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I mean, it's true your experience is an outlier, Sim-Life.

 Sim-Life wrote:
It's amazing how often I say on here that our casual groups enjoys 40k and doesn't think there's any glaringly bad balance that I'm told we must just all be bad at the game or playing it wrong.

While being told you're playing it wrong isn't cool, enjoying the game doesn't mean it's good or that the complaints about bad balance aren't valid. It just means you're enjoying it despite those things, which is honestly more power to you and your groups.

Dudeface wrote:

 auticus wrote:
GW doesn't need to change anything because regardless of the low quality work that they put out rules-wise, people will still line up around the block to throw their money at them.

If you want to affect change you need to not reward the company for bad work.

For you to enact change you need me not to buy stuff, when I'm not overly upset with GW personally.

No. If you are upset with GW's bad rules, then you need to not buy stuff. If you are a fan boy, keep on keeping on. Same with any product on the market. The If statement that you quoted from me was pretty clear on that.

*if you want to affect change* - yes/no. Yes? Don't buy stuff. No - happy with GW? Keep buying stuff. If you want to affect change and keep buying stuff anyway, they have no incentive to change because they are getting your money anyway.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Archon Sinter wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Anomander's point stands. Two people can't take the same points and get a good game too much of the time.

Yes they can. I think our group has only had one "bad" game since 8th started and it was mostly because the players dice turned against him.

I question the legitimacy of their competitive spirit if this is the case.

If that was your point, that a local gaming club can still have relative balance i'd agree. Honestly it's hard to follow after 20 something pages.

I don't think things are nearly as bad as people are saying, if you don't count the latest cluster of releases (that's a big IF), but i do agree GW has a piss poor record of testing their products and they could / should do more.

It's amazing how often I say on here that our casual groups enjoys 40k and doesn't think there's any glaringly bad balance that I'm told we must just all be bad at the game or playing it wrong.

it's a fun with friends game. Sounds like you aren't only playing it right, you and your friends are winning!

Ok, I know that players should not have to patch a premium product or to „do GWs job for them”. I know that working out the balance yourself or repairing busted rules and then convincing people to accept they are not OP for your own gain is hard and unsuitable for pick-up culture. But since the last 30 years have shown that you are likely to have to wait a decade for things to change in your favour, why not try to save your own enjoyment of your favourite hobby on casual level via simple rules patches, self-steering towards a tie, like e.g. something like this:

Strenght from GW incompetence: at the beginning of a battle round, the player with less VP may try to Seize the Initiative.

This is a port of a rule that exists in Dark Age TTWG, considered by some to be far more balanced. Originally it is a d20 roll-off modified by respective VPs of players and player with lower score goes first that turn. Of course in AA system of Dark Age it grants a less substantial benefit, but with 40k levels of power gaps occasional double turn for a losing player should not be too much of a handicap. The main advantage of such solution is that you do not have to dabble deeper in redesigning 40k, it is dynamic and works post first roll, it is fast to relay to your casual opponent, it does not invalidate anything existing, and the reason for such rule is easily explained. It can be tweaked for the power gap- trash tier vs IH? seize on 4+..., or use a roll-off as in original, so it is connected directly to current score. The only drawbacks I can see is player downtime during opponents double turn and it works only with progressive scoring missions. But it should increase the fun for both parties, unless someones idea of fun is clubbing baby seals and does not want additional chalenge.

Just a food for thought of course.

I think if you are playing the game at the casual level in a private garage or basement setting with a close knit group of players that all can agree to and actually adhere to an agreement to not field broken filth, that the game could be a lot of fun.

However if you are primarily a public player playing at stores at pickup games, or a tournament player (either way both are public games with a wide variety of players) then you're going to have to either accept it is what it is and adopt that mentality, or you are going to have issues.

 auticus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 auticus wrote:
GW doesn't need to change anything because regardless of the low quality work that they put out rules-wise, people will still line up around the block to throw their money at them.

If you want to affect change you need to not reward the company for bad work.

For you to enact change you need me not to buy stuff, when I'm not overly upset with GW personally.

