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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Are these still a thing? I thought they hadn't featured since 2nd or 3rd Ed? Are they in recent fluff/lore?


Yes, they are an important part of Kryptman's gambit. They are also mentioned in the latest GSC codex (including a six-limbed gargant full of Genestealers).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/28 19:30:50


 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

Ork "warp shenanigans" are fueled by "crowd mentality". As mentioned, Nids have something similar as well. But to do the things Orkz do requires that Orky mindset. You can't just say "I believe red is faster" and make it work. You actually HAVE to believe it. And not just you, but every other Ork in the galaxy. And that's a lot of Orkz, since they're the most numerous species in the galaxy.

Depending on the source, the Hive Mind is either the collective consciousness of all Nids, or a separate entity. In the former case, individual Nids don't really have the sapience required to fuel a "crowd mentality" power like the Waagh (most of them require a Synapse creature nearby to not go "feral"). In the latter, even a powerful consciousness like the Hive Mind or Big E is still a single consciousness and still wouldn't be able to create a "crowd mentality" effect.

As mentioned, the Nids who survived Octarius are bigger than normal now, so they DID get something. But it's still a matter of the Nids possessing many of the racial advantages of the Orkz already. And, bear in mind, that Warbosses and other gigantic Orkz (like the Beast) are that way because of both the Waagh AND surviving tons of fights. Nids are regularly recycled, so the Ork "get bigger" genome wouldn't help them all top much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/28 19:31:52


 
   
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





England

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Tyran wrote:
roboemperor wrote:Genestealer-Ork hybrids are a thing, even if the Orks are very good at hunting them down.

Are these still a thing? I thought they hadn't featured since 2nd or 3rd Ed? Are they in recent fluff/lore?


They haven’t been mentioned recently AFAIK, but I don’t think they’ve been specifically retconned either.

See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason. 
   
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

roboemperor wrote:


Could you do me a huge favor and tell me about Aeros in those books? I don't have it and I need to know, did the Tyranids
a. Attempt to consume the gas giant before it got blown up. or
b. Just ate the space colonies surrounding the gas giant.

I'm getting mixed reports online. One source says they consumed it and now it's a dead world. Another source says nothing about whether they tried to nom it or not but it was definitely blown up and destroyed most of the fleet.

Sorry I have Devastation of Baal, not Shield of Baal.
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut






Based on silhouettes and such, what class are these ships escorting the Rock likely to be? Cruisers?
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





How would you guys see the Horus Heresy starting had Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard been informed early in advance before reaching Istvan V that the Iron Warriors, The Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers have all turned traitor as well?
   
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
How would you guys see the Horus Heresy starting had Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard been informed early in advance before reaching Istvan V that the Iron Warriors, The Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers have all turned traitor as well?


Put simply, Horus can’t win if he has to face an even number or loyalists marines. Presumably the would be shattered legions would break warp early and regroup at Terra. It took several years for Horus to reach Terra even with a legionare advantage. Worst case for the loyalist, you double the defenders on Terra itself meaning the siege would be fairly one sided. The Imperial Fists would also be far more strengthened since they wouldn’t take the losses at Phall. Considering that the initial 4 traitor legion took between 25-33% losses at Istvaan III, Horus would be behind the 8 ball.

Calth would not happen either since a warning could be sent to Ultramar. There’s also a good chance of one of those legions reinforcing the 500 worlds lessening the losses from the Word Bearers and World Eaters bash brothers party.

The Blood Angles and Thousand Sons are still screwed since they’re not linked to the rest of events at the start. There’s also little change for the white scars in this scenario also.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





Also did Perturabo's ability to see the Eye of Terror give him any advantages whatsoever? It would be weird for him to bw given an ability that only served to make him paranoid crazy about seeing something everyone else will deny seeing.
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





Where is this quote by Admiral Spire from?


''We are defenders of Humanity,

We are the Emperor's blazing sword

and Imperium's crushing fist!

Hundreds of billions of hands are ready to die

For our mission in the cold, unforgiving space.

We are the Imperial Navy!''

I would like to know the source to this quote.
   
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

From one of the two BFG:A games, as he only appears in them.
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





How large is an Imperial Fist regiment? I read that upon reunification with the Emperor and his Legion, Dorn left some second in command on Inwit to raise 30 regiments of Imperial Fists.

Taking in the legion size of 100000 Astartes and dividing that by 30 gives a little bit over 3000 as an absolute maximum.
   
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Wicked Canoptek Wraith




Are there any stories where Genestealer Cults aren't nommed by Tyranids but instead work alongside each other?

