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I think most people accept the cost and time of painting as part of the hobby. I’m actually surprised at how many people consider it otherwise.

phillv85 wrote:
I think most people accept the cost and time of painting as part of the hobby. I’m actually surprised at how many people consider it otherwise.

I don't think I claimed it wasn't a part of the hobby. I claimed it wasn't part of the game which is a whole other can of worms. Painting is a great and intricate and rewarding part of the hobby. It should not be mandatory for people to be able to play the game.

I was responding to Karol. I also didn’t mention anything about the game in that post, so not sure what you’re getting at?

phillv85 wrote:
I was responding to Karol. I also didn’t mention anything about the game in that post, so not sure what you’re getting at?

I'm saying, and if I'm out of line someone correct me, that I don't think people in general on this forum are making the argument you were refuting. I think the claim "Painting is not a part of the hobby" has not been made, though if I overlooked that argument, please let me know. People have been saying "Painting should not be a mandatory part of playing Warhammer 40K."

Does that make sense?

It does, but I was responding to Karol in the post that is right before my original one. Karol said:

Ask how many people are willing to pay for paints and invest the hours to paint the army, and your going to get less people happy about painted armies.

To which I said “I think most people accept..... etc.”

phillv85 wrote:
It does, but I was responding to Karol in the post that is right before my original one. Karol said:

Ask how many people are willing to pay for paints and invest the hours to paint the army, and your going to get less people happy about painted armies.

To which I said “I think most people accept..... etc.”

Right, but even then, Karol (and Karol is free to correct me) is not specifically talking about only the hobby aspect, but about the price/time/energy/skill/resources barrier to playing the game aspect if painted armies were mandatory.

 Octopoid wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
It does, but I was responding to Karol in the post that is right before my original one. Karol said:

Ask how many people are willing to pay for paints and invest the hours to paint the army, and your going to get less people happy about painted armies.

To which I said “I think most people accept..... etc.”

Right, but even then, Karol (and Karol is free to correct me) is not specifically talking about only the hobby aspect, but about the price/time/energy/skill/resources barrier to playing the game aspect if painted armies were mandatory.

I’d have to go digging back through the thread, but some comments Karol made earlier made me read it as if the hobby as a broader thing shouldn’t require the cost of paints etc. I guess it comes down to what people view as ‘the hobby’. In the traditional sense it encompasses all aspects, but every person has their own view and opinion.

phillv85 wrote:
In the traditional sense it encompasses all aspects

Hmmm, I'd have to see a citation for this claim. I think traditionally, Warhammer 40K has always been somewhat divided between the "hobby" meaning painting, building, cleaning, modeling, etc. and playing the game. Now, there's a lot of people who do both, and that's great! But I don't think either one is specifically required to enjoy Warhammer 40K (or any minis game). Nor should they be. I mean, there are people who just buy minis to assemble and paint them. Why aren't they called out for "missing out" on half the hobby?

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I’d disagree with your view on what ‘the hobby’ is. To me it’s the whole get your models, build them, paint them, pay through the nose for some rules, build your list and play with them. Like I say, everyone has different views and opinions. Perhaps it’s even a cultural thing and us Brits see it as all encompassing where others don’t.

 Octopoid wrote:

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.

phillv85 wrote:
I’d disagree with your view on what ‘the hobby’ is. To me it’s the whole get your models, build them, paint them, pay through the nose for some rules, build your list and play with them.

So, you'd be just as unhappy with someone who played using unpainted models as you would with someone who just bought and painted the models, but never played the game?

phillv85 wrote:I’d disagree with your view on what ‘the hobby’ is. To me it’s the whole get your models, build them, paint them, pay through the nose for some rules, build your list and play with them. Like I say, everyone has different views and opinions. Perhaps it’s even a cultural thing and us Brits see it as all encompassing where others don’t.

Building and painting can be two different hobbies on their own, or they can be part of a hobby all together. A lot depends on what the desires of the individual are.

Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.

I know of many people who hate the game because the rules are trash. But they enjoy the lore, the building, and the painting. They'll buy Characters just to build them and paint them. Some build and paint models just to sell them without ever playing with them, having received all the joy from it they desire.

