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Wayniac wrote:
Let's try to minimize the snarky jabs so one of the more overzealous mods here doesn't butt in and stop the discussion.

bout 15 pages too late

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It isn't even balanced casually! You're denying that too!

I am not denying it, just don't care as much as you do. Seriously, the balance has been kinda gak as long as I've played this game, which is long. So I really can't get worked up about it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I like that you compare stealing the rules to stealing a car.

Thanks.

Nope it IS justified. If you're going to charge your customers for a premium product and not deliver a premium product, that's too bad.

Then don't buy it and stop playing! If you think the game is so horrible, why would you want to play anyway?

I don't accept people constantly rewarding their behavior.

Too bad. I don't need to ask you whether I enjoy the game, and neither does anyone else. If people are having fun with the game, it is perfectly logical for them to spend money on it.

You clearly never tried to get another game going in your area and don't understand the struggle. You're a spoiled brat in that instance. There isn't another game to use the models I have, simple as that. Otherwise I very much would.

So I will only ever buy the models I need, and I won't give GW even one cent for their printed materials. They don't deserve it, and if you did the same maybe those issues you supposedly do have would eventually be listened to. However based on your posts you fit the archetype of fanboy too well and you'll buy everything anyway.

Oh the irony, they're a spoilt brat but you're paddying because you can't get people to play what you want the way you want it.

I don't like the way you painted your front door, I'll take that for free, you deserve it.

Guess what, if you steal GW books they still think you want to play the game so badly, you'd steal for it. So they retain a player to sell models to and the world keeps on turning.

Reassess your priorities, you've devolved into a petulant spoiled brat through the course of this thread

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It isn't even balanced casually! You're denying that too!

I am not denying it, just don't care as much as you do. Seriously, the balance has been kinda gak as long as I've played this game, which is long. So I really can't get worked up about it.

So if you don't care, what's the point even of buying codices? Just roll dice and go pewpew. Either GW does their job or they don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I like that you compare stealing the rules to stealing a car.

Thanks.

Nope it IS justified. If you're going to charge your customers for a premium product and not deliver a premium product, that's too bad.

Then don't buy it and stop playing! If you think the game is so horrible, why would you want to play anyway?

I don't accept people constantly rewarding their behavior.

Too bad. I don't need to ask you whether I enjoy the game, and neither does anyone else. If people are having fun with the game, it is perfectly logical for them to spend money on it.

You clearly never tried to get another game going in your area and don't understand the struggle. You're a spoiled brat in that instance. There isn't another game to use the models I have, simple as that. Otherwise I very much would.

So I will only ever buy the models I need, and I won't give GW even one cent for their printed materials. They don't deserve it, and if you did the same maybe those issues you supposedly do have would eventually be listened to. However based on your posts you fit the archetype of fanboy too well and you'll buy everything anyway.

Oh the irony, they're a spoilt brat but you're paddying because you can't get people to play what you want the way you want it.

I don't like the way you painted your front door, I'll take that for free, you deserve it.

Guess what, if you steal GW books they still think you want to play the game so badly, you'd steal for it. So they retain a player to sell models to and the world keeps on turning.

Reassess your priorities, you've devolved into a petulant spoiled brat through the course of this thread

Did you actually read the post or get mad because you fall in the category of fanboy?

Dudeface wrote:
I don't like the way you painted your front door, I'll take that for free, you deserve it.

Comparing physical goods to digital ones and equating theft to copyright infringement has never been a valid comparison, regardless of where you stand on the issue.

Dudeface wrote:
Guess what, if you steal GW books they still think you want to play the game so badly, you'd steal for it.

As someone who has worked in the videogame industry, where piracy is a huge deal: No, this is simply not based in fact. To start with, GW has no useful metrics on how many people are downloading their products, which might be used to inform demand. Even if they did, I have never heard a single instance of piracy rates being used to infer that the product is desired as-is with no modifications. It's always the opposite; either do further market research to figure out why people are pirating and how they could be enticed to buy legitimately (carrot), and/or invest in DRM to try to make piracy harder to begin with (stick).

GW's books not selling well in comparison to models is legitimately one of the only things that could indicate that their approach to books needs to be rethought.

