizontally because the floor physically extends more than 1" away from where the infantry unit is located. Automatically Appended Next Post: Wagguy80 wrote: To solve the issue with MC's and Walker's not being about to assault units up in ruins I propose giving them a new rule called "Ruin Wreckers". Monster, vehicles, and Walkers may charge, and declare a ruin as the target of their attacks in the fight phase. It is treated as a T6 model with a 4+ save for the purpose of these attacks. For every unsaved wound suffered by the Ruin, a unit inside takes a hit equal to half the strength, and AP of the attack rounded up.
I'm not generally a fan of resolving attacks just to resolve more attacks. Seems like a lot of dice rolling for what will often be strength 3 and 4 attacks.
This wound is allocated by the attacker but must be assigned to non-character models if possible.
Guessing you intend for this to mean the attacker can choose which unit receives the hits? If not, if feels weird that you can snipe sergeants and special weapons by punching through walls.
I know that non-infantry being unable to assault upper levels of ruins is an issue, but I'm not really sure what that sort of thing should look like. A carnifex looks pretty silly tip-toeing on the remnants of splintered floorboards, but making indirect attacks against ruin-occupants by attacking the ruins themselves feels odd and overly complicated.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/05 04:45:58
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/05 21:03:48
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
|
Model your walkers without bases and they can attack people on any floor so long as the models are within 1" of their 'hull'. You could just treat walkers as having no base for purposes of melee range.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/07 12:03:35
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
The problem with the other suggestions is if you suddenly allow MC's or Walkers to attack units they currently cannot within the rules you would then need to append their points costs as well.
I'm looking for something that works within the rules, while not drastically affecting balance, and maintaining immersion. There are some nasty CC units out there currently, and the one bastion for some units is being up in a ruin.
So can't strip them of that benefit without adjusting points according.
As for resolving attacks to resolve more attacks, it's a common theme in 8th edition. Example Orks shoot, then 6's generate more attacks.
So it's not ideal but I don't think it's too slowing on the game, nor have I come up with a better solution that doesn't just allow for more gamey nonsense.
Just looking more for immersion. As of right now the Trygon outside the ruins just stands there with it's claws like "Rawr I'm going to stand here while you hide from me."
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/08 04:03:31
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
AnomanderRake wrote:Model your walkers without bases and they can attack people on any floor so long as the models are within 1" of their 'hull'. You could just treat walkers as having no base for purposes of melee range.
That's probably the best/simplest solution. You still get a bit of weirdness with wide ruins where splintered floorboard prevent a dreadnaught from punching some guys because the hull of the dread can't get within an inch of them, but it will work out in a lot of scenarios. Automatically Appended Next Post: Wagguy80 wrote:The problem with the other suggestions is if you suddenly allow MC's or Walkers to attack units they currently cannot within the rules you would then need to append their points costs as well.
I'm looking for something that works within the rules, while not drastically affecting balance, and maintaining immersion. There are some nasty CC units out there currently, and the one bastion for some units is being up in a ruin.
So can't strip them of that benefit without adjusting points according.
Eh. I don't get the feeling that hiding up in ruins is a design decision that GW weighs heavily (if at all) when setting the points values of non-infantry. I get the impression it's more of a response to all the rhinos perched precariously on rooftops in 7th edition. Like, I doubt that 20 points of the soul grinder's cost is the result of the kit (last time I checked) not coming with a base thus allowing it to melee at guys in ruins.
Plus the nastiest of those "nasty cc units" generally have the infantry or fly keywords or are knights who can assault things in ruins for a command point.
Plus plus Rake's suggestion would still allow you to avoid melee by hiding in ruins; you'd just have to be on ruins that were physically tall enough to keep you more than 1" from the top of a monster/walker instead of just keeping you above their base. So the trygon is probably still able to poke you unless you're using some absurdly tall terrain, but dreads might have trouble reaching you on the third story of most ruins.
As for resolving attacks to resolve more attacks, it's a common theme in 8th edition. Example Orks shoot, then 6's generate more attacks.
So it's not ideal but I don't think it's too slowing on the game, nor have I come up with a better solution that doesn't just allow for more gamey nonsense.
Just looking more for immersion. As of right now the Trygon outside the ruins just stands there with it's claws like "Rawr I'm going to stand here while you hide from me."
Ork shooting is a good example of a resolution mechanic that takes an annoying amount of time to resolve. I think Rake's suggestion would avoid any "gamey nonsense" including suddenly gaining the ability to snipe special weapons with a carnifex when the enemy enters ruins. Again, the trygon is a great example of an MC that would benefit from measuring from the whole model instead of its base.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/08 04:10:59
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/09 10:19:09
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
This could be streamlined by simply allowing a monster/walker to make a "ruin wrecker" attack, which would basically ignore vertical distances, and allow them to make half their attacks at half their strength and AP, rounding up.
a bit simpler than getting wounds through a T6 4+ and then having to wound the guys in cover. It would also prevent walkers from attacking large ruins and hurting models too distant from themselves.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/11 10:03:01
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
IMO models should have an upwards reach of 2" from their head. I can imagine a monster or vehicle smashing through a ruin from below, causing people to fall and what have you and then grabbing and killing them. It would also prevent the silliness of units being unchargable by Infantry if they take up all the space on the second story of a ruin.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/11 11:35:52
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
vict0988 wrote:IMO models should have an upwards reach of 2" from their head. I can imagine a monster or vehicle smashing through a ruin from below, causing people to fall and what have you and then grabbing and killing them. It would also prevent the silliness of units being unchargable by Infantry if they take up all the space on the second story of a ruin.