The individual is the one who defines their hobby, not someone else.

 Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.

So, let me pose you the same question I asked above. If you sat down to play against someone and they pulled out an all-grey-plastic army, would you be EXACTLY as upset as if you saw someone painting a BEAUTIFUL masterpiece miniature, and then found out they don't play the game?

 Octopoid wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I’d disagree with your view on what ‘the hobby’ is. To me it’s the whole get your models, build them, paint them, pay through the nose for some rules, build your list and play with them.

So, you'd be just as unhappy with someone who played using unpainted models as you would with someone who just bought and painted the models, but never played the game?

That’s quite an assumption to jump to. I just stated my view of the hobby because you have a different view. I’m equally zen about whatever anyone wants to do with their models, they can smear them in faeces if that’s their schtick. I hobby how I hobby, and everyone else can hobby how they hobby. As a personal preference I would play against someone with painted models, but i’m not going to kick off if people don’t.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

phillv85 wrote:I’d disagree with your view on what ‘the hobby’ is. To me it’s the whole get your models, build them, paint them, pay through the nose for some rules, build your list and play with them. Like I say, everyone has different views and opinions. Perhaps it’s even a cultural thing and us Brits see it as all encompassing where others don’t.

Building and painting can be two different hobbies on their own, or they can be part of a hobby all together. A lot depends on what the desires of the individual are.

I know, that’s what I said.

phillv85 wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I’d disagree with your view on what ‘the hobby’ is. To me it’s the whole get your models, build them, paint them, pay through the nose for some rules, build your list and play with them.

So, you'd be just as unhappy with someone who played using unpainted models as you would with someone who just bought and painted the models, but never played the game?

That’s quite an assumption to jump to. I just stated my view of the hobby because you have a different view. I’m equally zen about whatever anyone wants to do with their models, they can smear them in faeces if that’s their schtick. I hobby how I hobby, and everyone else can hobby how they hobby. As a personal preference I would play against someone with painted models, but i’m not going to kick off if people don’t.

So, yes, you WOULD be equally upset, and that amount of upset is "none or next to none." That's fine. I personally agree with your opinion, regarding what people do with their models. I just think that people's opinions regarding model painting being mandatory are elitist, gate-keeping, and hurt the community.

Glad you don't fall into that category!

 Octopoid wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.

So, let me pose you the same question I asked above. If you sat down to play against someone and they pulled out an all-grey-plastic army, would you be EXACTLY as upset as if you saw someone painting a BEAUTIFUL masterpiece miniature, and then found out they don't play the game?

No, I wouldn't, because the latter doesn't involve other people.

 Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.

So, let me pose you the same question I asked above. If you sat down to play against someone and they pulled out an all-grey-plastic army, would you be EXACTLY as upset as if you saw someone painting a BEAUTIFUL masterpiece miniature, and then found out they don't play the game?

No, I wouldn't, because the latter doesn't involve other people.

Ah, that's the hill you want to die on; let me reiterate my previous point, then. If you're so all-fired upset about me using bare plastic minis, you paint them. In other words, you refusing to play me because I don't have the time, resources, etc. to paint (including willingness!) - that's on you, not me. If you want to gate-keep and prevent people from having fun playing the game just because they don't hobby the same way you do, and then claim it's because THEY'RE ruining YOUR fun, you should do some soul-searching and see which one of the two of you is really preventing you from having fun.

Personally i see the "hobby" as built on 4 pillars.

The fluff

The models

The painting

The game.

Each individual is free to participate or not to whatever extent they see fit in each of the pillars. I dont need to read the novels to paint my models. And i dont need to paint the models to play the game. And i dont need to play the game to make some awesome kit bash conversions to submit to golden deamon.

The issue, the ONLY issue, i see is that some painters like to push their pillar onto the others.

Also, sure it does involve other people! Other people are either enjoying (or not enjoying) the painted miniatures, and other people are being deprived (or not) of a potential opponent, one whose miniatures enhance the play experience! By all rights, you should be just as upset at them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Personally i see the "hobby" as built on 4 pillars.