In the meantime, while I own two codices and two indices from this edition, I am using Battlescribe for the Blood of Baal rules, because I really am not keen to pay $50 for eight pages of relevant content. And I fully intend to say so on the annual survey, for whatever that's worth to GW. I guess it's a wonder I haven't stolen any doors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So if you don't care, what's the point even of buying codices? Just roll dice and go pewpew. Either GW does their job or they don't.

The books contain rules, those rules work well enough for me on the rare occasion I want to play a game with my models. And they certainly work better now than in the last edition. It's really not that hard to get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

GW's books not selling well in comparison to models is legitimately one of the only things that could indicate that their approach to books needs to be rethought.

This is true, and that's why I haven't bough their campaign books. But then I'm not using those rules either.

When the Kirby-era corporate GW suits talked about the "loyal customer" who could be depended on to always buy the product, they didn't mean those of us who actually enjoy the game and product, and feel we're getting reasonable return on our investment. They meant the people who go right on buying the products no matter how much they complain and rage and yell and send angry letters (which includes you, Slayer, no matter how much you think pirating rulebooks is "sticking it to the man").

It's like the "Wednesday Warrior" in comic books. It doesn't mean someone who's buying the current X-Men comics and praising them online because they really enjoy the direction they've been going in since House of X. It means the person who keeps on buying a huge $75 stack of all the Big Two titles every single week because they need to "keep up with the continuity", regardless of how much they do or don't like the current creative teams and story arcs.

Just thought that was important to say, cos some people seem to have it backwards. Buying products you enjoy isn't blind loyalty. Buying products out of some sense that you're obligated to do so, that's blind loyalty.

By the way, I thought pro-piracy conversations were against the rules here anyway? I got a warning from a mod about it the other day, and that was for something way way more low-key than what Slayer's going on about in here.

 catbarf wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I don't like the way you painted your front door, I'll take that for free, you deserve it.

Comparing physical goods to digital ones and equating theft to copyright infringement has never been a valid comparison, regardless of where you stand on the issue.

Dudeface wrote:
Guess what, if you steal GW books they still think you want to play the game so badly, you'd steal for it.

As someone who has worked in the videogame industry, where piracy is a huge deal: No, this is simply not based in fact. To start with, GW has no useful metrics on how many people are downloading their products, which might be used to inform demand. Even if they did, I have never heard a single instance of piracy rates being used to infer that the product is desired as-is with no modifications. It's always the opposite; either do further market research to figure out why people are pirating and how they could be enticed to buy legitimately (carrot), and/or invest in DRM to try to make piracy harder to begin with (stick).

GW's books not selling well in comparison to models is legitimately one of the only things that could indicate that their approach to books needs to be rethought.

In the meantime, while I own two codices and two indices from this edition, I am using Battlescribe for the Blood of Baal rules, because I really am not keen to pay $50 for eight pages of relevant content. And I fully intend to say so on the annual survey, for whatever that's worth to GW. I guess it's a wonder I haven't stolen any doors.

Netflix killed piracy and then all the new streaming services brought it back XD also I know someone that works in a publishing company and 200 page hardcover books costs no more than 10 dollars, if even, to produce and print and distribute. If their books are getting ripped off I am not surprised nor do I have any sympathy. Video games industry... I actually feel really bad for. The rapidly increasing quality in graphics is causing production costs of video games to skyrocket but most people don’t understand that. And the seemingly ruthless gouging in content and rise of various experiments on how to sell a game for 60$ to make a profit honestly kind of sucks for everyone involved (DLC, pay to win, etc..) a lot of their woes are also due to gamestop basically setting a clock on the time a video game has to make money... The music industry also kind of brought its own problems on itself; I purchased a fully produced album with gorgeous custom CD jacket art and lyrics in the jacket, with very high quality audio production quality at 5$ directly from a band with no record label... music labels are ripping you off so bad at 4x that rate...

But again, GW books shouldn’t cost more than 30$ a pop. And that’s steep from a person in the publishing industry’s opinion.

I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

I'm just gonna say I can definitely see why Slayer has very little experience with friendly games…

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

Well like I said I think the issue isn't people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments, it's that they aren't acknowledging that it's bad because they don't experience any of the bad parts, while presumably, Slayer does often. Slayer's emphasis seems to be on the "Game's fine, my friends and I are having a blast. Everything is great!" mindset.

