Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jidmah wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I know the sort of players Grimtuff means. Some of them can afford commission painting, but choose to spend money elsewhere. Others will buy that third riptide instead of eating for the week. Plastic crack is a real addiction

Except the problem is the person, not the lack of paint.
Owning painted models is no indicator of whether a person is enjoyable to play against, despite what some people on this thread claim.

I’d just like to point out I was making a response to Brian’s post about commission painting, not saying anyone is more or less fun to play against for whatever reason.

Just saying this as it’a my post being quoted at the start for this next round of bickering.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Been burnt too many times to waste my time and energy just setting up my lovingly painted and converted models for them to be took off the board by some Johnny-come-lately FOTM netlist of grey plastic.

So being blown off the board by commission painted FOTM netlists is fine?

Being blown off the board by a commission painted netlist is certainly better. A: It looks nicer, and B: The owner has committed to his/her army more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I am not a great painter by any means, though I have improved quite a bit over the last several years from watching videos and reading painting tips. I had 2 games(and saw a few other games played)of 40k this weekend and the painted vs painted matches drew much more attention than painted vs unpainted and significantly more than bare plastic vs bare plastic. I had a lot more non-40k players ask about our game and what was going on and if they could watch than the other tables.

Thankfully none of the stores have a painting requirement but it definitely draws a lot more attention to a table with 2 painted armies and 40k as a whole. I can see where a store would want to incentivize getting players to paint models, both local stores do painting nights where you can come in and socialize while you paint and learn painting tips and tricks from other people.

Very much this. The game presents better when everything is painted, and thus advertises better for stores carrying the product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

For you. Not everyone agrees with you.

Let's not be disingenuous here. Practically everyone thinks the game looks better with painted models, regardless of whether they actually play with such.

Care to offer proof of your claim?

It's pretty easy to make the case that it's the intended way to play, considering GW hasn't to my knowledge published a single pic of a game using unpainted models in the history of 40k.

...not what I was talking about, though several other people have already given you excellent answers that disagree with your point.

Disagree with the idea that finished models are the intended way to play? I doubt that, given the amount of attention put to painted miniatures and hobby products.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Being blown off the board by a commission painted netlist is certainly better. A: It looks nicer, and B: The owner has committed to his/her army more.

How has he committed more? Because he spent more money on it?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Being blown off the board by a commission painted netlist is certainly better. A: It looks nicer, and B: The owner has committed to his/her army more.

How has he committed more? Because he spent more money on it?

That's one measure, sure.

A painted army to me signals that someone is either committed to a list, or committed to the hobby. Grey plastic often signals to me flavor of the month or someone who will show up with a completely different list build next week. Not always, but often.

If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

I've seen way more WAAC players with painted armies than with unpainted ones, so I might as well claim that painting your army makes you more likely to be a cheater, liar or bad sportsman.

Or maybe we could drop all those prejudices and stop demonizing players with unpainted models with BS arguments.
"I like painted models" does not need a justification.Especially not if that justification is a baseless insult to others.

 Jidmah wrote:
If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

I've seen way more WAAC players with painted armies than with unpainted ones, so I might as well claim that painting your army makes you more likely to be a cheater, liar or bad sportsman.

Or maybe we could drop all those prejudices and stop demonizing players with unpainted models with BS arguments.
"I like painted models" does not need a justification.Especially not if that justification is a baseless insult to others.

That is an exceedingly illogical post, requiring the narrowest of interpretations to find a counterpoint, and not really reading my post. I think you ought to try that again.

 Jidmah wrote:
If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

I've seen way more WAAC players with painted armies than with unpainted ones, so I might as well claim that painting your army makes you more likely to be a cheater, liar or bad sportsman.

Or maybe we could drop all those prejudices and stop demonizing players with unpainted models with BS arguments.
"I like painted models" does not need a justification.Especially not if that justification is a baseless insult to others.

Spot-on, Jid.

Have fun how you have fun, and let others do the same without insulting them. I barely care about paint, and as a result, have mostly unpainted minis. If you care about that, don't play me-I won't be hurt. But don't crap on me because I have fun differently.

