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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Seems that the Imperium doesn't take quite too well to Abhumans and was wondering if there was any specific reason why?
   
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United Kingdom

Religiously they're seen as less than human, but can redeem themselves in the Emperor's eyes by martyring themselves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:

In The Beast series, the Arbite character has no issues with Abhumans (longshanks in this case), but the Black Templars start killing every one they see - until they are stopped by the Imperial Fists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/16 15:36:23


 
   
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 Psionara wrote:
Seems that the Imperium doesn't take quite too well to Abhumans and was wondering if there was any specific reason why?


They're an affront to the purity of the human form, but are (mostly) tolerated because the empire can't function without them.
   
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The out-of-universe reason is to make it clear that the Imperium is an intolerant, hyper-fascist state – it's one of a number of similar tropes that make it clear that the Imperium is not a good place to be. In the words of the blurb: 'It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.'

In-universe, the alien, heretic and mutant are the trifecta of bogeymen to most Imperials. Mutation is, to most Imperial citizens, seen as a symptom of moral failing; much as disease was viewed in mediaeval times.

Since abhumans are stable, they're not as bad as 'proper' mutants; but still open to suspicion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/16 15:45:23


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 Apologist wrote:
The out-of-universe reason is to make it clear that the Imperium is an intolerant, hyper-fascist state – it's one of a number of similar tropes that make it clear that the Imperium is not a good place to be. In the words of the blurb: 'It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.

Adding to that, it's a way to make the Imperium be intolerant without having to resort to real-world prejudice. In the fluff, I've never heard of actual racism in the Imperium and usually, no one's bothered or even surprised by a woman in a position of power. Fantasy bigotry is a great way to avoid a lot of non-fantasy headaches!
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




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Also there's the fact that mutation is a sign of Chaos. Whilst not all the Imperium are educated on chaos, its very certain that early warning signs (abnormal mutation of the body) is a sign to look out for. In a world where one day you've an extra arm and tomorrow you're eating your family and then raising an army from hell to take over the world - yeah I can see religious level hate and fear toward any who display abnormal body shape or structure.

Ab-humans are simply tolerated mutations where its proven that they aren't from Chaos and can serve a useful function within niches of Imperial society. However they will certainly take backlash from the religious level persecution of any abnormal human form (that isn't as a result of blessesings of the Machine).

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Sterling191 wrote:
 Psionara wrote:
Seems that the Imperium doesn't take quite too well to Abhumans and was wondering if there was any specific reason why?


They're an affront to the purity of the human form, but are (mostly) tolerated because the empire can't function without them.

I'm not sure that's really true. The only kind of Abhuman that's actually needed are Navigators. Although it is weird that there are people who actively work to wipe them out because that's just dumb...

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pm713 wrote:

I'm not sure that's really true. The only kind of Abhuman that's actually needed are Navigators. Although it is weird that there are people who actively work to wipe them out because that's just dumb...


It absolutely is. There are enough planets that survive purely because of abhuman labor, not to mention the contribution they make to the Guard and Navy, that wiping them out would be a death sentence for the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/16 17:04:25


 
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
pm713 wrote:

I'm not sure that's really true. The only kind of Abhuman that's actually needed are Navigators. Although it is weird that there are people who actively work to wipe them out because that's just dumb...


It absolutely is. There are enough planets that survive purely because of abhuman labor, not to mention the contribution they make to the Guard and Navy, that wiping them out would be a death sentence for the Imperium.

I don't know of any planets or roles in the Guard/Navy that are actually dependant on Abhumans. Do you have any examples?

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Halandri

The squat homeworlds were pretty important.
   
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Orn's World/Ornsworld and Sigma Agrius are examples of worlds that are dependent on abhumans – in the sense that the entire population is abhuman.

Ogryns serve a role that has no equivalent in the Guard.

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I keep reading how Beastmen are on the verge of being declared as full-fledged mutants, but that this hasn't happened yet because succeeding generations look relatively the same.
   
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A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.
   
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chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


I think by that period in history, what is considered 'normal' might have changed significantly, and what we might consider weird might be perfectly acceptable in the context of the 42 millennium. Despite all of the rhetoric about mutants and the 'holy human form,' I think that most people realize that if every group that looked somewhat different from traditional Earth-bound phenotypes was targeted, half the human race would be up for exterminatus.
   
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chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


Cos the Imperium is a bit odd

Still waiting for the Cat girl models or mention by a BL author (felineids are offical abhumans)

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 ArcaneHorror wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


I think by that period in history, what is considered 'normal' might have changed significantly, and what we might consider weird might be perfectly acceptable in the context of the 42 millennium. Despite all of the rhetoric about mutants and the 'holy human form,' I think that most people realize that if every group that looked somewhat different from traditional Earth-bound phenotypes was targeted, half the human race would be up for exterminatus.