Wayniac wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

Well like I said I think the issue isn't people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments, it's that they aren't acknowledging that it's bad because they don't experience any of the bad parts, while presumably, Slayer does often. Slayer's emphasis seems to be on the "Game's fine, my friends and I are having a blast. Everything is great!" mindset.

Couldn't it just as easily be said that people aren't acknowledging that it's good because they don't experience any of the good parts?

The game being good or bad, and to what degree, is a subjective opinion thing! I don't know why people keep wanting to act like "the game is bad" is some objective, empirical fact, like "Games Workshop is based in Nottingham, UK" or "Warhammer 40k is a tabletop wargame played with hand-painted miniatures and models".

nataliereed1984 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

Well like I said I think the issue isn't people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments, it's that they aren't acknowledging that it's bad because they don't experience any of the bad parts, while presumably, Slayer does often. Slayer's emphasis seems to be on the "Game's fine, my friends and I are having a blast. Everything is great!" mindset.

Couldn't it just as easily be said that people aren't acknowledging that it's good because they don't experience any of the good parts?

The game being good or bad, and to what degree, is a subjective opinion thing! I don't know why people keep wanting to act like "the game is bad" is some objective, empirical fact, like "Games Workshop is based in Nottingham, UK" or "Warhammer 40k is a tabletop wargame played with hand-painted miniatures and models".

Yes, exactly. I'm saying I think that's Slayer's issue. They think the game is objectively bad, and saying you don't see anything wrong with it is disingenuous

 auticus wrote:
A fan boy is a fan boy. Its not derogatory to me. It means you are all in regardless of negative issues you might have. If you prefer the term "super fan" then use that instead. To me they mean the same thing.

It's rather less the "fan" part than the "boy" part. Setting aside the implication that no girls need apply, it's still infantilising and condescending (the American use age carrying even more baggage.

As an experiment, head for the pub and call everyone "boy" all night. Tell us how that works out...

Besides, as "fan" is shorthand for "fanatic," if thre's a need to emphasise that still works.

macluvin wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I don't like the way you painted your front door, I'll take that for free, you deserve it.

Comparing physical goods to digital ones and equating theft to copyright infringement has never been a valid comparison, regardless of where you stand on the issue.

Dudeface wrote:
Guess what, if you steal GW books they still think you want to play the game so badly, you'd steal for it.

As someone who has worked in the videogame industry, where piracy is a huge deal: No, this is simply not based in fact. To start with, GW has no useful metrics on how many people are downloading their products, which might be used to inform demand. Even if they did, I have never heard a single instance of piracy rates being used to infer that the product is desired as-is with no modifications. It's always the opposite; either do further market research to figure out why people are pirating and how they could be enticed to buy legitimately (carrot), and/or invest in DRM to try to make piracy harder to begin with (stick).

GW's books not selling well in comparison to models is legitimately one of the only things that could indicate that their approach to books needs to be rethought.

In the meantime, while I own two codices and two indices from this edition, I am using Battlescribe for the Blood of Baal rules, because I really am not keen to pay $50 for eight pages of relevant content. And I fully intend to say so on the annual survey, for whatever that's worth to GW. I guess it's a wonder I haven't stolen any doors.

Netflix killed piracy and then all the new streaming services brought it back XD also I know someone that works in a publishing company and 200 page hardcover books costs no more than 10 dollars, if even, to produce and print and distribute. If their books are getting ripped off I am not surprised nor do I have any sympathy. Video games industry... I actually feel really bad for. The rapidly increasing quality in graphics is causing production costs of video games to skyrocket but most people don’t understand that. And the seemingly ruthless gouging in content and rise of various experiments on how to sell a game for 60$ to make a profit honestly kind of sucks for everyone involved (DLC, pay to win, etc..) a lot of their woes are also due to gamestop basically setting a clock on the time a video game has to make money... The music industry also kind of brought its own problems on itself; I purchased a fully produced album with gorgeous custom CD jacket art and lyrics in the jacket, with very high quality audio production quality at 5$ directly from a band with no record label... music labels are ripping you off so bad at 4x that rate...

But again, GW books shouldn’t cost more than 30$ a pop. And that’s steep from a person in the publishing industry’s opinion.

