Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Didnt they make a decent drive but not being Warp savvy didnt have the right shielding resulting in a Tau all you cant eat buffet for the warp gribblys till some kind of higher power intervention

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Didnt they make a decent drive but not being Warp savvy didnt have the right shielding resulting in a Tau all you cant eat buffet for the warp gribblys till some kind of higher power intervention

The 4th Sphere Expansion...did not go according to plan, no.

It's highly likely that the Kroot don't understand how their technology works, but that they build their Warspheres using Orkoid DNA knowledge. IIRC the Kroot began starfaring after their world was invaded (unsuccessfully) by Orks, who got eaten. Warspheres are just more refined Ork Roks - mobile space fortresses capable of planetary landing and warp travel. So the Tau can't exactly just ask how they work, as the Kroot can't readily provide an answer to technology that's been built instinctively. Fortunately the Kroot don't seem to rely on "It works because we think it does", so their tech can actually be reverse engineered.

And the Kroot probably wouldn't be willing to allow a functioning Warsphere to be reverse engineered because they don't have that many of them - they're a huge investment and most of them are well outside Tau space.

Better question is does the tau need to FTL far.

going out far for the sake of going out far is going to waste valuable resources and stretch logistics pretty badly.

 Desubot wrote:
Better question is does the tau need to FTL far.

going out far for the sake of going out far is going to waste valuable resources and stretch logistics pretty badly.

The answer here is no. The Empire itself is very small and their choices for expansion prior to making a wormhole by accident were go into the dark space between galaxies or start invading Ultramar. Neither of those are good choices.

Older fluff (from Battlefleet Gothica) made it clear that the T'au do have a warp-based FTL travel method, which was both slower (by anywhere from a factor of 5 to what might be as low as a factor of 2 for the most technologically advanced starships) and far more reliable (not actually entering the warp proper, so not even close to as prone to disaster and essentially completely consistent in the time it takes) than Imperial warp travel.

Newer fluff makes it questionable whether the T'au retained their "Warp-skipping" FTL technology to the point of absurdity (essentially saying the T'au lacked FTL technology despite being a multi-system Empire for hundreds of years during that lack), which has slowly had its obscene gap filled with various vagaries (including a re-imagining of reverse-engineered warp travel technology that caused the Startide Nexus).

Even that newer fluff establishes that that technology, even if initially mothballed, was later refined for warp travel use.

So the question itself seems a bit nonsensical to me: The T'au don't lack Warp Travel, and they didn't lack a form of actually good FTL. They just lack Navigated warp travel, and their FTL is either very good for individual starships but bad for fleet actions (new fluff) or slowly but never capable of quite catching up in speed to the Imperium while being immensely more safe and consistent in transition (old fluff).

Old fluff is the best fluff IMO. Which is getting to be the standard for GW.

It's another case of GW writers lacking a sense of scale, both spatially and temporally. If they don't give the Tau some form of FTL, realistically Tau characters cannot make it to battles in all the various places they are shown going to in a realistic timeframe. Hence why GW at one point saying the Tau had only "near lightspeed" as opposed to FTL was a facepalming moment for me.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Older fluff (from Battlefleet Gothica) made it clear that the T'au do have a warp-based FTL travel method, which was both slower (by anywhere from a factor of 5 to what might be as low as a factor of 2 for the most technologically advanced starships) and far more reliable (not actually entering the warp proper, so not even close to as prone to disaster and essentially completely consistent in the time it takes) than Imperial warp travel.

Newer fluff makes it questionable whether the T'au retained their "Warp-skipping" FTL technology to the point of absurdity (essentially saying the T'au lacked FTL technology despite being a multi-system Empire for hundreds of years during that lack), which has slowly had its obscene gap filled with various vagaries (including a re-imagining of reverse-engineered warp travel technology that caused the Startide Nexus).

Even that newer fluff establishes that that technology, even if initially mothballed, was later refined for warp travel use.

So the question itself seems a bit nonsensical to me: The T'au don't lack Warp Travel, and they didn't lack a form of actually good FTL. They just lack Navigated warp travel, and their FTL is either very good for individual starships but bad for fleet actions (new fluff) or slowly but never capable of quite catching up in speed to the Imperium while being immensely more safe and consistent in transition (old fluff).

A little off topic, but tangentially related, if Tau have warp based FTL technology but it is the lack of Navigators that is holding them back, what is the fluff explanation for how humanity spread across the galaxy? Navigators relied on theEmperor/Astronomicum, during the Great Crusade, but what about the initial expansion before that?

Aash wrote:

A little off topic, but tangentially related, if Tau have warp based FTL technology but it is the lack of Navigators that is holding them back, what is the fluff explanation for how humanity spread across the galaxy? Navigators relied on theEmperor/Astronomicum, during the Great Crusade, but what about the initial expansion before that?

