How Important Is Painting To You?

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**Octopoid**

Crimson wrote:
Yeah, but if looks don't matter for you and just need gaming tokes you can just saw appropriately sized bits of plastic tube or something, glue them on the base and write 'space marine' on the side...

And some people do so. And [Warning: Unpopular Opinion Inbound] that's fine. Maybe people want to have the proper toys, maybe they don't. Maybe they want them painted but don't have the time, money, skill, etc. Maybe it's none of my business what someone else does.

Would I play against someone who just uses plastic tube? Maybe! Would you? Maybe not! That's your prerogative, play with whomever you want or don't. But I take it kind of personally (apparently) when people come on the internet and tell other people that they're Having Fun WRONG.

**Crimson**

Octopoid wrote:
But I take it kind of personally (apparently) when people come on the internet and tell other people that they're Having Fun WRONG.

As long as everybody is consenting and no one gets seriously hurt, no one is having fun wrong! They might be still doing miniature wargaming wrong though! Like once as kid I put four chess boards together and used several sets of chess pieces and played some weird made up game game this way with my friend. We had fun, but it still was objectively doing the chess wrong!

**Octopoid**

Crimson wrote:
Octopoid wrote:
But I take it kind of personally (apparently) when people come on the internet and tell other people that they're Having Fun WRONG.

As long as everybody is consenting and no one gets seriously hurt, no one is having fun wrong! They might be still doing miniature wargaming wrong though! Like once as kid I put four chess boards together and used several sets of chess pieces and played some weird made up game game this way with my friend. We had fun, but it still was objectively doing the chess wrong!

But were you even trying to do The Chess though? Fundamentally changing the rules of a game may be doing THAT GAME wrong, but playing a game with unpainted miniatures (or even with sticks and coins) isn't necessarily playing that game wrong, and even if it is, who cares? Let people have fun! Imagine if someone had come along to your "chess" game and said, "Hey, kid, you're doing chess wrong! You have to follow these rules!" Would you have really wanted to play chess more, or would that have just made you more inclined to play your game, and to hell with that guy?

**BrianDavion**

Karol wrote:
Crimson wrote:

I can't understand why anyone who viewed the models that way would be willing to pay the GW prices.

I bought a GK second hand army, at probably 1/3 its store price. Ton of people here buy recast models. Am not saying it is 100% of people, but I don't think many people think buying GW models at GW prices is a smart thing to do. Now when the avarge monthly salary is close to half what a 2000pts army costs. Also a lot of players are people who bought their armies when I was not even in school. the majority of players in my area as old as my dad.

So Karol, I'm just trying to figure something out, your only army is a used GK army you've purchased sometime after 6th edition launched, and you've not added anything to it?

**Vineheart01**

i'll never understand why people buy into this game if they hate painting.
Its more than half of the hobby to me, and its quite literally my passtime. I spend on average 2-3 hours a day assembling/painting, longer when i dont work that day, just because its what i have to do i enjoy doing that i can keep doing to pass the time.
Had it not been for the endless hours of contentment with a paintbrush i would not have felt fine paying thousands of dollars to plastic soldiers.
If you enjoy yourself w/o the painting aspect, by all means you do you. I just cant understand it, but my opinion is moot except for my own fun.

**Lance845**

Crimson wrote:
Yeah, but if looks don't matter for you and just need gaming tokes you can just saw appropriately sized bits of plastic tube or something, glue them on the base and write 'space marine' on the side...

**Vineheart01**

im not going to lie...thats pretty hilarious...

**Lance845**

The spru-crons seemed appropriate for the situation.

**Galas**

Thats like the shoulder pad space marine army. Great and alternative ways of making your army

Spoiler:

**Crimson**

Both of those actually take some effort and dedication. I can appreciate that!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Octopoid wrote:

But were you even trying to do The Chess though? Fundamentally changing the rules of a game may be doing THAT GAME wrong, but playing a game with unpainted miniatures (or even with sticks and coins) isn't necessarily playing that game wrong, and even if it is, who cares? Let people have fun! Imagine if someone had come along to your "chess" game and said, "Hey, kid, you're doing chess wrong! You have to follow these rules!" Would you have really wanted to play chess more, or would that have just made you more inclined to play your game, and to hell with that guy?

I knew how to play properly and if someone had pointed out that this is not how chess is played I'd have merely told them that I know instead of arguing with them how there actually can be many ways to play chess and who can really even say what chess is? And of course usually we played completely normally.

