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BrianDavion wrote:
speaking BTW for myself I absolutely prefer to paint my minis, I HATE showing up to a game with grey plastic, and if I do I apologize in advance, luckly it's only happened once for a kill team game, the guy didn't care, as it happens the mini that wasn't painted was also such an awesome build (it was a intercessor with a MK 3 helmet, the spiked pauldron and a combat knife in one hand, it's a fun agressive looking mini) my opponent thought it looked really cool, so I was glad I brought it. (the mini has since been painted)

which I suppose is worth noting for this argument, there is a midway point between "an army of all grey" and an army fully painted. everyone is buying new models for their army etc, so even those of us who strive for fully painted sometimes just don't get something finished in time but want to use it. it's hardly reasonable for example to refuse to play someone with a fully painted sisters army on sunday just because they're not painted their triumph yet

This is generally the approach that I take, I'll often play people who have 1 or 2 units yet to paint. When I fist got back to 8th ed I also played with a couple of units myself in the first couple of games.

It's just when I've come across a couple of people who never paint that I really don't get it. It looks a mess and it's harder to determine what models your playing against, especially in guard and ork armies.

 small_gods wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
speaking BTW for myself I absolutely prefer to paint my minis, I HATE showing up to a game with grey plastic, and if I do I apologize in advance, luckly it's only happened once for a kill team game, the guy didn't care, as it happens the mini that wasn't painted was also such an awesome build (it was a intercessor with a MK 3 helmet, the spiked pauldron and a combat knife in one hand, it's a fun agressive looking mini) my opponent thought it looked really cool, so I was glad I brought it. (the mini has since been painted)

which I suppose is worth noting for this argument, there is a midway point between "an army of all grey" and an army fully painted. everyone is buying new models for their army etc, so even those of us who strive for fully painted sometimes just don't get something finished in time but want to use it. it's hardly reasonable for example to refuse to play someone with a fully painted sisters army on sunday just because they're not painted their triumph yet

This is generally the approach that I take, I'll often play people who have 1 or 2 units yet to paint. When I fist got back to 8th ed I also played with a couple of units myself in the first couple of games.

It's just when I've come across a couple of people who never paint that I really don't get it. It looks a mess and it's harder to determine what models your playing against, especially in guard and ork armies.

I think it's a bit of a differance in mentality, one thing I'm seeing repeatedly is a bit of a trend of "when I was young I didn't bother painting and just wanted to play now that I'm older I'm more willing to paint" etc. I think ultimately it depends on your mentality to the game. for some people warhammer 40k is a game. and their point is playing the game. and thats all they want for it, and to them fielding a painted army means potentially months NOT playing the game This is proably especially true for the yougner crowd (at 35 6 months is nothing. at 15 6 months is a loong time)

meanwhile some people are hobbists they want/need those painted minis because for them the ultimate thrill is seeing those painted minis on the terrain etc.

BrianDavion wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
speaking BTW for myself I absolutely prefer to paint my minis, I HATE showing up to a game with grey plastic, and if I do I apologize in advance, luckly it's only happened once for a kill team game, the guy didn't care, as it happens the mini that wasn't painted was also such an awesome build (it was a intercessor with a MK 3 helmet, the spiked pauldron and a combat knife in one hand, it's a fun agressive looking mini) my opponent thought it looked really cool, so I was glad I brought it. (the mini has since been painted)

which I suppose is worth noting for this argument, there is a midway point between "an army of all grey" and an army fully painted. everyone is buying new models for their army etc, so even those of us who strive for fully painted sometimes just don't get something finished in time but want to use it. it's hardly reasonable for example to refuse to play someone with a fully painted sisters army on sunday just because they're not painted their triumph yet

This is generally the approach that I take, I'll often play people who have 1 or 2 units yet to paint. When I fist got back to 8th ed I also played with a couple of units myself in the first couple of games.

It's just when I've come across a couple of people who never paint that I really don't get it. It looks a mess and it's harder to determine what models your playing against, especially in guard and ork armies.

I think it's a bit of a differance in mentality, one thing I'm seeing repeatedly is a bit of a trend of "when I was young I didn't bother painting and just wanted to play now that I'm older I'm more willing to paint" etc. I think ultimately it depends on your mentality to the game. for some people warhammer 40k is a game. and their point is playing the game. and thats all they want for it, and to them fielding a painted army means potentially months NOT playing the game This is proably especially true for the yougner crowd (at 35 6 months is nothing. at 15 6 months is a loong time)

meanwhile some people are hobbists they want/need those painted minis because for them the ultimate thrill is seeing those painted minis on the terrain etc.