For what it's worth to the discussion on GW's intent when it comes to playing their games with painted or unpainted miniatures, a principle of the AoS Player's Code is that your opponent's permission should be requested if you wish to use unpainted minis. Therefore painted miniatures are not strictly necessary if the players agree they can be used (and I think most people would be fine with that) but painted minis are clearly encouraged as the "default".

A really intriguing nugget in this discussion is the notion of 40k as a shared experience between players. A few people here have expressed that they prefer their opponent to have painted miniatures, whether for atmosphere or enhancing the "cinematic" element of playing 40k, or even just because they find it easier to tell what is what on the tabletop. I'm curious as to how the folks who don't enjoy painting feel about the idea painting their stuff to potentially improve the experience of those other players? A lot of people have expressed their preference to not paint their miniatures, but I'd be interested to see to what extent (if any) those folks are willing to concede their personal preference for the shared experience. I ask this question because, and I hope I haven't overlooked any posts, I haven't seen anyone saying that they prefer their opponent to play with unpainted minis.

Just for the record, I really don't enjoy assembling most miniatures, so I fully appreciate the pain some people might have engaging with an aspect of the hobby they don't enjoy much. Unfortunately for me the bit I don't like is necessary to use the miniatures so I don't have the option of skipping it!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

I've seen way more WAAC players with painted armies than with unpainted ones, so I might as well claim that painting your army makes you more likely to be a cheater, liar or bad sportsman.

Or maybe we could drop all those prejudices and stop demonizing players with unpainted models with BS arguments.
"I like painted models" does not need a justification.Especially not if that justification is a baseless insult to others.

That is an exceedingly illogical post, requiring the narrowest of interpretations to find a counterpoint, and not really reading my post. I think you ought to try that again.

Not in the slightest. I normally enjoy reading your posts because you present yourself as an intelligent and understanding person. Conversing with you in this has been a disappointment.

You're letting your prejudices and personal preferences dictate to others something that is very subjective. While you may have had issues with WAAC players with unpainted armies, that's not automatically the norm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nurgle5 wrote:
For what it's worth to the discussion on GW's intent when it comes to playing their games with painted or unpainted miniatures, a principle of the AoS Player's Code is that your opponent's permission should be requested if you wish to use unpainted minis. Therefore painted miniatures are not strictly necessary if the players agree they can be used (and I think most people would be fine with that) but painted minis are clearly encouraged as the "default".

A really intriguing nugget in this discussion is the notion of 40k as a shared experience between players. A few people here have expressed that they prefer their opponent to have painted miniatures, whether for atmosphere or enhancing the "cinematic" element of playing 40k, or even just because they find it easier to tell what is what on the tabletop. I'm curious as to how the folks who don't enjoy painting feel about the idea painting their stuff to potentially improve the experience of those other players? A lot of people have expressed their preference to not paint their miniatures, but I'd be interested to see to what extent (if any) those folks are willing to concede their personal preference for the shared experience. I ask this question because, and I hope I haven't overlooked any posts, I haven't seen anyone saying that they prefer their opponent to play with unpainted minis.

Just for the record, I really don't enjoy assembling most miniatures, so I fully appreciate the pain some people might have engaging with an aspect of the hobby they don't enjoy much. Unfortunately for me the bit I don't like is necessary to use the miniatures so I don't have the option of skipping it!

While I do like painting, and personally prefer painted armies over unpainted for my own use, I find that if someone is trying to force me to do something in an activity I do purely for fun, my response is typically to stubbornly refuse. If on the other hand they offer encouragement, and promote the benefits of their way in a way that's not patronizing, then I'm likely to at least give it a try.

I personally play with partially painted armies. I make progress when I can, and even my completed armies are frequently works in progress. If someone called me lazy for not having a completely painted army, I'd laugh in their face.
If someone said I was 'less dedicated', I'd tell them that yes, I was less dedicated, and that how I spend my hobby time is none of their business.
If they refused to play me solely on the grounds of paint, I wouldn't force the issue, but I'd also encourage others, including new players to avoid them.
If any one tried to force their standards on me directly, my usual reply would be to say "Make me".