**Octopoid**

Crimson wrote:
Both of those actually take some effort and dedication. I can appreciate that!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Octopoid wrote:

But were you even trying to do The Chess though? Fundamentally changing the rules of a game may be doing THAT GAME wrong, but playing a game with unpainted miniatures (or even with sticks and coins) isn't necessarily playing that game wrong, and even if it is, who cares? Let people have fun! Imagine if someone had come along to your "chess" game and said, "Hey, kid, you're doing chess wrong! You have to follow these rules!" Would you have really wanted to play chess more, or would that have just made you more inclined to play your game, and to hell with that guy?

I knew how to play properly and if someone had pointed out that this is not how chess is played I'd have merely told them that I know instead of arguing with them how there actually can be many ways to play chess and who can really even say what chess is? And of course usually we played completely normally.

Which is what is being pointed out to you. I know how Warhammer 40K is played, usually I play it completely "normally," and there can actually be many ways to play Warhammer 40K, including with or without painted miniatures.

**Crimson**

Octopoid wrote:

Which is what is being pointed out to you. I know how Warhammer 40K is played, usually I play it completely "normally," and there can actually be many ways to play Warhammer 40K, including with or without painted miniatures.

Well, I have to consider playing with unpainted models 'wrong' way to play it, in the sense that is not how the manufacturer intended it to be played nor it is how long tradition of tabletop miniature wargames imply it should be played. How much one cares about his being a 'wrong' way to do it is another matter.

**Octopoid**

Crimson wrote:
Octopoid wrote:

Which is what is being pointed out to you. I know how Warhammer 40K is played, usually I play it completely "normally," and there can actually be many ways to play Warhammer 40K, including with or without painted miniatures.

Well, I have to consider playing with unpainted models 'wrong' way to play it, in the sense that is not how the manufacturer intended it to be played nor it is how long tradition of tabletop miniature wargames imply it should be played. How much one cares about his being a 'wrong' way to do it is another matter.

But you don't have to. There's nothing in the rules of the game that suggest painted miniatures are required, right, or wrong. You can choose not to consider playing with unpainted miniatures "wrong" if you want. The fact that you are choosing to consider it wrong is a choice, and one I find intolerant.

**Asmodai**

This thread seems pretty circular.

(Almost) No one really gives a feth if you play with unpainted models on your kitchen table and proxy the salt shaker as Abaddon.

Likewise, events and venues are free to establish standards such as "All models must be assembled, wysiwyg, painted to a minimum of 3 colours, coherent and based." and those rules are just as valid as the rules saying "All armies must be 2000 or less points, use the current version of Codexes and be Battleforged." DQ'ing a player at an event for using unpainted models is no more elitist than DQ'ing them for bringing a random assortment of Tau, Orks and Raven Guard.

If you don't like the rules, you don't have to play at the event or venue. If someone tells you how to play at home on your own table, you can tell them to screw off.

**Crimson**

Octopoid wrote:

But you don't have to. There's nothing in the rules of the game that suggest painted miniatures are required, right, or wrong. You can choose not to consider playing with unpainted miniatures "wrong" if you want. The fact that you are choosing to consider it wrong is a choice, and one I find intolerant.

I consider the larger context of tradition and convention, not merely the rules. Rules are only a part of wargaming. And BTW, it literally is part of AOS Player's Code, printed in the General's Handbook that you need to ask your opponents permission for using unpainted models. So intent is pretty clear and I agree with that intent. I wish they'd spell out it as plainly for 40K too. If you have problem with me thinking this... well, that really is not my problem.

**BrianDavion**

Crimson wrote:
Octopoid wrote:

Which is what is being pointed out to you. I know how Warhammer 40K is played, usually I play it completely "normally," and there can actually be many ways to play Warhammer 40K, including with or without painted miniatures.

Well, I have to consider playing with unpainted models 'wrong' way to play it, in the sense that is not how the manufacturer intended it to be played nor it is how long tradition of tabletop miniature wargames imply it should be played. How much one cares about his being a 'wrong' way to do it is another matter.

the fact that GW puts out starter sets such as Know no Fear in coloured plastic to allow one to Identify the sides easily without a paint job indicates that GW aaknowledges that not everyone plays with painted mini's (although it indicates they tend to assume the bulk of people who don't paint their minis are younger entry level players)

**Lance845**

Crimson wrote:
Octopoid wrote:

But you don't have to. There's nothing in the rules of the game that suggest painted miniatures are required, right, or wrong. You can choose not to consider playing with unpainted miniatures "wrong" if you want. The fact that you are choosing to consider it wrong is a choice, and one I find intolerant.

I consider the larger context of tradition and convention, not merely the rules. Rules are only a part of wargaming. And BTW, it literally is part of AOS Player's Code, printed in the General's Handbook that you need to ask your opponents permission for using unpainted models. So intent is pretty clear and I agree with that intent. I wish they'd spell out it as plainly for 40K too. If you have problem with me thinking this... well, that really is not my problem.