The fluff

The models

The painting

The game.

Each individual is free to participate or not to whatever extent they see fit in each of the pillars. I dont need to read the novels to paint my models. And i dont need to paint the models to play the game. And i dont need to play the game to make some awesome kit bash conversions to submit to golden deamon.

The issue, the ONLY issue i see is that some painters like to push their pillar onto the others.

Have an Exalt!

 Octopoid wrote:

Ah, that's the hill you want to die on; let me reiterate my previous point, then. If you're so all-fired upset about me using bare plastic minis, you paint them. In other words, you refusing to play me because I don't have the time, resources, etc. to paint (including willingness!) - that's on you, not me. If you want to gate-keep and prevent people from having fun playing the game just because they don't hobby the same way you do, and then claim it's because THEY'RE ruining YOUR fun, you should do some soul-searching and see which one of the two of you is really preventing you from having fun.

I am not upset, I just don't want to look at your unpainted models, as it ruins the visual spectacle, and possibly indicates to me that you're not taking the hobby seriously and you have no intention of respecting the wargaming traditions or your opponents. Fortunately at least here in Europe most people tend to paint their models, so it is not difficult to find an opponent with a proper army.

What you're talking about is like showing up to a LARP without an appropriate costume. It is not how it is supposed to be done and it is disrespectful towards your fellow players who put in effort to do the thing properly.

 Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

Ah, that's the hill you want to die on; let me reiterate my previous point, then. If you're so all-fired upset about me using bare plastic minis, you paint them. In other words, you refusing to play me because I don't have the time, resources, etc. to paint (including willingness!) - that's on you, not me. If you want to gate-keep and prevent people from having fun playing the game just because they don't hobby the same way you do, and then claim it's because THEY'RE ruining YOUR fun, you should do some soul-searching and see which one of the two of you is really preventing you from having fun.

I am not upset, I just don't want to look at your unpainted models, as it ruins the visual spectacle, and possibly indicates to me that you're not taking the hobby seriously and you have no intention of respecting the wargaming traditions or your opponents. Fortunately at least here in Europe most people tend to paint their models, so it is not difficult to find an opponent with a proper army.

What you're talking about is like showing up to a LARP without an appropriate costume. It is not how it is supposed to be done and it is disrespectful towards your fellow players who put in effort to do the thing properly.

Sounds like you're a little upset. It's not disrespectful for a person to enjoy part of a hobby but not "traditionally" all of it. It IS disrespectful for you to say things like, "I don't want to look at your unpainted models," because you don't know why they're unpainted, and frankly, it doesn't matter why.

As I said elsewhere, I'd rather play a game against someone using nuts, bolts, and coins to represent their models than someone who says, "I won't play against unpainted models." At the end of the day, by choosing not to play against me, you're doing me a solid. So... thanks?

EDIT: As for your LARP comment, I have NEVER been to a LARP where costumes were required, or even looked at as a positive thing. Rather, the LARPs I have attended have welcomed new players with open arms, made them feel like a part of the group, and so have grown and had more fun. It sounds like the LARPs you've been to would be more... elitist.

 Octopoid wrote:

Sounds like you're a little upset. It's not disrespectful for a person to enjoy part of a hobby but not "traditionally" all of it.

It is disrespectful in a social situation to not at least attempt to follow the mores commonly associated with said a situation. This is literally how etiquette works in all human interaction.

It IS disrespectful for you to say things like, "I don't want to look at your unpainted models," because you don't know why they're unpainted, and frankly, it doesn't matter why.

Yes, I understand that you find having standards offensive. Also, I obviously wouldn't say it that way, and probably at all, to someone in real life. But this is a thread specifically for expressing out opinion on this topic, so it would be counterproductive for me to not do so candidly.

As I said elsewhere, I'd rather play a game against someone using nuts, bolts, and coins to represent their models than someone who says, "I won't play against unpainted models." At the end of the day, by choosing not to play against me, you're doing me a solid. So... thanks?

At least that is sorted then!