The same goes if I see this happening to other people in my area. Granted, in my experience, people who insist on pushing their standards typically aren't people I want to play games against for several other reasons (or the same reason, but in other context).

So to answer your question; if your desire is to play against fully painted armies, and you're encouraging, rather than a jerk, then I'll be inclined to put in the extra effort. If you try to force the issue, you wouldn't be worth my time.

 nurgle5 wrote:
I'm curious as to how the folks who don't enjoy painting feel about the idea painting their stuff to potentially improve the experience of those other players?

Id probably still paint the miniatures, at least eventually. I don't like assembling much either, but as you say, that part you HAVE to do.

personally, a lot of visual stuff doesn't do anything for me, and im not even sure why. I like this setting because of the stories, and id play it as well. paints don't mean as much to me because they register far less to my eyes than say, a conversion or a kitbash. sure, really high painting quality can be neat, but its not nearly as effective on me as it is on others. that's why it's not a high priority at all to me. hard to want to sit and paint when you can barely glean anything except the time counted for the effort to do it. doesn't mean it wouldn't eventually get done.

I can get wanting the paint on the models, especially for promotion. what i don't get is measuring assumed effort in painted models just because they are as some have stated here. I can just ebay lot something painted I consider well done at that point. there's also such a thing as a bad paintjob.
I also don't get the concept of Paint being a make or break for a game with a ruleset people outright point out the flaws in constantly. again, something others said here. All that had me thinking is "okay, since im being called lazy at the least for not wanting to paint models, struggling to find a project to do, and having issues with this companies costs, why bother?" but then when i asked about why one puts good paint after bad rules with rising costs, i got crickets.

I guess i just play this game wrong, and honestly, i probably do.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

I've seen way more WAAC players with painted armies than with unpainted ones, so I might as well claim that painting your army makes you more likely to be a cheater, liar or bad sportsman.

Or maybe we could drop all those prejudices and stop demonizing players with unpainted models with BS arguments.
"I like painted models" does not need a justification.Especially not if that justification is a baseless insult to others.

That is an exceedingly illogical post, requiring the narrowest of interpretations to find a counterpoint, and not really reading my post. I think you ought to try that again.

Not in the slightest. I normally enjoy reading your posts because you present yourself as an intelligent and understanding person. Conversing with you in this has been a disappointment.

You're letting your prejudices and personal preferences dictate to others something that is very subjective. While you may have had issues with WAAC players with unpainted armies, that's not automatically the norm.

I'm not dictating anything to others. I'm saying that a painted army presents itself better. I could probably claim that as objective and measureable, too. I could also say that it's how the product is presented by the company, and that the company encourages it.

I'm not saying you have to paint your army to have fun.

 Insectum7 wrote:


I'm not saying you have to paint your army to have fun.

My apologies, many of your posts in this thread gave me that impression.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bdrone wrote:


I guess i just play this game wrong, and honestly, i probably do.

If you're having fun, who cares?

For me personally, painting is the most important thing. I have an art/design background, so I'm very visually inclined to begin with, and on top of that, I don't have the time to actually play that I used to. In fact, I only made it out to my GW store three times in 2018. Twice to pick up supplies for Armies on Parade, and once to bring in my entry for Armies on Parade. I didn't get to the LGS at all. So yeah, if I'm going to enjoy my hobby, it's going to be (primarily) through reading and painting. The closest I will ever get to fielding "unpainted" stuff is that sometimes I will play a unit or two that are completely painted but haven't had their bases done yet.

That said, I've never been the guy to tell others they're having fun wrong. So while I prefer to play against a painted army, I will also happily play against an unpainted one. In terms of painted armies, I don't really care how well you can paint. I'm a decent painter (won best painted at my local Armies on Parade this year), so I'm happy to help someone, or give pointers if asked, but again - if you're trying to paint, but aren't very good - I'll still happily line my toy soldiers up against yours. My only requirement is to have your models actually assembled. I have had, on occasion, someone try to play me but with the caveat that "Those ten bases that only have legs glued to them are Tactical Marines", and, "the armless/headless lot are assault marines" etc etc. That I will not do, but otherwise, yeah, the only "standard" I hold others to is to have fun and enjoyable games. If you don't like painting, I'll still play you.