Issue with this is modelling for advantage. a Knight can probably get taller by straightening the legs. A dreadnaught on a scenic base will be taller than one on a normal base. Plus most infantry are less than 2" tall anyway. Could you punch someone stood on top of a bus from the ground?
staying out of reach of hordes of gribblies who want to eat you is a legitimate option, and very cinematic. However, I would also expect them to be able to attack a bit as they climb up the walls and try to grab the enemy - not as effectively though. One attack each could be an option.
The problem is the lack of a standard for height of models and ruins. without that, you can't simply state 2" higher than a model or the first floor of ruins.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/11 16:04:34
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
some bloke wrote: vict0988 wrote:IMO models should have an upwards reach of 2" from their head. I can imagine a monster or vehicle smashing through a ruin from below, causing people to fall and what have you and then grabbing and killing them. It would also prevent the silliness of units being unchargable by Infantry if they take up all the space on the second story of a ruin.
Issue with this is modelling for advantage. a Knight can probably get taller by straightening the legs. A dreadnaught on a scenic base will be taller than one on a normal base. Plus most infantry are less than 2" tall anyway. Could you punch someone stood on top of a bus from the ground?
staying out of reach of hordes of gribblies who want to eat you is a legitimate option, and very cinematic. However, I would also expect them to be able to attack a bit as they climb up the walls and try to grab the enemy - not as effectively though. One attack each could be an option.
The problem is the lack of a standard for height of models and ruins. without that, you can't simply state 2" higher than a model or the first floor of ruins.
Same issue exists more or less with TLOS, I don't see a problem. If you allow your opponent to play with a converted model then that's on you. I don't think shooting units need benefits against melee beyond having more range. One thing you could say is that you ignore models that aren't within 1" except during the Fight phase so you can move away without falling back and you can still shoot but you can get hit.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 16:41:15
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Rampagin' Boarboy
|
How about monsters and walkers are given a "size category".
Medium is for regular dreadnoughts, carnifexes, sentinels, deff dreads, etc, and can attack models on the ground floor and first floor of a ruin.
Large is trygons, redemptors, helverins, morkanauts, etc. They can attack on ground, first and second floors.
Very large is full size knights, stompas, bio titans, etc and can attack on every floor (with some discussion with your opponent if there's something ridiculous like a 40-floor building)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 23:47:29
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Afrodactyl wrote:How about monsters and walkers are given a "size category".
Medium is for regular dreadnoughts, carnifexes, sentinels, deff dreads, etc, and can attack models on the ground floor and first floor of a ruin.
Large is trygons, redemptors, helverins, morkanauts, etc. They can attack on ground, first and second floors.
Very large is full size knights, stompas, bio titans, etc and can attack on every floor (with some discussion with your opponent if there's something ridiculous like a 40-floor building)
Not opposed to this, but you'd have to rework terrain rules to clarify what constitutes a "first floor." Some of the ruins around have a first floor 3" off the ground. Others have a first floor 6" off the ground. Others have slopes that rise up at least 3" from ground level but don't have a clear "cut off" for where the first floor begins and the ground level ends. Perhaps it would be cleaner to just give each size category an effective vertical reach? So a carnifex might be allowed to attack things less than 6" off the ground so long as they're within 1" vertically. A trygon might be allowed to attack things less than 12" off the ground instead.
|
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/03 12:55:50
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
Perhaps my first idea was over complicated. Second idea...
Stratagem: Ruin Wreckers 1cp
Select a Monster or Walker unit from your army with a starting wounds value of at least 8 wounds. In the shooting phase the model gains the following weapon profile but cannot fire any other weapons in it's shooting phase this turn.
Ruin Wrecker Range - 3" Type - Assault X S - User AP - D3 Damage - D3
X is equal to the attack characteristic of the unit. This weapon can only target units wholly within a Ruin, but can target units not visable to the firing model. When attacking with this weapon use the model WS, and this attack hits regardless of any negative modifiers.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/03 12:58:26
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/03 13:22:03
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I like the "Ruin Wreckers" concept. A simple rule that allows any walker to potentially deal damage to units within a ruin. I just think that the rules, as presented, don't do a great job of that. Here's my idea;
Add the following rule to the some weapons (Gulliman's flaming sword, Knight's chainsword, all of a Wraithknight's attacks, etc.):
"This unit can fight units within 4" during any Fight phase with this weapon, even if it did not charge or is not within 1" of an enemy unit. It may not pile in or consolidate when fighting this way, and ignores vertical distance when doing so."
These units can now fight through walls and strike units on top of ruins or other places where such models are normally considered to be "safe" from close combat.
|
Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/04 04:31:33
Subject: Ruin wreckers rule...
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
It's easier to just change the terrain rules to function like apoc. A unit that is within 3" of a terrain feature at the end of their movement can choose to occupy the terrain. When the unit occupies terrain move all the models into the terrain feature. A unit occupying terrain makes all measurements to and from the terrain feature. Anyone that can see the terrain can see the unit. The unit as a whole is treated as the terrain. You can still shoot from the terrain even if enemy units are within 1" of the terrain. Then, when someone wants to charge/fight the unit they can just charge the building and be in a fight with the buildings occupants. You don't have to worry about individual models being able to see around windows or whatever. The whole unit gains the benefits of the terrain while also getting to act. And units that want to shoot/fights the unit can do so by treating the terrain feature as a building they are laying siege to instead of trying to take pot shots at individual models. All the confusing and broken rules of charging up floors and crap just goes away.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/04 04:34:41
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
|
|
 |
 |
|