EDIT: As for your LARP comment, I have NEVER been to a LARP where costumes were required, or even looked at as a positive thing. Rather, the LARPs I have attended have welcomed new players with open arms, made them feel like a part of the group, and so have grown and had more fun. It sounds like the LARPs you've been to would be more... elitist.

It obviously depends on the type of LARP what level of costuming is required. Fantasy/medieval naturally need much more than modern/near-modern ones. And the thing to do with new players is to run workshops and lend them items and help them otherwise with their costuming (and any other aspect they might require help with.) It is a group effort to make the game as amazing as it can be.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, I understand that you find having standards offensive.

Hah!

The only standard that matters in the game is good sportsmanship.

 Lance845 wrote:
The only standard that matters in the game is good sportsmanship.

Have another exalt!

 Octopoid wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.

So, let me pose you the same question I asked above. If you sat down to play against someone and they pulled out an all-grey-plastic army, would you be EXACTLY as upset as if you saw someone painting a BEAUTIFUL masterpiece miniature, and then found out they don't play the game?

Is this a fair comparison at all? Playing is a shared experience, when I paint a masterpiece you don't have to look at or even know. When you bring your unpainted stuff it lessens the game for for the other player and people who watch if you're in such a setting. Nothing here is mandatory, your army just looks bad when you do it. It's not unreasonable to decline games with somebody who doesn't paint the same way it is for someone who proxies or anything else undesirable. Feel free to play whoever for whatever reason and have a crappy looking army while doing it.

 Irkjoe wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.

So, let me pose you the same question I asked above. If you sat down to play against someone and they pulled out an all-grey-plastic army, would you be EXACTLY as upset as if you saw someone painting a BEAUTIFUL masterpiece miniature, and then found out they don't play the game?

Is this a fair comparison at all? Playing is a shared experience, when I paint a masterpiece you don't have to look at or even know. When you bring your unpainted stuff it lessens the game for for the other player and people who watch if you're in such a setting. Nothing here is mandatory, your army just looks bad when you do it. It's not unreasonable to decline games with somebody who doesn't paint the same way it is for someone who proxies or anything else undesirable. Feel free to play whoever for whatever reason and have a crappy looking army while doing it.

See, NOW you're being elitist. YOU think it's crappy-looking. I think it looks fine. Which of our opinions is more likely to bridge gaps and welcome new players into a healthy community?

EDIT- Not bothering. Not worth the fight.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.

I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.

So, let me pose you the same question I asked above. If you sat down to play against someone and they pulled out an all-grey-plastic army, would you be EXACTLY as upset as if you saw someone painting a BEAUTIFUL masterpiece miniature, and then found out they don't play the game?

Is this a fair comparison at all? Playing is a shared experience, when I paint a masterpiece you don't have to look at or even know. When you bring your unpainted stuff it lessens the game for for the other player and people who watch if you're in such a setting. Nothing here is mandatory, your army just looks bad when you do it. It's not unreasonable to decline games with somebody who doesn't paint the same way it is for someone who proxies or anything else undesirable. Feel free to play whoever for whatever reason and have a crappy looking army while doing it.

See, NOW you're being elitist. YOU think it's crappy-looking. I think it looks fine. Which of our opinions is more likely to bridge gaps and welcome new players into a healthy community?

There is a significant difference between a hypothetical new player and you, who has been playing for the last decade and a half and still hasn't made any painting progress on said army.

So now you're only being elitist to me? Great, thanks!

EDIT: To post a more useful and productive comment, how do you determine when someone is no longer a "new" player? How long can I go without painting my minis before I'm not worthy of playing the game? In fact, who are you to decide who is and isn't worthy? Do you have some magical, omniscient paint-o-meter that can look at two players, both with the same unpainted army, and say, "Huh, that one's been playing Too Long for me to approve of that"?

Your position is elitist gate-keeping, and I will rail against it to my dying day.

Not everyone has time/will/resources etc. etc. to paint.
Everyone sane understands that everyone has their own shtick.. And at the end of the day nobody really gives a damn..

But...

Lets imagine we have an infinity gauntlet and we snap our fingers and puff! Every grey plastic horde out there turns into solid table top standard army painted to users imagining…

Lets not kid ourselves, who would not want that to happen ?