Then why have Abhumans at all is my point. Its extremely freaking arbitrary. The people of Nocturne look way less like "normal humans" then Ratlings. Yet Ratlings are Abhumans and Nocturnians are not. The whole idea of Abhumans is dumb extremely arbitrary and overall pointless
   
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chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


There are specific genetic purity codes (administered by various Adepta within the Imperial beurocacy). If you meet them, you’re fine. If you don’t, you’re either abhuman, or a mutant. What happens to you is dependent on how far you deviate from the regs.

Appearance isn’t in and of itself indicative of anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimera0205 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


I think by that period in history, what is considered 'normal' might have changed significantly, and what we might consider weird might be perfectly acceptable in the context of the 42 millennium. Despite all of the rhetoric about mutants and the 'holy human form,' I think that most people realize that if every group that looked somewhat different from traditional Earth-bound phenotypes was targeted, half the human race would be up for exterminatus.


Then why have Abhumans at all is my point. Its extremely freaking arbitrary. The people of Nocturne look way less like "normal humans" then Ratlings. Yet Ratlings are Abhumans and Nocturnians are not. The whole idea of Abhumans is dumb extremely arbitrary and overall pointless


Because it’s a plot device, and an out of character way to justify space hobbits and space dwarves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/16 18:20:49


 
   
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The Golden Throne

 Psionara wrote:
Seems that the Imperium doesn't take quite too well to Abhumans and was wondering if there was any specific reason why?


Just grim dark utopia canon. Gives a reason to kill everything. Wouldnt be grim dark if it was all peace offerings and puppy dog tails
   
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chimera0205 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


I think by that period in history, what is considered 'normal' might have changed significantly, and what we might consider weird might be perfectly acceptable in the context of the 42 millennium. Despite all of the rhetoric about mutants and the 'holy human form,' I think that most people realize that if every group that looked somewhat different from traditional Earth-bound phenotypes was targeted, half the human race would be up for exterminatus.


Then why have Abhumans at all is my point. Its extremely freaking arbitrary. The people of Nocturne look way less like "normal humans" then Ratlings. Yet Ratlings are Abhumans and Nocturnians are not. The whole idea of Abhumans is dumb extremely arbitrary and overall pointless


Thats is a specfic and well known aspect of the Imperium - they make descisions based on flawed or even insane reasoning

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chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.

The gene seed does that, it's not a Nocturnean thing. Cadians did very well on the mutation point now I think on it. They live literally next to hell and yet all they got was purple eyes.

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Made in ca
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At risk of getting too real... the same reason that prejudice and bigotry exist in modern times?

40k isn’t Star Trek. 40k assumes that people don’t improve, and in fact tend to degenerate over time. One world’s hulking working class Ogryns are the next world’s wild monsters preying upon the Grox. A nuisance to be exterminated like great, huge wolves.

Plus the whole Mutation is loosely analogous to Chaos worship to the average, ignorant schmuck. Ignorance is a virtue in the Imperium. If *knowing* that there is a difference between “natural” mutation and Chaotic mutation is a punishable offence, how / why would you treat them differently?

But, on the reals, you might as well ask why racism exists in the modern world.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/16 21:37:14


 
   
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The imperium has an ideological narrative around humanity's manifest Destiny, divine form etc.

As a result they heavily practice eugenics by arbitrarily policing their genetics. Eugenics is a pseudoscience trotted out by racial supremicists to justify their actions.

This isn't really fantastical racism in the sense of similar metaphor (dwarfs hate elves for example). The imperium is racist by the current definition, it's just the races they are racist to are not currently existing ones. But as race is a sociocultural identity that often share physical similarities due to both geographical and cultural isolation, the imperium is TOTALLY and overtly racist.

Any new planet that doesn't look or act in the prescribed manner is at least persecuted if not outright genocided. It's cultural imperialism (appropriate for an imperium) and colonisation which all include racism.


The whole mutant=chaos things is the same kind of apologising rhetoric used by politicians today 'they're all rapists and murderers so it's ok to do X to them'.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


Because eugenics Is inherently arbitrary. You can't have rigor based on personal ideological opinion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 09:39:08


   
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One reason why Noctureans aren't classified as abhumans is because if they were, the Salamanders would put up a major stink, and I don't think that the Imperial government would want to have to deal with that. I don't think that Squats or Ratlings have the same political clout.
   
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 ArcaneHorror wrote:
One reason why Noctureans aren't classified as abhumans is because if they were, the Salamanders would put up a major stink, and I don't think that the Imperial government would want to have to deal with that. I don't think that Squats or Ratlings have the same political clout.