Are there any Genestealers Cultists with hair?

Do Genestealer Cultists die of old age?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 20:10:02


 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

roboemperor wrote:
Are there any stories where Genestealer Cults aren't nommed by Tyranids but instead work alongside each other?

The Tyranids will usually ignore the cultists until the local defenders are eliminated, before turning on them. Meanwhile the cultists are eagerly trying to help their gods. So in a way they work alongside each other, if only briefly.

However there is some newer fluff in the current codex where in at least one case, for some reason the tyranids have not eaten the cult following the consumption of a world, and instead the cultists have boarded cargo haulers and followed the tyranids back into space to fly alongside the hive fleet, and invade other worlds with them.

There's also the case of hive fleet Tiamat.
Unlike the usual nomadic hive fleets, Tiamat has settled on a planet, on which they appear to be building some kind of immense fleshy structure. They defend the planet so ferociously that the imperium has just left them to it, but the Tyranids apparently allow genestealer cultists to visit.
Cultists from nearby worlds undergo pilgrimages to the planet, where any who touch the structure come under its control, and tell the others to become missionaries and spread the creed of Tiamat far and wide.

roboemperor wrote:

Are there any Genestealers Cultists with hair?

Genestealer DNA and hair is like oil and water. Does not mix.
More seriously though, large portions of a cult are actually just mind controlled but otherwise genetically normal humans. Or perhaps not even mind controlled but just caught up in revolutionary fervour against their oppressive government. So those brood brothers could have hair.

roboemperor wrote:

Do Genestealer Cultists die of old age?

Genestealers themselves can survive for centuries. It's how they drift around on space hulks, they can hibernate for hundreds of years if they have to.
However I haven't read anything saying how much of that longevity gets passed along to hybrids.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It should be noted that Tyranids use the cult just like an extension of their own broods. They don't so much "turn" on a cult as they simply consume and render the bodies of its broods down when they are no longer needed.

Of course those in the cult not under the direct mind control of the Hive Mind might well end up deciding that they don't actually want to die and could turn on the Tyranids. Of course this would leave them without a leadership structure and likely fragmented as their former cult leaders would seek to weaken their own forces before being devoured (so as to best ensure any uprising is ineffective - remembering that this happens after the system is taken over).


Preserving cults is a valid move for the Tyranids. Cults can infest worlds long before the main hive. They can cause confusion and fear; disrupt defence systems etc... There's a lot of benefits to keeping a cult or its leadership alive to spread the cult to other worlds.

There's even Cults that have risen up and not attracted a Hive fleet. The Cult simply continuing to grow and grow covering more and more systems.

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Does anything spawn rippers other than Norn Queens and the Parasite from Mordrax?

Do Tervigons spawn gaunts from biomass they consume, or do they just carry a bunch of fetal gaunts inside it, grow them, and unleash them and can run out of gaunts? So basically, are they factories or storage units?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/07 13:18:57


 
   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






That in itself isn’t especially clear

Hormagaunts are noted as being able to reproduce independently of a Hive Fleet. Indeed, eggs left behind once a Hive Fleet has been driven off continue to cause problems for years to come.

Whether there’s any potential for those to grow into other things is unclear. There’s also the question as to whether Rippers are indeed a separate species, or simply juvenile versions of regular weapon beasts.

Tervigons? If memory serves, the Gaunts within are already fully grown, being held in biostasis until awakened.

Given they’re vanguard beasts, it seems possible they can grow new Gaunts - but it’s hard to see them lasting long enough for such a contingency to be necessary?

   
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Mexico

A few gants growing wings and escaping enclosure into the wild led to a planet being overwhelmed and Tyranid spores can turn flora into Tyranid incubators.

Tyranids have a lot of reproductive methods.
   
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 Tyran wrote:
Tyranids have a lot of reproductive methods.


See, I want to know about all of these methods. Because the research I found simply says Norn-Queen or bust. Like this one.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Gorgon
"the Tyranids no longer possessed any reproductive capacity on Kel'shan save for a single Dominatrix and a group of already-battered Tervigons."

Dominatrices has Norn-Queens in it.

So we have Gaunts reproducing by itself, Rippers metamorphing into anything (unknown if anything spawns Rippers), Norn-Queens mass producing Tyranids, and that's it.

Do you have a source on that Gaunt growing wings and escaping in the wild? I want to read more about it!
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

roboemperor wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Tyranids have a lot of reproductive methods.


See, I want to know about all of these methods. Because the research I found simply says Norn-Queen or bust. Like this one.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Gorgon
"the Tyranids no longer possessed any reproductive capacity on Kel'shan save for a single Dominatrix and a group of already-battered Tervigons."