Playing with painted models > Playing with grey models

Playing against painted models > Playing against grey models

Playing against a cool guy/girl > Everything else

Jidmah wrote:If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

I've seen way more WAAC players with painted armies than with unpainted ones, so I might as well claim that painting your army makes you more likely to be a cheater, liar or bad sportsman.

Or maybe we could drop all those prejudices and stop demonizing players with unpainted models with BS arguments.
"I like painted models" does not need a justification.Especially not if that justification is a baseless insult to others.

Very true. I've seen equal proportions of TFG from painted, primed, and "grey" army owners. While I enjoy oggling the models, I wouldn't enjoy the game any more just because I really hate being around TFGs. Oggling models doesn't require a game to do so, but but being with someone who helps build an epic event does.

Insectum7 wrote:That is an exceedingly illogical post, requiring the narrowest of interpretations to find a counterpoint, and not really reading my post. I think you ought to try that again.

Or more that he is explaining his point, but that his point of view is just so vastly different.

Galas wrote:Playing with painted models > Playing with grey models

Playing against painted models > Playing against grey models

Playing against a cool guy/girl > Everything else

Very true.

 Charistoph wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:That is an exceedingly illogical post, requiring the narrowest of interpretations to find a counterpoint, and not really reading my post. I think you ought to try that again.

Or more that he is explaining his point, but that his point of view is just so vastly different.

I don't believe so, no.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:That is an exceedingly illogical post, requiring the narrowest of interpretations to find a counterpoint, and not really reading my post. I think you ought to try that again.

Or more that he is explaining his point, but that his point of view is just so vastly different.

I don't believe so, no.

Exactly my point. Such a vast difference in point of view that you cannot conceive a potentiality that he could be right... in his own way.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Bdrone wrote:


I guess i just play this game wrong, and honestly, i probably do.

If you're having fun, who cares?

clearly enough do, and due to the "social contract" of this kind of game, they aren't wrong, even if I was having fun, and im not. Guess i have folks to thank for helping me see that better.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:That is an exceedingly illogical post, requiring the narrowest of interpretations to find a counterpoint, and not really reading my post. I think you ought to try that again.

Or more that he is explaining his point, but that his point of view is just so vastly different.

I don't believe so, no.

Exactly my point. Such a vast difference in point of view that you cannot conceive a potentiality that he could be right... in his own way.

Uhhh, no. His first statement is just a straight up logical fallacy. He says:

 Jidmah wrote:
If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

Which is simply not true. Money spent on commissioned paint jobs is ONE metric, not the totality of metrics. I even put that single metric into context in my post, but Jidmah chose to breeze past it.

Personally, I won't bring an unpainted miniature to the table. I prefer it if my opponent does the same, but do not at all require it. I can still enjoy playing against grey plastic - so long, of course, that the other player isn't a anyway.

We all may hobby in different ways, and that's fine, but I hope we can all game to have fun together at least.

 Galas wrote:
Playing with painted models > Playing with grey models

Playing against painted models > Playing against grey models

Playing against a cool guy/girl > Everything else

Perfect

The simplest statement about this part of wargaming miniatures is this:

Painted minis do not make a game cool, but they always make a game cooler.

Before such arguments begin, this statement is predicated upon any player doing such painting because they genuinely want to show off their efforts. Efforts not made in such good faith are obviously not part of this statement. A player throwing two colors on some miniatures, crossing their arms and basically saying "Fine, there. Now they're painted" is obviously not showing the right mentality. Someone obviously proud of a paintjob that showcases the current limit of their skill, even if their job might be honestly pretty bad compared to those done by someone more skilled, is showing the right kind of spirit.

While it helps make the game much more interesting and makes pictures cooler, i'd rather see an army of gray than an army of globbed acrylic paints...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
While it helps make the game much more interesting and makes pictures cooler, i'd rather see an army of gray than an army of globbed acrylic paints...

Not if that's the best they can paint at the moment and are still learning. We have all sucked at painting at first, and then those of us that chose to do so, got methodically better.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
While it helps make the game much more interesting and makes pictures cooler, i'd rather see an army of gray than an army of globbed acrylic paints...