IIRC the warp was calmer back then. i may be miss remembering the order of things but i believe IoM was established before the space elf orgy explosion that ruined everything.

Ships can still warp jump without a Navigator. It's just that they are effectively limited to short jumps, then having to re-orient, before jumping again. Navigators allow for long distance travel within the warp but are not strictly speaking a requirement of warp travel. It's like how really ancient seafaring in Europe and the Mediterranean was limited to sticking fairly close to coastlines rather than heading out across open ocean.

Not every Imperial ship has to have a Navigator. Chartist ships for example are described as trading ships plying the same trade routes for years, decades, or even centuries, relying on old maps and stable routes.

Aash wrote:
A little off topic, but tangentially related, if Tau have warp based FTL technology but it is the lack of Navigators that is holding them back, what is the fluff explanation for how humanity spread across the galaxy? Navigators relied on theEmperor/Astronomicum, during the Great Crusade, but what about the initial expansion before that?

Presumably they used DAOT beacons for warp navigation.

 John Prins wrote:

Aash wrote:
A little off topic, but tangentially related, if Tau have warp based FTL technology but it is the lack of Navigators that is holding them back, what is the fluff explanation for how humanity spread across the galaxy? Navigators relied on theEmperor/Astronomicum, during the Great Crusade, but what about the initial expansion before that?

Presumably they used DAOT beacons for warp navigation.

I don't think those are things. IIRC it was just a mix of lots of small jumps and the Warp was less horrifying at the time.

pm713 wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

Aash wrote:
A little off topic, but tangentially related, if Tau have warp based FTL technology but it is the lack of Navigators that is holding them back, what is the fluff explanation for how humanity spread across the galaxy? Navigators relied on theEmperor/Astronomicum, during the Great Crusade, but what about the initial expansion before that?

Presumably they used DAOT beacons for warp navigation.

I don't think those are things. IIRC it was just a mix of lots of small jumps and the Warp was less horrifying at the time.

Sort of. Pharos devices were used, which were actually Necron technology and much shorter ranged than the Astronomican, but more numerous.

You realize they already have tried reverse engineering intact Imperial Warpdrives, right? Thats been in the lore for years now. They simply dont understand it.

As for using the Kroot, using another species to help them travel would be bad for their image, considering how heavy they rely on propoganda

123ply wrote:
You realize they already have tried reverse engineering intact Imperial Warpdrives, right? Thats been in the lore for years now. They simply dont understand it.

As for using the Kroot, using another species to help them travel would be bad for their image, considering how heavy they rely on propoganda

That would so would be so easy to spin propaganda wise its not even funny. "The Kroot are contributing to the greater good in there own way"

chimera0205 wrote:

123ply wrote:
You realize they already have tried reverse engineering intact Imperial Warpdrives, right? Thats been in the lore for years now. They simply dont understand it.

As for using the Kroot, using another species to help them travel would be bad for their image, considering how heavy they rely on propoganda

That would so would be so easy to spin propaganda wise its not even funny. "The Kroot are contributing to the greater good in there own way"

With their vastly superior technology that we can't understand or even try to use.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't Warspheres super rare and remnants of an ancient Kroot civilization? I don't think even the kroot knows how their drives work, let alone let the Tau tinker with them.

Nobody really knows. The Kroot may have chosen to give up high-tech civilization in favor of their current approach and may have hidden away the means to restart their warsphere building program should they decide to. Or maybe not. Kroot are actually pretty mysterious and give every impression of deliberately appearing primitive and therefore relatively harmless to other races.

There is an assumption that all the warspheres are old but who is actually measuring their age and how? Do you believe everything the kroot tell you?

Then there is the question of how Kravv'cha'to got to the Blackstone Fortress. Did it hitch a lift on a Warsphere in which case how does it signal for its mother ship to return? If it did not hitch a lift is it warp-capable in its own right - as are the other ships there.

The GW writers love to leave unresolved mysteries in their stuff as future plot hooks. The kroot are one big plot hook. I have no idea if they will ever use it but they are riddled with unresolved mysteries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 John Prins wrote:
It's highly likely that the Kroot don't understand how their technology works, but that they build their Warspheres using Orkoid DNA knowledge. IIRC the Kroot began starfaring after their world was invaded (unsuccessfully) by Orks, who got eaten. Warspheres are just more refined Ork Roks - mobile space fortresses capable of planetary landing and warp travel. So the Tau can't exactly just ask how they work, as the Kroot can't readily provide an answer to technology that's been built instinctively. Fortunately the Kroot don't seem to rely on "It works because we think it does", so their tech can actually be reverse engineered.

And the Kroot probably wouldn't be willing to allow a functioning Warsphere to be reverse engineered because they don't have that many of them - they're a huge investment and most of them are well outside Tau space.