What about Catachans doe? There's a good reason there commonly called "baby ogryns". There just as mutated as a squat is. Just in the opposite direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.

The gene seed does that, it's not a Nocturnean thing. Cadians did very well on the mutation point now I think on it. They live literally next to hell and yet all they got was purple eyes.


Nope its all Nocturnes.

"It should be noted that the people of Nocturne have been slightly mutated by their constant exposure to the high levels of radioactivity present on their world due to the radioactive rare earth elements often uncovered by the extreme volcanism. They have developed deep ebony skins, regardless of their original ethnicities, and the irises of their eyes now glow red in the darkness because they developed over many generations the ability to see in the infrared levels of the electromagnetic spectrum to deal with the constant volcanic pollution that blocks out their world's sunlight."

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Nocturne

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 11:18:20


 
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


There are specific genetic purity codes (administered by various Adepta within the Imperial beurocacy). If you meet them, you’re fine. If you don’t, you’re either abhuman, or a mutant. What happens to you is dependent on how far you deviate from the regs.

Appearance isn’t in and of itself indicative of anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimera0205 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
A better question would be why the line is so fething arbitrary. By all accounts Catachan should be Abhumans too and have you seen the people of Nocturne with there black skin and red fething eyes. And cadians have purple eyes. That aint normal either.


I think by that period in history, what is considered 'normal' might have changed significantly, and what we might consider weird might be perfectly acceptable in the context of the 42 millennium. Despite all of the rhetoric about mutants and the 'holy human form,' I think that most people realize that if every group that looked somewhat different from traditional Earth-bound phenotypes was targeted, half the human race would be up for exterminatus.


Then why have Abhumans at all is my point. Its extremely freaking arbitrary. The people of Nocturne look way less like "normal humans" then Ratlings. Yet Ratlings are Abhumans and Nocturnians are not. The whole idea of Abhumans is dumb extremely arbitrary and overall pointless


Because it’s a plot device, and an out of character way to justify space hobbits and space dwarves.



So a different skin tone and eye colour is less human than, say, tiny hobbit creatures with rodent faces? Or giant flabby dumb-dumbs that can bench a Terminator wet? Or minotaurs? Not to open a huge can of worms, but skintone and eyecolour are not abnormal. At the end of the day, Nocturneans are just humans - 2 hands, 2 feet, 2 eyes and 5-6ft tall. Once you start adding whiskers, tails, horns and going outside those normal height ranges (ie, Demiurg, Ratlings, Orgryns) then you move into the mutation and abhuman scale.

Lets not forget that its not 1000, or even 4000 years into the future. We're talking 38,000 years into future. There is more time between today and 40k, than there is between today and the invention of farming. Given how much cosmetic alteration and surgery has advanced in the last few decades and is used today for say, breast enlargement, hair dye or fake tan/sunbeds, I find it hard to believe that in 38000 years humans never figure out how to genetically alter skin tone (ie, to give a better tan) or hair colour or eye colour.

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I'm pretty sure that the humans who live at the top of society do have colour changing hair and skintones and a load of other things. However augmentation by technology is allowed; its very different from mutation from birth.

Of course the Imperium being the Imperium its not as if everything is fair and square. They treat their working class like serfs and lower than machines. A human slaving away their entire life for the Imperium is a disposable resource that the greater body cares not one bit for; they care more for the upkeep of a servitor (which might only adjust one screwbolt on an assembly line) than the human.


Also I'd argue that in a world setting where mutation can be the hallmark of demonic possession which is only a stones throw from total anarchy and invasion by Chaos forces; a fear and misstrust down to policies to exterminate makes perfect sense. It's not like the world we live in.

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 Deadshot wrote:

So a different skin tone and eye colour is less human than, say, tiny hobbit creatures with rodent faces? Or giant flabby dumb-dumbs that can bench a Terminator wet? Or minotaurs? Not to open a huge can of worms, but skintone and eyecolour are not abnormal. At the end of the day, Nocturneans are just humans - 2 hands, 2 feet, 2 eyes and 5-6ft tall. Once you start adding whiskers, tails, horns and going outside those normal height ranges (ie, Demiurg, Ratlings, Orgryns) then you move into the mutation and abhuman scale.


Since you apparently didnt read, I'll just quote myself:

Sterling191 wrote:


There are specific genetic purity codes (administered by various Adepta within the Imperial beurocacy). If you meet them, you’re fine. If you don’t, you’re either abhuman, or a mutant. What happens to you is dependent on how far you deviate from the regs.

Appearance isn’t in and of itself indicative of anything.


Sanctioned Abhumans, despite their appearance, are compliant with the aforementioned purity dictates.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 13:04:21


 
   
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Kildare, Ireland

 greatbigtree wrote:
At risk of getting too real... the same reason that prejudice and bigotry exist in modern times?