Can't relate to the video game example, but when I used to be in a band we sold the demos for like 3-5$. Buying music will either be directly from the band at a show or when I go into a music store and peruse the $1 section for covers that intrigue me. That's how I discovered Lesbian, Gotsu-Totsu-Kotsu, and Turbonergo of all bands (though I mostly don't go out of my way to discover punk stuff).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

You're not even listening to the argument are you? Lemme separate the words individually for you so you can understand the grand point:
The. Game. Is. Not. Balanced. For. Either. Tournament. Or. Casual. Play.

You denying that doesn't change that as actual absolute fact. Every time I have asked "what about casual Angel Marines, Grey Knights, and Necrons vs Casual Codex Marines, Eldar, and Imperial Guard", literally none of you decided to tackle that point. It's because you don't HAVE an argument.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

macluvin wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I don't like the way you painted your front door, I'll take that for free, you deserve it.

Comparing physical goods to digital ones and equating theft to copyright infringement has never been a valid comparison, regardless of where you stand on the issue.

Dudeface wrote:
Guess what, if you steal GW books they still think you want to play the game so badly, you'd steal for it.

As someone who has worked in the videogame industry, where piracy is a huge deal: No, this is simply not based in fact. To start with, GW has no useful metrics on how many people are downloading their products, which might be used to inform demand. Even if they did, I have never heard a single instance of piracy rates being used to infer that the product is desired as-is with no modifications. It's always the opposite; either do further market research to figure out why people are pirating and how they could be enticed to buy legitimately (carrot), and/or invest in DRM to try to make piracy harder to begin with (stick).

GW's books not selling well in comparison to models is legitimately one of the only things that could indicate that their approach to books needs to be rethought.

In the meantime, while I own two codices and two indices from this edition, I am using Battlescribe for the Blood of Baal rules, because I really am not keen to pay $50 for eight pages of relevant content. And I fully intend to say so on the annual survey, for whatever that's worth to GW. I guess it's a wonder I haven't stolen any doors.

Netflix killed piracy and then all the new streaming services brought it back XD also I know someone that works in a publishing company and 200 page hardcover books costs no more than 10 dollars, if even, to produce and print and distribute. If their books are getting ripped off I am not surprised nor do I have any sympathy. Video games industry... I actually feel really bad for. The rapidly increasing quality in graphics is causing production costs of video games to skyrocket but most people don’t understand that. And the seemingly ruthless gouging in content and rise of various experiments on how to sell a game for 60$ to make a profit honestly kind of sucks for everyone involved (DLC, pay to win, etc..) a lot of their woes are also due to gamestop basically setting a clock on the time a video game has to make money... The music industry also kind of brought its own problems on itself; I purchased a fully produced album with gorgeous custom CD jacket art and lyrics in the jacket, with very high quality audio production quality at 5$ directly from a band with no record label... music labels are ripping you off so bad at 4x that rate...

But again, GW books shouldn’t cost more than 30$ a pop. And that’s steep from a person in the publishing industry’s opinion.

Can't relate to the video game example, but when I used to be in a band we sold the demos for like 3-5$. Buying music will either be directly from the band at a show or when I go into a music store and peruse the $1 section for covers that intrigue me. That's how I discovered Lesbian, Gotsu-Totsu-Kotsu, and Turbonergo of all bands (though I mostly don't go out of my way to discover punk stuff).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

You're not even listening to the argument are you? Lemme separate the words individually for you so you can understand the grand point:
The. Game. Is. Not. Balanced. For. Either. Tournament. Or. Casual. Play.

You denying that doesn't change that as actual absolute fact. Every time I have asked "what about casual Angel Marines, Grey Knights, and Necrons vs Casual Codex Marines, Eldar, and Imperial Guard", literally none of you decided to tackle that point. It's because you don't HAVE an argument.

Just because you state opinion as fact does not make it so.

You saying "nah opinion" does not work. I can mathematically show you, as it has been done multitudes of times, how bad certain armies are. Numbers are not opinions.