Dominatrices has Norn-Queens in it.

So we have Gaunts reproducing by itself, Rippers metamorphing into anything (unknown if anything spawns Rippers), Norn-Queens mass producing Tyranids, and that's it.

Do you have a source on that Gaunt growing wings and escaping in the wild? I want to read more about it!


For that you're after Imperial Armour Volume 4: The Anphelion Project.
The imperium captures a bunch of lesser tyranids, like gaunts, and takes them to a remote research outpost on a jungle world. There they put them into large pens for study.
The tyranids respond to this confinement by starting to grow wings. By the time the research outpost spots this, it's too late. The tyranids break out and overrun the outpost.

The rescue team shows up some time later, only to find that the tyranids have spawned an army containing everything from hive tyrants to bio-titans.
   
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Arson Fire wrote:
For that you're after Imperial Armour Volume 4: The Anphelion Project.
The imperium captures a bunch of lesser tyranids, like gaunts, and takes them to a remote research outpost on a jungle world. There they put them into large pens for study.
The tyranids respond to this confinement by starting to grow wings. By the time the research outpost spots this, it's too late. The tyranids break out and overrun the outpost.

The rescue team shows up some time later, only to find that the tyranids have spawned an army containing everything from hive tyrants to bio-titans.


Amazing! Thanks!

So from what I can gather, Gaunts evolved wings, flew somewhere, evolved ways to reproduce, and then annihilated the planet.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/07 21:31:34


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

From what I recall rippers contain within them the genes of the gaunt strains and can evolve into gaunts when fed sufficient food. I believe they can also spawn in pools.


Norn Queens are the only creatures capable of creating totally new genetic code sequences within the Swarm. They can create totally new life forms as well as birth the greater and bigger creatures and higher tier monsters.

Meanwhile many other strains can reproduce themselves, even if it means they remain in a fairly feral state (eg hormagaunts if they reproduce more of themselves are just producing more gaunts with no synapse creature to help lead them).

Genestealers are famous for reproducing themselves by using humans as hosts. Even one can start off a Genestealer Cult. Though this infiltration breeding takes something like 4 generations to produce purestrain genestealers. All leading up to that are mutations that get part way and then mutate a bit; ending up trapped part way.


With tergivons don't forget that a termagaunt held in a state of non-birth stasis might be tiny within the creature. Perhaps only a tiny egg that the tervigon can gestate in a very short span of time. So food consumed might well allow it to gestate and produce "more" even though they have a finite number within them. Then again they might have a finite carrying capacity, but be able to create more base eggs for gestation as well.

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 Overread wrote:
From what I recall rippers contain within them the genes of the gaunt strains and can evolve into gaunts when fed sufficient food. I believe they can also spawn in pools.


Rippers can turn into Hive Tyrants as well.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





How many human worlds were left unconquered when Horus Heresy started?
   
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

Unknown, we don't even know the actual size of the IoM.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





roboemperor wrote:

See, I want to know about all of these methods. Because the research I found simply says Norn-Queen or bust. Like this one.


From 8th edition:

Spoiler:
"THE GHORALA SWARM
In their search, a handful of Leviathan’s scout ships happened across the world of Ghorala, a planet rich in biomass and base to Skarfang, Pirate-Warboss of the dreaded Skar Fleet. This mighty, if ramshackle, armada fell upon the bio-ships before they could react. The Tyranid fleet was all but destroyed under Skarfang’s guns. However, amidst the carnage, a single bio-ship broke through the Ork blockade, pouncing on the planet as a starving man might snatch at a scrap of bread. Alien blood and viscera spilt into the vacuum of space, but in its death throes the bio-ship delivered several broods of Tyranids to the world’s surface. Skarfang grew glum as he realised the battle was over, and he resolved to join the fight on Octaria, as the few Tyranids that had made planetfall were soon stomped out.