I definitely enjoy painting more now than ever before and at 34 I have space and patience to paint. I think if you can just basecoat an army you can get a lot out of it, even if you don't intend ever fully painting it.

I have also started to buy models just because they look good and not because I need to use them in a game. Just pucked up some heresy Alpha Legion headhunters because the models are cool.

 small_gods wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
speaking BTW for myself I absolutely prefer to paint my minis, I HATE showing up to a game with grey plastic, and if I do I apologize in advance, luckly it's only happened once for a kill team game, the guy didn't care, as it happens the mini that wasn't painted was also such an awesome build (it was a intercessor with a MK 3 helmet, the spiked pauldron and a combat knife in one hand, it's a fun agressive looking mini) my opponent thought it looked really cool, so I was glad I brought it. (the mini has since been painted)

which I suppose is worth noting for this argument, there is a midway point between "an army of all grey" and an army fully painted. everyone is buying new models for their army etc, so even those of us who strive for fully painted sometimes just don't get something finished in time but want to use it. it's hardly reasonable for example to refuse to play someone with a fully painted sisters army on sunday just because they're not painted their triumph yet

This is generally the approach that I take, I'll often play people who have 1 or 2 units yet to paint. When I fist got back to 8th ed I also played with a couple of units myself in the first couple of games.

It's just when I've come across a couple of people who never paint that I really don't get it. It looks a mess and it's harder to determine what models your playing against, especially in guard and ork armies.

I think it's a bit of a differance in mentality, one thing I'm seeing repeatedly is a bit of a trend of "when I was young I didn't bother painting and just wanted to play now that I'm older I'm more willing to paint" etc. I think ultimately it depends on your mentality to the game. for some people warhammer 40k is a game. and their point is playing the game. and thats all they want for it, and to them fielding a painted army means potentially months NOT playing the game This is proably especially true for the yougner crowd (at 35 6 months is nothing. at 15 6 months is a loong time)

meanwhile some people are hobbists they want/need those painted minis because for them the ultimate thrill is seeing those painted minis on the terrain etc.

I definitely enjoy painting more now than ever before and at 34 I have space and patience to paint. I think if you can just basecoat an army you can get a lot out of it, even if you don't intend ever fully painting it.

I have also started to buy models just because they look good and not because I need to use them in a game. Just pucked up some heresy Alpha Legion headhunters because the models are cool.

Yeah, I get that. I've heard of the whole "Game when young, hobby when old" happening quite a bit.

Really, this hobby is just a way to spend time doing something you enjoy. Whether it's gaming with fun people, painting on your own to make something cool, modeling with the other folk in the shop... To me, the only way to do the hobby WRONG is to not be having fun while doing it, or to crush someone else's fun.

Poll is kinda incomplete for me. I refuse to play an unpainted mini, but I could care less about playing against grey/primer hordes.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If that's a metric, someone spamming unpainted smasha guns is more committed to the hobby than someone with a lovingly painted set of dark Imperium primaris.

Which is simply not true. Money spent on commissioned paint jobs is ONE metric, not the totality of metrics. I even put that single metric into context in my post, but Jidmah chose to breeze past it.

Sorry, but I understood you perfectly. I just pointed out a massive flaw in your logic, which is that anyone with a fully painted army is automatically a better opponent and more invested hobbyist than someone with an unpainted or unfinished army.

Still incorrect. You are applying an "automatically" to my comments where there isn't one.

Look, I know one guy who is playing at the stores here who has beautiful painted models, he is always running the current top netlists, is a total horror to play against and doesn't even own a single pot of paint. I also know the woman who is building and painting all his stuff on commission, who is basically doing that full time whenever a new powerful army drops. Why does he paint those models? Because some events enforce painting standards, and while you're at it, you can also cash in on all the painting prizes.
If you tell me that guy is more invested into the hobby than anyone with grey models, you are just flat out wrong. You just like painted models and demonize everyone who doesn't have his army painted up to your standards.

You're doing the "automatic" thing again. I'd say your WAAC guy is still more invested than a someone who shows up with a grey plastic army cobbled together from hand-me-down starters, who doesn't know the rules, hasnt bought a codex, and who's been in that state for a year.