No. If you are upset with GW's bad rules, then you need to not buy stuff. If you are a fan boy, keep on keeping on. Same with any product on the market. The If statement that you quoted from me was pretty clear on that.

*if you want to affect change* - yes/no. Yes? Don't buy stuff. No - happy with GW? Keep buying stuff. If you want to affect change and keep buying stuff anyway, they have no incentive to change because they are getting your money anyway.

And when the people upset with the rules (yet keep playing mysteriously), stop buying stuff and GW don't care or change. Then what?

Dudeface wrote:

 auticus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 auticus wrote:
GW doesn't need to change anything because regardless of the low quality work that they put out rules-wise, people will still line up around the block to throw their money at them.

If you want to affect change you need to not reward the company for bad work.

For you to enact change you need me not to buy stuff, when I'm not overly upset with GW personally.

No. If you are upset with GW's bad rules, then you need to not buy stuff. If you are a fan boy, keep on keeping on. Same with any product on the market. The If statement that you quoted from me was pretty clear on that.

*if you want to affect change* - yes/no. Yes? Don't buy stuff. No - happy with GW? Keep buying stuff. If you want to affect change and keep buying stuff anyway, they have no incentive to change because they are getting your money anyway.

And when the people upset with the rules (yet keep playing mysteriously), stop buying stuff and GW don't care or change. Then what?

Then you hold out until change happens, it is pretty simple. You don't need everything they're selling. Guess what? Rules and such are SUPER easy to procure without buying their product, so don't reward them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
I think if you are playing the game at the casual level in a private garage or basement setting with a close knit group of players that all can agree to and actually adhere to an agreement to not field broken filth, that the game could be a lot of fun.

So what happens when someone decides they picked up Angel Marines or Grey Knights or Harlequins or Necrons while someone else picked up Codex Marines or Eldar or Imperial Guard? Surprise surprise! The former three armies are significantly written worse! No amount of "casual level" fixes that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what happens when someone decides they picked up Angel Marines or Grey Knights or Harlequins or Necrons while someone else picked up Codex Marines or Eldar or Imperial Guard? Surprise surprise! The former three armies are significantly written worse! No amount of "casual level" fixes that.

I would agree but that scenario has to happen in small/private clubs, and they have to be dealing with it somehow right (and no, not by not playing or buying a different army). So the question here would be, how do these very casual level groups in someone's garage or basement or similar very small tight-knit group handle it?

 auticus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 auticus wrote:
GW doesn't need to change anything because regardless of the low quality work that they put out rules-wise, people will still line up around the block to throw their money at them.

If you want to affect change you need to not reward the company for bad work.

For you to enact change you need me not to buy stuff, when I'm not overly upset with GW personally.

No. If you are upset with GW's bad rules, then you need to not buy stuff. If you are a fan boy, keep on keeping on. Same with any product on the market. The If statement that you quoted from me was pretty clear on that.

*if you want to affect change* - yes/no. Yes? Don't buy stuff. No - happy with GW? Keep buying stuff. If you want to affect change and keep buying stuff anyway, they have no incentive to change because they are getting your money anyway.

I am in agreement with your last line. The invisible hand of the market is the real influence that GW feels, although they certainly seem to want to understand the state of the game in the wild. Right now the market seems pretty happy with the game, including the competitive crowd. There are wait lists for 40K tournaments in my area, while games like Warmachine geared for tournaments don't even have them anymore locally and the models are in the bargain bin. Weird huh? This must be frustrating for those who are not happy with the game, but there it is. I hope that people only collect and play because they enjoy the game. I understand the frustration somebody might feel who once enjoyed the game but no longer does so. I put my models away for a few years when I was unhappy with the game (6th/7th), but now I am back.

Regarding your throwing in the term "fan boy" to describe those who are happy with the game: some folks have a different opinion on 40K than you do, and they might also be rational people who make their own assessments of value.

It is fanboying though, because you give excuses to them you wouldn't give anyone else.

If Warhammer was released as is, without the 30 years of fluff, do you honestly believe the game would go well? The answer is no, of course not!