THE SWARM SURVIVES
For the first time since the Tyranids had invaded the Octarius Sector, they found themselves embroiled in a war where they were vastly outnumbered by their prey. Skarfang’s horde was mighty, and somehow, the Tyranids sensed that a war of attrition would only end in their demise.
In response, the Ghorala swarm adapted in order to survive. At first, the Tyranids stalked and preyed upon isolated Ork patrols, but the greenskins soon took to scouring the landscape in mobs too large for the fledgling swarm to face. Forced to abandon their guerrilla war, the Tyranids adopted an altogether more cunning strategy and engaged the Orks in the open. The Tyranids attacked without thought of survival, every action aimed at maximising the carnage. Despite the Tyranids’ frenzied attacks, the Orks’ superior numbers gave them the advantage in these brutal skirmishes. Whenever the Tyranids were on the verge of being overrun, they would, in eerie unison, switch from hyperactive slaughter to hasty retreat. The Tyranids lurked in nearby cavern complexes or else burrowed beneath the soil to shelter from pursuant search parties. In the dead of night, synapse creatures re-mustered the scattered swarms to the corpse-choked battlefield. There, the Tyranids fed on Ork cadavers and Tyranid carcasses alike, before returning to digestion pools secreted in the planet’s rocky mesas. Slowly but surely, the Tyranids’ numbers started to grow.

SKARFANG’S FURY
As the Tyranid forces swelled, they changed their methodology yet again, growing more aggressive and seeking out ever larger concentrations of Orks. Though the Tyranids’ reward for their victories was ever-increasing masses of bio-resources, the increased violence soon attracted the bored Skarfang to the surface to join the fray. Wherever Skarfang’s guttural war cries were heard, the Orks attacked with renewed vigour. Even when the Tyranids looked to be on the cusp of victory, the Warboss was able to turn the tide, bellowing blood-curdling threats that encouraged his Boyz to get stuck back in. The Tyranids were being pushed back by the resurgent Ork front; slowly the swarm was being trampled to death. Despite the Tyranids’ earlier success, there was little chance that they could face a united Ork force of such magnitude and survive. Whilst Skarfang lived, the Ghorala swarm was doomed.

DIVIDE AND CONSUME
In response, the Tyranids created Lictors with the express purpose of eliminating the Ork Warboss. Within days, the Lictors had tracked their eminent quarry, but Skarfang’s packs of squig hounds foiled all attempts to get close enough to assassinate their target. Although eternally patient, lying in wait for a chance to strike down their target was a luxury the starving swarm could ill afford. So instead, they created an opportunity.
Following pheromone trails, a scuttling tide of Hormagaunts was thrown at the Ork lines. As the Orks roused to man their rusty barricades, Tyranid Warriors willed the scuttling masses to withdraw. Skarfang’s frustration rose to infuriation as the Tyranids repeated these feints, approaching from different directions to within an arm’s length, then withdrawing before the Orks could retaliate. On the tenth such retreat, Skarfang’s temper could take no more. With a roar, the Warboss ordered his mobs to pursue the retreating swarms. Soon, black smoke was belching skywards as Battlewagons and Trukks rumbled after the swarm. The Tyranids had succeeded in goading the Warboss, separating him from the bulk of his forces and luring him into an ambush.
The Tyranids had spawned broods of Venomthropes to blanket the greenskins in a thick, toxic fog. As the Orks pursued their quarry, they rode headlong into the sudden, blinding mist. The entire convoy ground to a halt as vehicles skidded into rocky outcrops or else lost control and ploughed into each other. Coughing and hacking, those Orks that hadn’t choked on their own blood pulled themselves from the wreckage. Skarfang himself stumbled across the battlefield and happened across the tentacled beasts responsible for creating the noxious cloud. As he vented his anger on the venomous creatures, the fog receded and the eviscerated corpses of Orks surrounded the Warboss. Lictors had stalked through the blinding cloud and despatched the unwary greenskins one at a time until only Skarfang remained. The Lictors closed on their true quarry, surrounding the Warboss in deathly silence. Revving his chainblade into life, Skarfang charged the nearest with a roar of defiance. He managed two steps before a dozen mantis-like claws pierced his form and tore him asunder.
With Skarfang dead, it was not long before vying Ork bosses started fighting amongst
themselves to fill the power vacuum. The Orks were soon divided, and the disparate bands became easy prey to the united Tyranid swarm. Each was isolated and destroyed in quick succession, and within days, the Orks on Ghorala had been slaughtered like cattle. The Tyranids gorged themselves on their flesh.

THE SWARM REBORN
From the digested remains of Ghorala, the swarm created new bio-ships and set forth to rejoin the hive fleet at Octaria, the biomass it had consumed destined to fuel the next phase of planetary invasion."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/10 22:41:01


Tyranid fanboy.

Been around since 3rd edition. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





That raises more questions than it answers....

Originally a bio ship was birthed by a hive ship, which makes sense given how massive they are.

It's all well and good to say 'the swarm created new bio ships' but how exactly can they do that?

There's nothing large enough to birth one, they don't assemble them out of bits and they can't just emerge from a digestion pool (which would have to be kilometres in length anyway).

That sounds like a lazy 'and they emerged victorious and did the thing that allowed them to leave, and they did'.