So can you actually prove the game is balanced?

nataliereed1984 wrote:
The game being good or bad, and to what degree, is a subjective opinion thing! I don't know why people keep wanting to act like "the game is bad" is some objective, empirical fact

I mean, the same can be said of film, but there is such thing as critical consensus. People can enjoy bad movies, but it's generally agreed that there are certain things that work better than others and elements that are indicative of good or bad films.

From a game design perspective, there are some very specific things in 40K that you can point to as 'not representative of generally accepted best practice'. IGOUGO limits player interaction to 5-6 major decisions, the vast array of stratagems and special rules creates a significant cognitive burden, and the high numbers of dice rolls to resolve basic interactions (inc re-rolls) is time-consuming. I'm sure there are people who enjoy these gameplay elements, but it is not accidental that the rest of the industry has been keen to ditch these holdovers of 80s/90s-era game design.

I mean, heck, I already mentioned that I have history in the videogame industry- that's about as subjective as it gets, but we still had yearly conferences about best practices and design advice, and there's still some general sense of what games are widely considered good or bad, and I spent whole semesters at school just dissecting successful and unsuccessful games to figure out what makes them tick.

Which is all to say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying 40K, but there are elements that can be regarded as objectively bad, at least to the degree that anything in media can be considered 'objectively bad'. I can completely understand the frustration with legitimate criticisms being dismissed with 'but I have fun with it', although Slayer is getting a little overzealous here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You saying "nah opinion" does not work. I can mathematically show you, as it has been done multitudes of times, how bad certain armies are. Numbers are not opinions.

So can you actually prove the game is balanced?

I can mathematically define how much handicap must be issued for a given faction matchup to have a close game and that in no way means that I don’t see a problem with GW provided balance. It simply means that I prefer to enjoy my time by playing the game rather than endlessly insult people on the interwebz.

Get over it already - some people simply accept reality for what it is and try to find workarounds to have fun.

Is there any point to this thread now it’s just become a “Slayer barking at people for playing wrong” thread?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You saying "nah opinion" does not work. I can mathematically show you, as it has been done multitudes of times, how bad certain armies are. Numbers are not opinions.

So can you actually prove the game is balanced?

Oh yes, mathhammer. That thing that falls apart as soon as you actually play a game and realise that the game isn't played on Planet Bowling Ball and units don't fight facing off 1v1 while the rest of the armies politely stand back and watches while waiting their turn to fight their designated opponent and dice don't roll statistically, perfectly average with every roll.

Unless you mean tournament data? Which doesn't account for dice swings or player skill and a whole shedload of other variables which basically renders it useless for anything other than figuring out what the most OP army of the moment is. Except for when things like necrons or grey knights win.

 catbarf wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
The game being good or bad, and to what degree, is a subjective opinion thing! I don't know why people keep wanting to act like "the game is bad" is some objective, empirical fact

I mean, the same can be said of film, but there is such thing as critical consensus. People can enjoy bad movies, but it's generally agreed that there are certain things that work better than others and elements that are indicative of good or bad films.

Sure. And I'd have no problem with anyone saying "there is a general consensus that late-8th edition 40k is a flawed game".

But people aren't saying that, they're being "you're not acknowledging that it's bad!", as though it's climate change denialism or something.

And the fact that there isn't a consensus is pretty clearly demonstrated both by the "you're not acknowledging" and the fact that we've now had 25 pages of people disagreeing. A consensus that it's flawed, and could be better, and isn't "balanced"? Yes. A consensus that it's "bad"? Absolutely not.

I just don't get why we can't just treat this question of preferences and tastes as a question of preferences and tastes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You saying "nah opinion" does not work. I can mathematically show you, as it has been done multitudes of times, how bad certain armies are. Numbers are not opinions.

So can you actually prove the game is balanced?

"The game is bad" and "the game is unbalanced" are two different things, Slayer.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
"The game is bad" and "the game is unbalanced" are two different things, Slayer.

Not really. Even in a narrative context, the game is adversarial. There is a winner and a loser. Unless your fluff is "my Necrons suck and their tombworld was accidentally overrun when an Imperial Guard regiment mistakenly landed there" or something, it is still important to have rules that define "realistic" (here I mean "narratively consistent") outcomes.

For example, it is narratively inconsistent for Grey Knights to autolose to Chaos.