And when the people upset with the rules (yet keep playing mysteriously), stop buying stuff and GW don't care or change. Then what?

Quote simply you find a new game to play. If the people upset with the rules keep playing the game that they hate, thats on them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is fanboying though, because you give excuses to them you wouldn't give anyone else.

If Warhammer was released as is, without the 30 years of fluff, do you honestly believe the game would go well? The answer is no, of course not!

I guess we get to dismiss your opinions as a "hater" or "troll" then? Which would you prefer?

Myself and 5 other people I know in my local community have quit (hopefully only temporarily) because 8th edition and GW itself has gone off the rails.

My purchasing came to a complete halt quite some time ago due to release fatigue and now I've stopped playing altogether because of the Vigilus campaign books being used in Organized Play events and Psychic Awakening being forced down our throats.

Two year edition lifespan is bs.
GW has gone way too far with pushing books.
GW has back tracked on all of their original promises for what 8th edition is supposed to be. ALL OF THEM.
GW is embracing and fostering a WAAC play style (thanks to bias tournament player influence because that's who they're using for play testers).
Slowly forcing obsolescence on their most iconic property (i.e. Space Marines) all while being completely disingenuous with their fan base about it.
White Dwarf is the worst its ever been.
A release schedule that's completely absurd.
GW's obvious fear of PC culture creeping in and them bowing to it.

It's sad, it's disheartening, I've been involved with 40K for 25 years. I've weathered some pretty bad stuff, but what's happening right now... I cannot take it. I'm so completely disenchanted with EVERYTHING they're doing. I look at my game room with complete disgust for GW and just walk away pretending it's not there - for several months now.

Regarding your throwing in the term "fan boy"

A fan boy is a fan boy. Its not derogatory to me. It means you are all in regardless of negative issues you might have. If you prefer the term "super fan" then use that instead. To me they mean the same thing.

I have star wars fan boys all over my facebook. Disney could trot out Darth Feces, a claymation turd with googly eyes and a ramen noodle light saber painted red, and they'd be telling everyone that the movie was 10/10 awesome because star wars. Those are fan boys.

In GW land fan boys are people that will tell you the games rules are crap and not balanced at all, but they love it anyway for other reasons (lore, models, an active community, things that have nothing to do with gaming) and will continue to shovel their paycheck to GW for more.

Tournament players love that tournaments have a huge following, regardless of rules. It is a nuclear reaction that feeds itself.

If we waved a wand today and 40k never existed as a game, and Bolt Action was the game everyone played at tournaments, and then Joe's Game Shop invented 40k with the same models, same rules, etc... 40k wouldn't register much at all because its biggest positive is that you can go anywhere in the world and get a game in irregardless of bad rules.

It is the one game where your investment is safe. How many times a week do I hear people talking about how they wished other games were popular because the rules are bad, yet continue down the gw road because everyone else is playing it.

Tournaments are huge because tournaments are huge. Not because the game itself is awesome but because the community (which is bigger than the game) is awesome.

~3 years ago GW rallied with a great reinvention of WFB into AoS, a new simpler and better edition of W40K; started engaging the community and releasing some absolutely incredible things, but they're falling deep into their old ways because they cannot keep the absolutely insane pace they've been going at.

 oni wrote:
~3 years ago GW rallied with a great reinvention of WFB into AoS, a new simpler and better edition of W40K; started engaging the community and releasing some absolutely incredible things, but they're falling deep into their old ways because they cannot keep the absolutely insane pace they've been going at.

i will say in theory the PA approach is better than what they've tried before. Give a little something to everyone, rather than well I get a book now and you have to wait 2 years for yours or some nonsense. Not that PA itself did anything major but the idea is sound; I liked how in Warmahordes every book gave at least one new unit to every faction, so nobody was left behind. GW doesn't need to keep adding new units, obviously, but the "everyone gets a little" approach is good.

The way they are releasing though is clearly not sustainable since it's making the team sloppy (not to say it would be any better if they weren't, but it can't be helping) as well as not giving adequate time to test (again no guarantees it would be better tested without the crazy schedule, but the crazy schedule is hindering testing anyway).