Even if that were the case the Shapers would have kept that record and know how to reproduce their ability to build warspheres. That seems to be the core role of shapers in Kroot society - a repository of knowledge of "where do we get that ability when we need it". It's not like Orks are in short supply in the galaxy, find some and eat them.

AFAICS the kroot have never willingly allowed Tau to reverse engineer their ships, the Tau did investigate some wrecked Warspheres without kroot permission.

pm713 wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:

123ply wrote:
You realize they already have tried reverse engineering intact Imperial Warpdrives, right? Thats been in the lore for years now. They simply dont understand it.

As for using the Kroot, using another species to help them travel would be bad for their image, considering how heavy they rely on propoganda

That would so would be so easy to spin propaganda wise its not even funny. "The Kroot are contributing to the greater good in there own way"

With their vastly superior technology that we can't understand or even try to use.

Exactly. They contribute by letting one random kroot carnivore hang out on the bridge of every Tau ship

If you take an empire and then place its entire transportation system in the hands of another race then even if that race is allied to you it places enormous power into that race.

Just look at the Dune stories and how the Emperor of all mankind along with every major noble house has to bow to the whims and desires of the Navigators. Only the Navigators can fold space and move ships around in space and as no one else can create Navigators; they hold the greatest actual power.

Tau clearly realise this, the Etherials don't want to give into another race effectively controlling their empire through being the only feasible way to move around within it at high speed. Imagine if the Kroot decided that yes they like being part of the Greater Good, but now they want more representatives in key political positions; want more pay; more independence; more resources etc... You can't easily refuse them because they can shut down your entire space shipping and military transport system. The whole Empire could grind to a halt overnight. Sure you've other ships and means to move around, but they are far slower and once your society has adapted to a faster means of transportation its very hard to go back to a slower method.




Heck look at humanity today if all your cars stopped working tomorrow society would take years to properly adjust back to a slower form of transportation. Causing all kinds of total chaos in its wake before things would settle down.

Tau probably don’t use things until they have control and countermeasures in place.
There was a human similarity in WW2, the British, US and German Airforces had a protocol of not using tech until they’d developed an adequate counter measure.
Radar Jammers in the form of Chaff has existed since literally a few months after radar started being used but no side was willing to use it for fear the other would simply copy it and use it to retaliate.

Apart from their whole slipstream drive where they ignored the problems and tore a hole in reality.

pm713 wrote:
Apart from their whole slipstream drive where they ignored the problems and tore a hole in reality.

*waves hand*

This isnt the Startide Nexus you're looking for

 Overread wrote:
If you take an empire and then place its entire transportation system in the hands of another race then even if that race is allied to you it places enormous power into that race.

Just look at the Dune stories and how the Emperor of all mankind along with every major noble house has to bow to the whims and desires of the Navigators. Only the Navigators can fold space and move ships around in space and as no one else can create Navigators; they hold the greatest actual power.

Tau clearly realise this, the Etherials don't want to give into another race effectively controlling their empire through being the only feasible way to move around within it at high speed. Imagine if the Kroot decided that yes they like being part of the Greater Good, but now they want more representatives in key political positions; want more pay; more independence; more resources etc... You can't easily refuse them because they can shut down your entire space shipping and military transport system. The whole Empire could grind to a halt overnight. Sure you've other ships and means to move around, but they are far slower and once your society has adapted to a faster means of transportation its very hard to go back to a slower method.




Heck look at humanity today if all your cars stopped working tomorrow society would take years to properly adjust back to a slower form of transportation. Causing all kinds of total chaos in its wake before things would settle down.

Yeah but heres the thing. If both party's have the metaphorical guns to the heads of each other those kinds of relationships can still work. Yeah the Imperium does have to make some major concessions to the Navigators but keep in mind that the Navigators would be just as fethed as the Imperium would be if they did anything stupid like that. The instant they do that they get declared haretics and purged in mass and any that don get purged will likely be target numero uno when there planet goes full on Age of Strife mad max. Its the same for the kroot and tau should they enter such a relationship. Keep in mind the only reason the Kroot homeworld of pech still stands is the tau. The reason they joined the Tau in the first place was cause the Tau saved them when Pech was conquered by Orks and the Orks were slowly genociding them and using the as disposable slaves. And the Tau also protected the Kroot from Hive fleet Gorgan. No greater Tau empire and the kroot would likely all ve Tyranid food given that most if not all of there planets were in gorgons path. The Kroot taking up a postion similar to Navigators in Tau society would hardly break the Tau empire. Yeah a bit of an annoyance for the Etherals but all but guranteed to be far out weighed by the massive oppurtunitys granted by good long distance FTL

Out of honest curiosity, as I'm not as deep in the Tau lore as others: is there any statement what for they currently would need real LONG distance FTL? I get that FTL is important to hold contact between systems and spheres but is there any mention that the Tau currently would want to leave their sector or even Segmentum?