Likewise, some people just don't have the time/skill to paint, and getting it done by commission is totally fine.

Painted models is merely one signal among many that tell me about a player's commitment to the shared experience of the game. And all other variables being equal, a decently painted army is more enjoyable to play against than an unpainted one.

Maybe Im becoming one of those "Old Gamers" (Im 38 and have been playing minis wargames since I was 12 when 2nd edition was out). I don't see my guys as chess pieces, but art pieces that I game with.

Each of my armies have a story about why I am collecting those particular models. My latest undead skirmish project is a Death Knight who's forces are like a ghostly version of the Flesh Eater Court dementia -Chainrasps are former dungeon prisoners, banshee is a former mistress, ghouls are like his peasants. They are not chosen purely for mechanical benefit in the game. Each piece I add to the force is meant to be painted to show my cool ideas on the table -otherwise they are just the same as everybody elses stuff. They aren't treated like bland chess pieces; they are a way for me to show off my cool vision to another player across from me, so painting is a must.

As I've said before, I am willing to play with bare plastic, but it grates on my OCD to not be putting my best looking models on show.

The difference between miniatures wargaming and other gaming modes--board games, card games, tabletop RPGs, video games, indoor sports, etc--is that this is a crafting hobby with games attached to it. The player has to create not only their own set of models to play with, but additionally has to create the gaming field on which they play. It's what makes this experience unique in the gaming space.

And as many threads have observed at length, the ruleset of 40k is not even particularly well crafted among miniatures games. As a venue for "competitive" play it's laughably bad. This is why I find the "like the game, dislike the craft" mentality so alien. A person who doesn't want to paint their minis--who doesn't even value the aesthetics of a well crafted set of models--seems to be quixotically avoiding the larger part of the hobby. One may as well be playing with printed cardboard stand-ups, or with chits, or cards. GW has even released such games for this IP.

This causes me--uncharitably, I freely admit--to suspect that many people with janky, unpainted armies are concerned in becoming masters of the kiddy pool. Reading up on the latest meta and slapping together a netlist seems to be the low-effort way to climb to the top of a local tournent scene. That has been my experience, anyway: the most "competitive" players show up year after year with piles of unpainted crap, replacing them with newly unpainted crap whenever the meta shift forces them to do so.

I'm not claiming this is badwrongfun, or even that it's necessarily bad for the hobby. After all, the prize that Timmy earns is a store-credit chit that goes directly back into my local gaming store's coffers. And as a civilized and sportsmanlike player I will smile across the table at Timmy, accept my loss graciously, and shake his hand. But I'm judging him on the inside. I don't feel any kinship with Timmy. He's not interested in the same hobby I am. This isn't elitism, it's curmudgeon-ism.

Back when I was playing 40K Rogue Trader as a teenager I didn't paint, but I was still totally immersed in the hobby - buying WD, buying and reading rules, buying and building models, and playing regularly,

Since getting back into the hobby a couple of years ago, I now paint and read Black Library novels too. I really enjoy painting and have two WYSIWYG armies that I'm quite proud of, but I can understand that some people don't paint (and that doesn't make them any less into the hobby).

Clearly what we all mean is that the only way anyone can ever have actually fun with this game is to go all super try hard and use all RAW and have masterfully painted models on a beautiful artisan table and facing a foe who has written a personal bio (with portrait) for each of their air-brushed and the 4 layer hand-painted hive-spawn grunts on up.

/hyperbole

Oh wait, no, that's like telling someone you know their favorite food and they don't

In other news... beautiful terrain at a reasonable price

https://www.4groundpublishing.co.uk/index.php?route=common/28mmscifi

Can be found through other vendors too, usually at a small discount

good commission painters, you'll get what you pay for

https://www.flgpaintstudio.com/pricing

If people don't want to see every chapter run as Iron Hands or every Eldar run as Alaitoc we should be more strict with painting.

If the army is painted as a Chapter it must be played as that Chapter. Same for all other factions.

Well, it's what I have done for 25 years and have still enjoyed the complete hobby.

 Ishagu wrote:
If people don't want to see every chapter run as Iron Hands or every Eldar run as Alaitoc we should be more strict with painting.

If the army is painted as a Chapter it must be played as that Chapter. Same for all other factions.