I do find it a bit funny though looking back on what they said 8th would be since most of it turned out to be complete fabrications or just vague enough to not be called out as outright lies.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't need everything they're selling. Guess what? Rules and such are SUPER easy to procure without buying their product, so don't reward them.

Either the game is fun enough to play and you can buy the rules or it is not and you don't need stolen rules either. Do not try to justify your piratism as some sort of a moral stance.

"Renault's cars are not nearly as good as they should be for the price they're asking, so stealing this Clio is totally morally justified!"

It is fanboying though, because you give excuses to them you wouldn't give anyone else.

If Warhammer was released as is, without the 30 years of fluff, do you honestly believe the game would go well? The answer is no, of course not!

AOS seems to be doing pretty OK these days!

Besides, that 30 years of fluff exists. And if that increases someone's enjoyment of the game then that is totally valid.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't need everything they're selling. Guess what? Rules and such are SUPER easy to procure without buying their product, so don't reward them.

Either the game is fun enough to play and you can buy the rules or it is not and you don't need stolen rules either. Do not try to justify your piratism as some sort of a moral stance.

"Renault's cars are not nearly as good as they should be for the price they're asking, so stealing this Clio is totally morally justified!"

It is fanboying though, because you give excuses to them you wouldn't give anyone else.

If Warhammer was released as is, without the 30 years of fluff, do you honestly believe the game would go well? The answer is no, of course not!

AOS seems to be doing pretty OK these days!

Besides, that 30 years of fluff exists. And if that increases someone's enjoyment of the game then that is totally valid.

It is valid, but it doesn't excuse it. And that's the issue. "I'm having fun so everything is fine" is NOT valid and is a big part of a very wrong mentality in the world (the old "Well it works fine for me so nothing can be wrong" approach). "There might be issues but I'm having fun" is valid. I think the problem Slayer has is that people are denying there are any issues at all because someone ignores them. Which I understand, since it's hard to see problems that don't affect you, and someone else's problems might not be yours. But I think that's the disconnect. Slayer is saying unequivocally the game has serious problems (and I'm inclined to agree for the most part). Someone else says well I'm having fun and don't see any problems, so the game is fine and has no issues at all, which puts that mindset at odds.

I believe what gives rise to the "fanboy" moniker is the fact that nothing is perceived as wrong, even though that's technically valid based on the individual. But the point remains, if 40k wasn't 40k with GW behind it, the game would probably be laughed out of the park due to its rules and balance and gameplay. So it's only the fact it is 40k and GW is GW which makes those things not so important.

 auticus wrote:
In GW land fan boys are people that will tell you the games rules are crap and not balanced at all, but they love it anyway for other reasons (lore, models, an active community, things that have nothing to do with gaming) and will continue to shovel their paycheck to GW for more.

This is such a red herring. We are all GW fans, the fact that your here proves that, otherwise you're just complaining about something you have no stake it.

I'm a competitive player, by no means a slayer but i do enjoy the min/max aspect of the tournament scene. That's not to say GW hasn't done a piss poor job of testing, or that i'm happy with the cash grab direction they are going. When i was a kid i told myself "it's peuter that costs money" now i tell myself i've got disposable income

I really don't think anyone is saying that there aren't any issues, merely that they personally enjoy the game despite of them. Slayer simply doesn't seem to be able to accept this.

Dudeface wrote:

 auticus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 auticus wrote:
GW doesn't need to change anything because regardless of the low quality work that they put out rules-wise, people will still line up around the block to throw their money at them.

If you want to affect change you need to not reward the company for bad work.

For you to enact change you need me not to buy stuff, when I'm not overly upset with GW personally.

No. If you are upset with GW's bad rules, then you need to not buy stuff. If you are a fan boy, keep on keeping on. Same with any product on the market. The If statement that you quoted from me was pretty clear on that.

*if you want to affect change* - yes/no. Yes? Don't buy stuff. No - happy with GW? Keep buying stuff. If you want to affect change and keep buying stuff anyway, they have no incentive to change because they are getting your money anyway.