Not if that's the best they can paint at the moment and are still learning. We have all sucked at painting at first, and then those of us that chose to do so, got methodically better.

Exactly I was a terrible painter for quite a few years until I actually put the effort in to learn(I am still not amazing but it’s a hell of a lot better), a table top quality paint job is far from impossible to achieve. There are a ton of painting tutorials on YouTube anymore and lots of articles to read that are all aimed at helping new painters improve and get to at least a tabletop quality paint job.

I was thrilled when I got a compliment from a person I know is a great painter this weekend, it felt great for someone to acknowledge the effort I put into improving my painting skills.

speaking BTW for myself I absolutely prefer to paint my minis, I HATE showing up to a game with grey plastic, and if I do I apologize in advance, luckly it's only happened once for a kill team game, the guy didn't care, as it happens the mini that wasn't painted was also such an awesome build (it was a intercessor with a MK 3 helmet, the spiked pauldron and a combat knife in one hand, it's a fun agressive looking mini) my opponent thought it looked really cool, so I was glad I brought it. (the mini has since been painted)

which I suppose is worth noting for this argument, there is a midway point between "an army of all grey" and an army fully painted. everyone is buying new models for their army etc, so even those of us who strive for fully painted sometimes just don't get something finished in time but want to use it. it's hardly reasonable for example to refuse to play someone with a fully painted sisters army on sunday just because they're not painted their triumph yet

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

Which is simply not true. Money spent on commissioned paint jobs is ONE metric, not the totality of metrics. I even put that single metric into context in my post, but Jidmah chose to breeze past it.

Sorry, but I understood you perfectly. I just pointed out a massive flaw in your logic, which is that anyone with a fully painted army is automatically a better opponent and more invested hobbyist than someone with an unpainted or unfinished army.

Look, I know one guy who is playing at the stores here who has beautiful painted models, he is always running the current top netlists, is a total horror to play against and doesn't even own a single pot of paint. I also know the woman who is building and painting all his stuff on commission, who is basically doing that full time whenever a new powerful army drops. Why does he paint those models? Because some events enforce painting standards, and while you're at it, you can also cash in on all the painting prizes.
If you tell me that guy is more invested into the hobby than anyone with grey models, you are just flat out wrong. You just like painted models and demonize everyone who doesn't have his army painted up to your standards.

I'm not sure about Warhammer yet, but when I play Warmachine, I do not see models past their deployment stage. What I see in my mind are chess pieces. I'm solely focused on my units and they are still unpainted besides that one model. I couldn't care less that they are all white. What I care is what to do on my turn and see if I made any errors which opponent now is going to exploit.

Also, with humans it is always silly and subjective. There is painting requirement. Well, technically basing all my models in fabulous bright yellow is painting them, right? I will add laughable amount of additional painting to them and call it a day. Any judge or person who would disagree with me will be objectively a hypocrite, because they will break their own "only painted models" rule.

Having read some of the earlier posts, it is probable that I do not actually share a hobby with those who see their minis simply as chess pieces that enable them to play the 8th edition ruleset. I assemble and paint my army because I love the 40K setting and lore. Playing the game, for me, is just something I can do with the minis once I have finished them, it is not the main objective.

I'm not a great painter, and dislike batch painting, but I won't field unfinished models because they don't contribute to what I enjoy about the hobby. I am also not so desperate to play that I will do so either against a stranger's unpainted army, or on a table without proper, painted terrain.

 harlokin wrote:
Having read some of the earlier posts, it is probable that I do not actually share a hobby with those who see their minis simply as chess pieces that enable them to play the 8th edition ruleset. I assemble and paint my army because I love the 40K setting and lore. Playing the game, for me, is just something I can do with the minis once I have finished them, it is not the main objective.

I'm not a great painter, and dislike batch painting, but I won't field unfinished models because they don't contribute to what I enjoy about the hobby. I am also not so desperate to play that I will do so either against a stranger's unpainted army, or on a table without proper, painted terrain.

And all that is a perfectly fine way to enjoy your free time