That sounds awful. If I like red marines, I have to be BA? Or blue, I have to be Ultras? No, that’s gak.

Edit: If anything, it’d DISCOURAGE people from painting, so they aren’t stuck with one faction they don’t know if they like yet.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
If people don't want to see every chapter run as Iron Hands or every Eldar run as Alaitoc we should be more strict with painting.

If the army is painted as a Chapter it must be played as that Chapter. Same for all other factions.

That sounds awful. If I like red marines, I have to be BA? Or blue, I have to be Ultras? No, that’s gak.

Edit: If anything, it’d DISCOURAGE people from painting, so they aren’t stuck with one faction they don’t know if they like yet.

It would certainly make me less inclined to paint my minis.

 Octopoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
If people don't want to see every chapter run as Iron Hands or every Eldar run as Alaitoc we should be more strict with painting.

If the army is painted as a Chapter it must be played as that Chapter. Same for all other factions.

That sounds awful. If I like red marines, I have to be BA? Or blue, I have to be Ultras? No, that’s gak.

Edit: If anything, it’d DISCOURAGE people from painting, so they aren’t stuck with one faction they don’t know if they like yet.

It would certainly make me less inclined to paint my minis.

just paint a sucessor chapter. no one can prove your "Knights of Nii" are a blood angels or ultramarines sucessor.

Unless you bought and painted models under a different ruleset and your army has suddenly become illegal because you painted it. Meanwhile Knights of the Grey Plastic made of the the same models are still legal.

 Jidmah wrote:
Unless you bought and painted models under a different ruleset and your army has suddenly become illegal because you painted it. Meanwhile Knights of the Grey Plastic made of the the same models are still legal.

how does a paint job make your army illegal?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Unless you bought and painted models under a different ruleset and your army has suddenly become illegal because you painted it. Meanwhile Knights of the Grey Plastic made of the the same models are still legal.

how does a paint job make your army illegal?

If you’re forced to be a certain faction, that can make yours illegal.

Say I have Red Centurions-well, they can’t be Blood Angels. Tough tuckus if you like red and centurions.

..that would be a silly restriction entirely, even if non-canon schemes could take any ruleset.

that would take a bunch of schema off the table for those who actually want to paint the canon schemes if the gameplay interference bothered them.

worst case scenario you'd be fighting even more iron hands and other "OP" armies, but with the exact same scheme EVERYTIME. tables in sea's of only a few schemes would just be even worse, wouldn't it?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
If people don't want to see every chapter run as Iron Hands or every Eldar run as Alaitoc we should be more strict with painting.

If the army is painted as a Chapter it must be played as that Chapter. Same for all other factions.

That sounds awful. If I like red marines, I have to be BA? Or blue, I have to be Ultras? No, that’s gak.

Edit: If anything, it’d DISCOURAGE people from painting, so they aren’t stuck with one faction they don’t know if they like yet.

Yep, it is absolutely terrible stance.

 JNAProductions wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Unless you bought and painted models under a different ruleset and your army has suddenly become illegal because you painted it. Meanwhile Knights of the Grey Plastic made of the the same models are still legal.

how does a paint job make your army illegal?

If you’re forced to be a certain faction, that can make yours illegal.

Say I have Red Centurions-well, they can’t be Blood Angels. Tough tuckus if you like red and centurions.

ahh thought you where refering to my custom sucessor chapter scheme.

I agree though it's a bad idea. even my "just make up your own sucessor chapter" has some flaws to it. it's too easy to paint a scheme up that happens to be canon. or worse. you paint up a new army with your own custom scheme, GW drops a new codex and it turns out your colour scheme matches a brand new white scars sucessor detailed in the codex, suddenly everyone demands you use the white scar rules.

Hankovitch wrote:
He's not interested in the same hobby I am.

No he's not. He does share interest in the same game as you though.

I just don't like when people call non-painters lazy or scum, just because they don't find interest in the hobby side of 40K, don't have the resources to paint (usually time), or have to choose between painting and game time. It would be the same as calling people who don't read the 40K novels lazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
If people don't want to see every chapter run as Iron Hands or every Eldar run as Alaitoc we should be more strict with painting.

If the army is painted as a Chapter it must be played as that Chapter. Same for all other factions.

That sounds awful. If I like red marines, I have to be BA? Or blue, I have to be Ultras? No, that’s gak.

Edit: If anything, it’d DISCOURAGE people from painting, so they aren’t stuck with one faction they don’t know if they like yet.