And when the people upset with the rules (yet keep playing mysteriously), stop buying stuff and GW don't care or change. Then what?

Then they're playing other games, which have now become more popular and easier to play pick-up, and everybody wins anyway!

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't need everything they're selling. Guess what? Rules and such are SUPER easy to procure without buying their product, so don't reward them.

Either the game is fun enough to play and you can buy the rules or it is not and you don't need stolen rules either. Do not try to justify your piratism as some sort of a moral stance.

"Renault's cars are not nearly as good as they should be for the price they're asking, so stealing this Clio is totally morally justified!"

It is fanboying though, because you give excuses to them you wouldn't give anyone else.

If Warhammer was released as is, without the 30 years of fluff, do you honestly believe the game would go well? The answer is no, of course not!

AOS seems to be doing pretty OK these days!

Besides, that 30 years of fluff exists. And if that increases someone's enjoyment of the game then that is totally valid.

I like that you compare stealing the rules to stealing a car. Nope it IS justified. If you're going to charge your customers for a premium product and not deliver a premium product, that's too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I really don't think anyone is saying that there aren't any issues, merely that they personally enjoy the game despite of them. Slayer simply doesn't seem to be able to accept this.

I don't accept people constantly rewarding their behavior.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I like that you compare stealing the rules to stealing a car.

Thanks.

Nope it IS justified. If you're going to charge your customers for a premium product and not deliver a premium product, that's too bad.

Then don't buy it and stop playing! If you think the game is so horrible, why would you want to play anyway?

I don't accept people constantly rewarding their behavior.

Too bad. I don't need to ask you whether I enjoy the game, and neither does anyone else. If people are having fun with the game, it is perfectly logical for them to spend money on it.

 Archon Sinter wrote:

 auticus wrote:
In GW land fan boys are people that will tell you the games rules are crap and not balanced at all, but they love it anyway for other reasons (lore, models, an active community, things that have nothing to do with gaming) and will continue to shovel their paycheck to GW for more.

This is such a red herring. We are all GW fans, the fact that your here proves that, otherwise you're just complaining about something you have no stake it.

I'm a competitive player, by no means a slayer but i do enjoy the min/max aspect of the tournament scene. That's not to say GW hasn't done a piss poor job of testing, or that i'm happy with the cash grab direction they are going. When i was a kid i told myself "it's peuter that costs money" now i tell myself i've got disposable income

I'm not really interested in pedantically arguing terms or words. The meaning is pretty clear. If you aren't enjoying the game, stop spending money. If enough people enjoy the game and want to keep shoveling money at GW, then hats off to you. There are enough people I encounter daily that don't like the rules that continue shoveling money at GW. Those are the people to whom I am addressing because you are rewarding the company for its bad balance practices so to them everyone loves their bad balance so they will keep doing it.

It is indeed a massive struggle to get people to invest in other games becausue the investment is simply not safe. I know if I drop $500 on a 40k army I'll always have opponents, despite hating the rules. But thats a personal value judgementt I have to make. Do I hate the rules enough to not play. For me that answer was yes. I monitor 40k boards and AOS / fantasy boards because I hope the rules come around to a point where I can enjoy the game again. For 40k that means terrain meaning something and them stopping the pay to win garbage of shifting metas around instead of working on the internal and external balance issues.

For AOS that means making terrain meaningful, removing the double turn, and putting a big curb on free summoning pay to win mechanics.

Those are my personal issues and I don't mess with the game until they fix those, and won't spend a dime until they have changed those things, because playing AOS or 40k right now is akin to slamming appendages I hold dear in a door over and over. However, I want them to produce a product I can somewhat enjoy, so I lurk and contribute without playing anymore.

I have been kickstarting other games in my area, and its very hard, but those efforts bear fruit after some time. You just have to have extreme patience and not need a vast ocean of players to make you happy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You clearly never tried to get another game going in your area and don't understand the struggle. You're a spoiled brat in that instance. There isn't another game to use the models I have, simple as that. Otherwise I very much would.