   
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Auckland, NZ

Hellebore wrote:
That raises more questions than it answers....

Originally a bio ship was birthed by a hive ship, which makes sense given how massive they are.

It's all well and good to say 'the swarm created new bio ships' but how exactly can they do that?

There's nothing large enough to birth one, they don't assemble them out of bits and they can't just emerge from a digestion pool (which would have to be kilometres in length anyway).

That sounds like a lazy 'and they emerged victorious and did the thing that allowed them to leave, and they did'.


Presumably they grow. I don't see why a newly spawned hive ship has to be at its full size.
   
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Arson Fire wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
That raises more questions than it answers....

Originally a bio ship was birthed by a hive ship, which makes sense given how massive they are.

It's all well and good to say 'the swarm created new bio ships' but how exactly can they do that?

There's nothing large enough to birth one, they don't assemble them out of bits and they can't just emerge from a digestion pool (which would have to be kilometres in length anyway).

That sounds like a lazy 'and they emerged victorious and did the thing that allowed them to leave, and they did'.


Presumably they grow. I don't see why a newly spawned hive ship has to be at its full size.


It doesn't. The BFG armada fleet list describes their fleets as being composed of immature hive ships, escort drones, kraken drones etc.

But even the smallest escort in 40k is over a kilometre in length and they are born right out of hive ships, which can be anywhere from battleship size to Phalanx fortress sized:

BFG armada pg 80 wrote:
Hive ships
These void-swimming behemoths act as primary nodes for the Hive Mind and direct the activity of the entire swarm. Hive ships function as living mother ships, bio-factory vessels breeding and hatching endless swarms of Tyranids to pursue prey across void and planet alike. Though most swarms will typically contain more than one hive ship, in some circles it is believed that there is still a single ship that maintains central control of the entire collective and acts to coordinate the assault, though this cannot be confirmed. There are also unsubstantiated reports that there are a very small number of hive ships in every swarm that are much more massive than the rest. Dwarfing even great battleships, these immeasurably vast
creatures arrive very late in the process of planetary assimilation and are believed to be those responsible for the method by which even the atmosphere and oceans are consumed from orbit, as the final stage of the world’s consumption by the hive fleet. Though such a gargantuan organism would explain how once lush and fertile worlds are left barren, airless and sterile, there are as of yet no recorded sightings of such a monstrous creature.

Kraken, Cruisers and Droneships
These bio-ships range in size from comparable to the escorts of other races to massive ships nearly the equal in size of the hive ships they accompany. Ever evolving, some of these creatures of the void are called Kraken, named after the hive fleet in which they first appeared, identified as specialized biological entities which accompany hive ships in a swarm and defeat each new foe they encounter. Hive ships are known to respond to new threats by birthing more of these Kraken to overwhelm the defences of any sentient race or hapless world they encounter.


No land based tyranid is large enough to birth an escort sized space ship. the biggest tyranid bioforms we know of are their biotitans, which are in the 10s of metres range. Unless we're expected to believe a tervigon-heirophant hybrid birthed a space ship that was only at most 30 metres long...



   
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Auckland, NZ

Sorry, but I still don't see how this isn't easily explained by the ships starting very small. Even if they're kilometers in length at full size.
I mean you could have a larval hive ship spawned that's the size of a termagant, and that just lives in a brood nest until it's grown enough to start flying.

For that matter, we don't know how just how large the womb caverns in brood nests can get. The brood nests we used to have models for were small ones that just produced gaunts. But maybe there are also giant ones for producing larger creatures.
Hive fleet Tiamat shows the tyranids are quite capable of creating mega-structures the size of continents, so a nest a kilometer or two in length doesn't seem like such a stretch in comparison.

While it's not something GW has elaborated on much, it's pretty easy to come up with explanations.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/05/11 03:13:49


 
   
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We definitely can come up with our own explanations, but they're just that.

I mean I could go back to the original story any say 'the bio ship crashlanded and remained in a dying state until the nids could heal it up by bringing back biomass. It could then take off/birth a new one for them to escape.'

But that's not what the story describes, hence my issue.

It's been inferred that bioships are not simple to make and although rippers can represent the larval stages of a range of bioforms, there's no evidence than tyranids have all the different strains in their DNA like orks do, so they produce any type of nid.

Certainly if tyranids can reproduce space ships via rippers, there would be a lot more space ships than is currently depicted. The hive ship birthing whole other ships is part of the limitation on tyranids.

I don't think it's a good direction to make everything capable of becoming everything else or producing whatever they want.

   
 
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