Wayniac wrote:
Well like I said I think the issue isn't people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments, it's that they aren't acknowledging that it's bad because they don't experience any of the bad parts,

I'd go as far to say in many cases it is because they don't experience anything else, period.

Saying "I like 40K" or variations thereon is a perfectly fine opinion to have, but if all you do is play 40K or even simply within the GW eco system, then it is akin to eating exclusively at McDonald's and claiming the Big Mac is the finest foodstuff in all creation. Nobody can claim you aren't within your rights to hold that opinion, you are entitled to hold it and other people might indeed agree with you if their experience mirrors yours.

I don't question the validity of anyone's opinion, but there are some expressed here which, to me, lack credibility.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

Correction it's his fall back when he loses. We all buy plastic army men and spend too much relatively on it.we are all fanboys.

Also of course gw doesn't test with competitive players because unless you're getting paid for it it's hard to get in enough games a week to properly play test a whole system and note all the weaknesses for a book compared to at least 12 other books it's just a problem. This is not to say that space marines are not a step above.....they are. However some can still compete

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
"The game is bad" and "the game is unbalanced" are two different things, Slayer.

Not really. Even in a narrative context, the game is adversarial. There is a winner and a loser.

We're going in circles now, so I'm just going to refer you back to everything people have already said earlier about the adversarial aspect not necessarily being that big a deal to all players.

And really, if this thread is seriously going to be an argument about whether or not a game can be objectively bad or good, that is just way too silly for me. Certain basic things need to be taken as a given - like "preferences are subjective" and "qualitative judgements cannot be proven or disproven" - for any discussion to have merit.

I'm not even saying that all opinions are equally credible and equally valid. Some opinions are ridiculous, and some opinions are well-informed. But we should at least be able to admit an opinion is an opinion, not a fact.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Is there any point to this thread now it’s just become a “Slayer barking at people for playing wrong” thread?

The notion that playing it right seems to involve a dose of piracy was... novel, I guess.

nataliereed1984 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
"The game is bad" and "the game is unbalanced" are two different things, Slayer.

Not really. Even in a narrative context, the game is adversarial. There is a winner and a loser.

We're going in circles now, so I'm just going to refer you back to everything people have already said earlier about the adversarial aspect not necessarily being that big a deal to all players.

And really, if this thread is seriously going to be an argument about whether or not a game can be objectively bad or good, that is just way too silly for me. Certain basic things need to be taken as a given - like "preferences are subjective" and "qualitative judgements cannot be proven or disproven" - for any discussion to have merit.

I'm not even saying that all opinions are equally credible and equally valid. Some opinions are ridiculous, and some opinions are well-informed. But we should at least be able to admit an opinion is an opinion, not a fact.

Opinion stated as fact is the foundation of Dakka though.

 captain collius wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think GWs books must be selling just fine considering we appear to be getting a new one every month for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if the cognitive dissonance Slayer is suffering from the idea of people enjoying 40k outside of tournaments is whats causing him to fall back on just calling everyone a fanboy.

Correction it's his fall back when he loses. We all buy plastic army men and spend too much relatively on it.we are all fanboys.

Undoubtedly, but don't make the mistake of thinking were all GW fanboys.

Also of course gw doesn't test with competitive players because unless you're getting paid for it it's hard to get in enough games a week to properly play test a whole system and note all the weaknesses for a book compared to at least 12 other books it's just a problem. This is not to say that space marines are not a step above.....they are. However some can still compete

Well, yes they do allegedly test with competitive players, but you're right about not paying people to play test, even studio staff were expected to do that on their won time at one point. Perhaps still.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
"The game is bad" and "the game is unbalanced" are two different things, Slayer.

Not really. Even in a narrative context, the game is adversarial. There is a winner and a loser. Unless your fluff is "my Necrons suck and their tombworld was accidentally overrun when an Imperial Guard regiment mistakenly landed there" or something, it is still important to have rules that define "realistic" (here I mean "narratively consistent") outcomes.

For example, it is narratively inconsistent for Grey Knights to autolose to Chaos.

I am sure most people here would agree that 40K's poor balancing is a detriment for the game, but everyone doesn't think it is enough to make the game 'bad' as there are other aspects they enjoy and they find the game fun regardless of its shortcoming. Ultimately games are for fun, if you're having fun playing it, it cannot be a terribly bad game.