But are you having fun playing? If you don't then there is no point playing even if there was no other games available. Or you have fun, so the game can't be as bad as you claim. And obviously people in your gaming community do not think 40K is so bad, or you wouldn't have problems getting those other games going. Granted, if you're equally personable in the real life than on the internet it is rather understandable if you have trouble convincing anyone about anything.

However based on your posts you fit the archetype of fanboy too well and you'll buy everything anyway.

I only buy rules I will use. I didn't buy Vigilus stuff, I didn't buy the Psychic Awakening stuff. But I didn't use those rules in a game either. I haven't even bought any of the marine supplements yet, as marines are good enough for casual play without them. However, if I attend a tournament I'll obviously buy a supplement then (IF, probably.)

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You clearly never tried to get another game going in your area and don't understand the struggle. You're a spoiled brat in that instance. There isn't another game to use the models I have, simple as that. Otherwise I very much would.

But are you having fun playing? If you don't then there is no point playing even if there was no other games available. Or you have fun, so the game can't be as bad as you claim. And obviously people in your gaming community do not think 40K is so bad, or you wouldn't have problems getting those other games going. Granted, if you're equally personable in the real life than on the internet it is rather understandable if you have trouble convincing anyone about anything.

However based on your posts you fit the archetype of fanboy too well and you'll buy everything anyway.

I only buy rules I will use. I didn't buy Vigilus stuff, I didn't buy the Psychic Awakening stuff. But I didn't use those rules in a game either. I haven't even bought any of the marine supplements yet, as marines are good enough for casual play without them. However, if I attend a tournament I'll obviously buy a supplement then (IF, probably.)

Based on the fact I have to essentially sell my nursing home to potential new patients, that's clearly not the issue. See, there's tons in the bay area and you simply need to show that yours is better than the other, especially when there's a ton of variety that will meet various needs for your family member.

Compare that to 40k and trying to get a different game going in the area. Even in the bay area that's difficult, and there's a LOT of people and a LOT of games. However you can't guarantee you can even get one person to stick to it. This is why you're akin to the spoiled brat I made mention of earlier: you don't have to try to get anything simply because you don't actually care and in reality, even though you say you have issues, you don't do anything about it and pretend everything is fine.

Let's try to minimize the snarky jabs so one of the more overzealous mods here doesn't butt in and stop the discussion.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Compare that to 40k and trying to get a different game going in the area. Even in the bay area that's difficult, and there's a LOT of people and a LOT of games. However you can't guarantee you can even get one person to stick to it. This is why you're akin to the spoiled brat I made mention of earlier: you don't have to try to get anything simply because you don't actually care and in reality, even though you say you have issues, you don't do anything about it and pretend everything is fine.

I mean yeah, on the list of things I care about 'competitive balance of 40K' certainly doesn't rank terribly high. I think that is pretty normal. Perhaps you should try that? I mean it is not even top of my 40K related concerns, I care much more about model releases and on the rule side I care more about variety of gear options existing so that I can model them than I care about those options being balanced. So please try understand this, people here who say here that they enjoy the game despite the issues are not 'pretending everything is fine', they merely have different priorities than you.

And about affecting things, do you really think that your raging here rand antagonising people really accomplishes anything?

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Compare that to 40k and trying to get a different game going in the area. Even in the bay area that's difficult, and there's a LOT of people and a LOT of games. However you can't guarantee you can even get one person to stick to it. This is why you're akin to the spoiled brat I made mention of earlier: you don't have to try to get anything simply because you don't actually care and in reality, even though you say you have issues, you don't do anything about it and pretend everything is fine.

I mean yeah, on the list of things I care about 'competitive balance of 40K' certainly doesn't rank terribly high. I think that is pretty normal. Perhaps you should try that? I mean it is not even top of my 40K related concerns, I care much more about model releases and on the rule side I care more about variety of gear options existing so that I can model them than I care about those options being balanced. So please try understand this, people here who say here that they enjoy the game despite the issues are not 'pretending everything is fine', they merely have different priorities than you.

And about affecting things, do you really think that your raging here rand antagonising people really accomplishes anything?

It isn't even balanced casually! You're denying that too!