40k isn’t Star Trek. 40k assumes that people don’t improve, and in fact tend to degenerate over time. One world’s hulking working class Ogryns are the next world’s wild monsters preying upon the Grox. A nuisance to be exterminated like great, huge wolves.

Plus the whole Mutation is loosely analogous to Chaos worship to the average, ignorant schmuck. Ignorance is a virtue in the Imperium. If *knowing* that there is a difference between “natural” mutation and Chaotic mutation is a punishable offence, how / why would you treat them differently?

But, on the reals, you might as well ask why racism exists in the modern world.


Racism is not mysterious. I'm Irish, and there's a reason Irish people are perceived as loveable/troublemaking drunks internationally. It's borne out in national statistics on alcohol abuse. Treating me (a non drinking Irishman) as if I were a drunkard would be prejudice based on pattern recognition.

One of 40k's themes is man's fears and prejudices made real. Witches are real, deamons are real, there are stupid, violent human subgroups who deserve to be ruled by better men and there are sneaky human subgroups that cannot be trusted. Your ruling caste are probably gene-edited to be better than you in every possible way, possibly excepting moral fibre.

In universe- ALL Ogryn are of very limited intelligence. There's a bell curve, such that the more intelligent ones can be enhanced to functionally lead teams of their fellows (BONE'eads). Thinking an Ogryn is dumber than you is entirely justified- they are a sub caste only suited to violent or physical labour (bodyguards, soldiers, miners, etc)
In universe, presumably not all ratlings are filthy thieves, and fantastic cooks- but enough are that they have a reputation. Treating a ratling with suspicion or assigning him to the kitchens would be like breathalysing me on learning my national origin. As a group they get assigned to sniper teams rather than basilisk loading crews, on account of all of them being tiny. That's less prejudice and more assigning tasks according to capability.

There's a cool bit on beastmen in the Ahriman novels, which touches on the culture of the herd. Survival of the fittest means that as a leader gets older, he starts to get challengers from younger, more vital males. Good-guy Ahriman uses magic to de-age a faithful beastman leader so he can go back to bullying his rivals into compliance. Beastmen are certainly not human, in the same way that genestealer hybrids aren't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 13:08:04


 
   
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 =Angel= wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
At risk of getting too real... the same reason that prejudice and bigotry exist in modern times?

40k isn’t Star Trek. 40k assumes that people don’t improve, and in fact tend to degenerate over time. One world’s hulking working class Ogryns are the next world’s wild monsters preying upon the Grox. A nuisance to be exterminated like great, huge wolves.

Plus the whole Mutation is loosely analogous to Chaos worship to the average, ignorant schmuck. Ignorance is a virtue in the Imperium. If *knowing* that there is a difference between “natural” mutation and Chaotic mutation is a punishable offence, how / why would you treat them differently?

But, on the reals, you might as well ask why racism exists in the modern world.


Racism is not mysterious. I'm Irish, and there's a reason Irish people are perceived as loveable/troublemaking drunks internationally. It's borne out in national statistics on alcohol abuse. Treating me (a non drinking Irishman) as if I were a drunkard would be prejudice based on pattern recognition.

One of 40k's themes is man's fears and prejudices made real. Witches are real, deamons are real, there are stupid, violent human subgroups who deserve to be ruled by better men and there are sneaky human subgroups that cannot be trusted. Your ruling caste are probably gene-edited to be better than you in every possible way, possibly excepting moral fibre.

In universe- ALL Ogryn are of very limited intelligence. There's a bell curve, such that the more intelligent ones can be enhanced to functionally lead teams of their fellows (BONE'eads). Thinking an Ogryn is dumber than you is entirely justified- they are a sub caste only suited to violent or physical labour (bodyguards, soldiers, miners, etc)
In universe, presumably not all ratlings are filthy thieves, and fantastic cooks- but enough are that they have a reputation. Treating a ratling with suspicion or assigning him to the kitchens would be like breathalysing me on learning my national origin. As a group they get assigned to sniper teams rather than basilisk loading crews, on account of all of them being tiny. That's less prejudice and more assigning tasks according to capability.

There's a cool bit on beastmen in the Ahriman novels, which touches on the culture of the herd. Survival of the fittest means that as a leader gets older, he starts to get challengers from younger, more vital males. Good-guy Ahriman uses magic to de-age a faithful beastman leader so he can go back to bullying his rivals into compliance. Beastmen are certainly not human, in the same way that genestealer hybrids aren't.


Yknow given how redicoulously stupid Ogryns are im genuinely confused as to how the feth any of there worlds survived the great strife with anything that even vaguely resembled a society. I mean we know for a fact that not all Ogryn worlds are feral worlds but hoooowwwwwwwwwwwwww?!
   
 
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