Correct me if I am wrong but

1) No rule in AoS has any bearing on the rules for 40k and vice versa

2) The General Handbook is full of all kinds of ridiculous joke rules about wearing tee shirts and doing other goofy gak impacting the game.

If so. The fact that the Generals handbook has a rule about asking permission about unpainted says what it is. A fething joke even to GW.

**Crimson**

Lance845 wrote:

1) No rule in AoS has any bearing on the rules for 40k and vice versa

It is really not a rule, it is more of a proper conduct and gaming etiquette thing. There is not such thing spelled out for 40K at all, but there is really not reason to think that it wouldn't generally reflect how GW intends their games to be approached. Also matches the larger wargaming tradition.

2) The General Handbook is full of all kinds of ridiculous joke rules about wearing tee shirts and doing other goofy gak impacting the game.

No.

If so. The fact that the Generals handbook has a rule about asking permission about unpainted rules says what it is. A fething joke even to GW.

No.

**Lance845**

Braying Warcry: Red-hot rage festers in
the savage minds of Wargors, their only
desire to rend and destroy. You can add 1
to all hit rolls made for a Wargor if, before
rolling the dice, you let loose a primal
warcry. Your warcry must use no actual
words, but angry grunts and raging snorts
are encouraged.

Ancient Dignity: Dragons are ancient and prideful creatures, and the Elves that
ride them are no less haughty, but from such nobility and dignity stems an inner
strength. If, during your entire hero phase, you can maintain a dignified (even
arrogant) composure and not smile, smirk or laugh regardless of your opponent's
antics, you may re-roll all hit rolls of 1 made for models in a Dragon Host until
your next hero phase.

The Grail Vow: You can re-roll all failed
hit rolls for this unit if, before rolling the
dice, you hold aloft a grail or goblet and
shout 'For the Lady' in a heroic voice.

Pride of the Reiksguard: Helborg's
skill is as legendary as his moustache is
magnificent. You can re-roll any failed hit
rolls when attacking with the Runefang
so long as you have a bigger and more
impressive moustache than your opponent.

Old Grumblers: In your hero phase,
you can complain about something in a
suitably Dwarfish manner. For example,
the hardships you endured when you were
younger, how the youth of today don't
respect their elders, how expensive beer
is etc. If you do, this unit of Longbeards
will join in and you can pick one of the
grumblings listed below. The effects last
until your next hero phase.

'I thought Dwarfs were made of
sterner stuff!': Roll a dice each time a
Dispossessed model from your army
flees whilst within 8" of this unit; on a 5
or more that model stands firm under the
Longbeards' stern gaze and does not flee.

'Who does this beardling think he is?':
Dispossessed Heroes from your army
within 8" of this unit in the hero phase can
use their command abilities even if they
are not your general.

'Goblins are weedier these days!': You can
re-roll wound rolls of 1 for Dispossessed
models from your army that are within
8" of this unit when they attack in the
combat phase.

The Mad Count: Marius Leitdorf is an
exceptional swordsman, even if he is totally
insane. If, during your hero phase, you
pretend to ride an imaginary horse, you
can re-roll failed hit rolls for the Averland
Runefang until your next hero phase. If
you actually talk to your imaginary horse
you can re-roll failed wound rolls as well.

Underground Scuttlers: Instead of setting
up a Tomb Swarm on the battlefield, you
can place them to one side and say that
they are set up beneath the ground. In any
of your movement phases, you can set the
unit up on the battlefield more than 9"
from any enemy models. This is the unit's
move for that movement phase. The
unit can burrow back underground in
any of your future movement phases.
If it does, remove the unit from the
battlefield - it can return in a later turn as
described above.

If you have many fewer units in your army than an opponent, you can choose to instantly win the game if your army survives for six turns. As your army, take a a couple of tomb swarms and burrow them forever. Wait six turns... win.

Bloodwrack Stare: When making a
Bloodwrack Stare attack, pick a visible
unit within range and roll a dice for each
model in that unit; for each roll of 6 or
more that unit suffers a mortal wound as
they foolishly meet the Medusa's deadly
gaze. You can add 1 to these dice rolls if,
between the time you declare the target of
the attack and time you roll the dice, your
opponent looks you directly in the eye.

These are the rules of AoS.

They are a joke.

**Crimson**

Those are ancient rules from the first edition legacy PDFs, current rules do not have those, nor do these rules have anything to do with General's Handbook, or the topic in any way. Please, stop embarrassing yourself, your argument is more crazy than the Mad Count.

**Lance845**

Crimson wrote:
Those are ancient rules from the first edition legacy PDFs, current rules do not have those, nor do these rules have anything to do with General's Handbook, or the topic in any way. Please, stop embarrassing yourself, your argument is more crazy than the Mad Count.