Yep, it is absolutely terrible stance.

Agreed.

For me, it is a means to an end. If I could afford commission painting, it's all I'd have done.

 Lobukia wrote:
Clearly what we all mean is that the only way anyone can ever have actually fun with this game is to go all super try hard and use all RAW and have masterfully painted models on a beautiful artisan table and facing a foe who has written a personal bio (with portrait) for each of their air-brushed and the 4 layer hand-painted hive-spawn grunts on up.

/hyperbole

Oh wait, no, that's like telling someone you know their favorite food and they don't

Simply because a person enjoys something does not mean that thing is good. Simply because a person enjoys playing a game a certain way does not mean that is the most fulfilling, most enjoyable way for that person to play that game.

 Saber wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Clearly what we all mean is that the only way anyone can ever have actually fun with this game is to go all super try hard and use all RAW and have masterfully painted models on a beautiful artisan table and facing a foe who has written a personal bio (with portrait) for each of their air-brushed and the 4 layer hand-painted hive-spawn grunts on up.

/hyperbole

Oh wait, no, that's like telling someone you know their favorite food and they don't

Simply because a person enjoys something does not mean that thing is good. Simply because a person enjoys playing a game a certain way does not mean that is the most fulfilling, most enjoyable way for that person to play that game.

So, to all the people that have tried painting and found it not to their tastes... They're just wrong?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Saber wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Clearly what we all mean is that the only way anyone can ever have actually fun with this game is to go all super try hard and use all RAW and have masterfully painted models on a beautiful artisan table and facing a foe who has written a personal bio (with portrait) for each of their air-brushed and the 4 layer hand-painted hive-spawn grunts on up.

/hyperbole

Oh wait, no, that's like telling someone you know their favorite food and they don't

Simply because a person enjoys something does not mean that thing is good. Simply because a person enjoys playing a game a certain way does not mean that is the most fulfilling, most enjoyable way for that person to play that game.

So, to all the people that have tried painting and found it not to their tastes... They're just wrong?

Correct citizen. Now get back to your workstation before your heresy is reported.

Unfortunately it depends on the alignment of the stars. I could go for a spell where I can do _nothing_ but painting, followed by weeks of creative entropy broken only when the din of my primed models taunting me causes the cycle to repeat once more.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Unless you bought and painted models under a different ruleset and your army has suddenly become illegal because you painted it. Meanwhile Knights of the Grey Plastic made of the the same models are still legal.

how does a paint job make your army illegal?

Because in previous editions, running Ghazghkull Thrakka as Evil Suns, Eldrad Ulthran as Allaitoc, or Abaddon in a Red Corsairs army was no problem at all. If you painted them and you enforce paint = army tactics, those armies are illegal now. If they are unpainted, they can just switch their army tactics to match those characters.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Hankovitch wrote:
He's not interested in the same hobby I am.

No he's not. He does share interest in the same game as you though.

I just don't like when people call non-painters lazy or scum, just because they don't find interest in the hobby side of 40K, don't have the resources to paint (usually time), or have to choose between painting and game time. It would be the same as calling people who don't read the 40K novels lazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
If people don't want to see every chapter run as Iron Hands or every Eldar run as Alaitoc we should be more strict with painting.

If the army is painted as a Chapter it must be played as that Chapter. Same for all other factions.

That sounds awful. If I like red marines, I have to be BA? Or blue, I have to be Ultras? No, that’s gak.

Edit: If anything, it’d DISCOURAGE people from painting, so they aren’t stuck with one faction they don’t know if they like yet.

Yep, it is absolutely terrible stance.

Agreed.

These are fake concerns. There are very few people who have BA painted Centurions or an army that would no longer be playable if it was tied to the chapter it was painted as. And those affected are meta chasers trying to do it on the cheap.

People are whinging in topic after topic about having to play against Iron Hands of all colours, but when a clear and effective solution is offered they reject it. If you want to use the best rules for the the strongest chapter it's perfectly fine. How about you actually collect and paint it?

Forgive me for not caring one bit about the shortcuts you want to take in your quest for power gaming.

I spend faaaarrrrrr too much time painting toy soldiers.

Absolutely have to be dragged screaming to paint a room of our house though.....

Maybe I need to try a depiction of the Emperor confronting Horus on his battlebarge above Terra on the living room back wall....