As others implied warp travel within the Tau empire might not even necessarily need navigators

Guns to the Head alliances never last long.
They are basically ticking time bombs set to go off at any point, plus when both sides have a gun to the other's head both sides are at a high risk of the other side pulling the trigger first.


I can see why Tau Etherials might not want to enter a situation where they allow another subordinate race to have such potential power over them.

Plus even if its not guns to the head level of threat there's serious political pressures that can be brought into the equation. Kroot might never seek to destroy Tau, but they might well seek for more and more favourable relations, conditions etc... They might push for a Shaper to be on the Council - then for more Shapers etc... Basically it starts messing with the internal power structure and overall system in play.


Furthermore Tau don't seem under high pressure at present to need to adopt such a strategy. They are currently expanding and whilst there are serious threats, they are doing comparatively well. Most of the big names in the Galaxy are not focusing on the Tau so the arms race isn't that bad; esp when Tau are already pretty far along for the arms race in many other ways.


So right now I'd say Tau are exploring other options whilst they've got time a bit on their side. Exploring, getting ideas and aiming toward a system they can control.

As far as I know there was a push at some point to make all ftl warp based and since the tau don't have psykers well.... I hope the tau end up getting some non warp based ftl like wormhole travel in the future so that they remain distinct from humans.

Pyroalchi wrote:
Out of honest curiosity, as I'm not as deep in the Tau lore as others: is there any statement what for they currently would need real LONG distance FTL? I get that FTL is important to hold contact between systems and spheres but is there any mention that the Tau currently would want to leave their sector or even Segmentum?

As others implied warp travel within the Tau empire might not even necessarily need navigators

At present they dont. But without the development of such tech, the Empire will never grow, and their holy crusade to spread the Greater Good will never come to fruition (sound familiar at all?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Guns to the Head alliances never last long.
They are basically ticking time bombs set to go off at any point, plus when both sides have a gun to the other's head both sides are at a high risk of the other side pulling the trigger first.

Mexican standoffs like this inevitably end when one faction (or more commonly a radical splinter group of one faction) decides that having gak out and taking their chances is far preferable to the status quo. The Ethereals know that there are factions within the Empire willing to rebel against their authority (despite their best efforts Farsight is still a legend with considerable popular support, especially among the Fire Caste). They know that any power ceded by them can, and will, be used against them. Which is why they clamp down as much as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:

Yeah but heres the thing. If both party's have the metaphorical guns to the heads of each other those kinds of relationships can still work. Yeah the Imperium does have to make some major concessions to the Navigators but keep in mind that the Navigators would be just as fethed as the Imperium would be if they did anything stupid like that. The instant they do that they get declared haretics and purged in mass and any that don get purged will likely be target numero uno when there planet goes full on Age of Strife mad max. Its the same for the kroot and tau should they enter such a relationship. Keep in mind the only reason the Kroot homeworld of pech still stands is the tau. The reason they joined the Tau in the first place was cause the Tau saved them when Pech was conquered by Orks and the Orks were slowly genociding them and using the as disposable slaves. And the Tau also protected the Kroot from Hive fleet Gorgan. No greater Tau empire and the kroot would likely all ve Tyranid food given that most if not all of there planets were in gorgons path. The Kroot taking up a postion similar to Navigators in Tau society would hardly break the Tau empire. Yeah a bit of an annoyance for the Etherals but all but guranteed to be far out weighed by the massive oppurtunitys granted by good long distance FTL

You *vastly* underestimate the influence that Navigators wield within the Imperium. Piss off the wrong Navigator house and an entire sector can be consigned to oblivion.

The Ethereals will never give that kind of power to another entity, especially a client species.

Then there is the matter of logistic.

Tau: We want to use your warp tech. We will need a Kroot Navigator for each of our ships.

Kroot: How many is that?

Tau: One Million.

Kroot: We don’t have that many navigators.

Tau: How long to train them up?

Kroot: About as long as it will take you to “train up” a million Ethereals.

Tau: Ethereals are born not trained.

Kroot: Then you understand me.

There is another factor here.

We know from the Farsight storyline that Ethereals know more about the warp - and the entities within it - than they are letting on. It is quite possible that they know enough that they know how dangerous it is. Therefore they do not want to mess with the warp in any manner that their scientists do not have a full understanding of - messing with unmodified alien tech whether it be from allies or enemies is messing with the unknown and the Ethereals are aware that those risks are magnified when the warp is concerned.

So they were led to believe that the Slipstream drive was a well understood reverse engineering of studied alien tech and permitted its development on those grounds. When it turned out to be not so well understood they banned further R&D on it.

Basically the Ethereals may have decided it is better to have a small safe empire than have a vast galaxy-wide empire subverted by Chaos.