No, trying to reference a "rule" from a game we are not talking about has nothing to do with the topic in any way.

**Crimson**

Lance845 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Those are ancient rules from the first edition legacy PDFs, current rules do not have those, nor do these rules have anything to do with General's Handbook, or the topic in any way. Please, stop embarrassing yourself, your argument is more crazy than the Mad Count.

No, trying to reference a "rule" from a game we are not talking about has nothing to do with the topic in any way.

It has if you can understand context, convention, intent, gaming etiquette and tradition.

**Lance845**

Crimson wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Those are ancient rules from the first edition legacy PDFs, current rules do not have those, nor do these rules have anything to do with General's Handbook, or the topic in any way. Please, stop embarrassing yourself, your argument is more crazy than the Mad Count.

No, trying to reference a "rule" from a game we are not talking about has nothing to do with the topic in any way.

It has if you can understand context, convention, intent, gaming etiquette and tradition.

Tradition is meaningless. It's the worst reason to do anything. Up until the last 100 years women traditionally had less rights then men.

Gaming Etiquette has to do with being a good opponent. Which involves following the rules. Of which there are none for painting.

Intent is debatable at best and meaningless at worst.

Who's conventions?

I get the context you are TRYING to build between what a AoS book says and what 40k is but again there is no actual connection and so your "context" is meaningless.

**Crimson**

Of course there is a connection. And the gaming etiquette GW expects for AOS is clearly spelled out and it would be crazy to think that this would not reflect their attitude at large. Or do you also think it is OK to use offensive language when playing 40K, because unlike for AOS they didn't explicitly specify that it is not cool?

**JNAProductions**

Crimson wrote:
Of course there is a connection. And the gaming etiquette GW expects for AOS is clearly spelled out and it would be crazy to think that this would not reflect their attitude at large. Or do you also think it is OK to use offensive language when playing 40K, because unlike for AOS they didn't explicitly specify that it is not cool?

Depends on the language and company. If I'm with friends and I drop an f-bomb, no one cares. If I'm playing an eight year old kid, though, that's inappropriate.

Likewise, if I'm playing with my friends, I'm free to do so with unpainted models, because they're not exacting gatekeepers who refuse to play grey plastic. If I go to a tournament, though, I should expect to be disqualified from it, assuming it's like most and has a painting requirement.

**Lance845**

Crimson wrote:
Of course there is connection. And the gaming etiquette GW expects for AOS is clearly spelled out and it would be crazy to think that this would not reflect their attitude at large. Or do you also think it is OK to use offensive language when playing 40K, because unlike for AOS they explicitly didn't specify that it is not cool?

No. There is no connection. You just WANT there to be a connection because you rely on things like "tradition" as an argument for why people should do things. GWs Etiquette is spelled out clearly in "The Most Important Rule"

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE

In a game as detailed and wide ranging as Warhammer 40,000, there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!). If no single solution presents itself, you and your opponent should roll off, and whoever rolls highest gets to choose what happens. Then you can get on with the fighting

Which can be summarized as have fun playing and be fair.

What would be crazy is to assume that anything in any document related to Arkham Horror impacts a game of Twilight Imperium because they are both made by Fantasy Flights.

As an adult I use whatever language I feel like whenever I feel like it.

**Crimson**

TMIR has nothing to do with etiquette, it is about resolving unclear situations.

**Charistoph**

I remember as a kid, my brother and I didn't have all the fancy toys our friends had. Heck, sometimes we didn't have ANY of the toys of a world we wanted to play in.

So we took what we had and made stuff up.

We played with guys from GI Joe, Transformers, MASC, Visionaries, and Captain Power. Sometimes I would take some of their gear and mix them up with my model planes to pretend a variant of spaceships ala BSG, Star Wars or Star Trek.

And we had fun.

It is more important to have a good time than having toys set up properly.

**JNAProductions**

Crimson wrote:
TMIR has nothing to do with etiquette, it is about resolving unclear situations.

So, we should apply rules from ANOTHER GAME to 40k, but we shouldn't apply a big part of TMIR...

apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!).

To the system it's a part of?

Right...

**Crimson**

JNAProductions wrote:
Crimson wrote:
TMIR has nothing to do with etiquette, it is about resolving unclear situations.
So, we should apply rules from ANOTHER GAME to 40k, but we shouldn't apply a big part of TMIR...

apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!).
To the system it's a part of?

Right...

The AOS thing really isn't a rule, TMIR is. They're not comparable, they're not about same thing. I only mentioned the AOS etiquette in attempt to illustrate the mindset, attitude and intent of the GW writers, but as people seem to be unable to grasp that things other than rules can exist, this has devolved into some sort of bizarre BCBish rules lawyering.