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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Look, all I'm doing is telling you to stop being in denial of what you're doing. Own up to it.

I openly and happily gatekeep my private time, my gaming groups, and pretty much every aspect of my life that is a matter of personal choice unless I am inable to do so or it is not my right to do so.

I have absolutely zero regrets doing so. Strict gatekeeping, especially with my recreational activities, has made all of my hobbies much more interesting and pleasant.

There will be plenty of people out there that will disagree with this statement but ultimately you're not wrong and it's your hobby. Outside of tournaments no one should ever feel forced to play against someone or allocate an afternoon to something that will not be enjoyable.

I've got a young family and I've found my free hobby time become increasingly smaller as time passes, whilst I'm sure this will improve later down the track but for now I find myself being more selective myself over who I play and what I'm looking for out of a game.

In my opinion, someone who doesn't know his army well, needs to look at the codex all the time and doesn't know basic tactics of his army is just as bad as someone with a half-painted army.

Someone who is not fully invested in playing WH40k should not buy and paint any models. All four columns of the hobby are equally important.

Funny how it sounds like hyperbole when you just switch gaming and painting, right?

 Lance845 wrote:
Games are, by their nature, an inclusive activity. Games are more or less little engines designed to produce good times. Communities that crop up around games are breeding grounds for one of the purest best things in the world. People just having a good time with each other.

Are you saying that you think if there's a standard for something optional and someone wants to be included, that standard of a majority should be dropped to include that one person rather than that person rise to the standard required?

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, when is this game death apocalypse supposed to happen?

Most people still paint their models, there is spectacle to be had and it attracts the new players. So it is not happening now.

You can of course go into your reality denial mode, but seriously, try actually observing it. If in a game store there are two tables, on one people play with their grey hordes that are missing bits, using cardboard boxes as terrain and on another there are painted models fighting over a carefully crafted and painted terrain, which game will attract more spectators? Which will attract more people asking about the game? We all know the answer.

 Lance845 wrote:

Spoiler:

Again,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance



So... you're wrong.

Ah, a political cartoon. Basically, a "I can't argue my point" card. Declined.

Answer the question- do you allow all of the things I mentioned? Not all of them, or even half of them are 'Nazis' so don't be lazy, do the thinking. Speak like a grownup and use your words.

You cannot prevent anyone from purchasing a product and using it. You cannot restrict their constitutionally protected rights to be somewhere. You cannot override the owner or proprietor of a private establishment and determine who is allowed there. Even if they are a Nazi, you can do nothing.

You know what you can do?

You can prevent someone from playing with you. You can prevent yourself from being involved in activities they are a part of. All you have to do is say 'no'. Go somewhere else. Tell others why you are doing so, and let them make their own decisions.

This is called 'gatekeeping' and it's why your D&D group doesn't have Johnny Rapejoke.

 Crimson wrote:
You can of course go into your reality denial mode, but seriously, try actually observing it. If in a game store there are two tables, on one people play with their grey hordes that are missing bits, using cardboard boxes as terrain and on another there are painted models fighting over a carefully crafted and painted terrain, which game will attract more spectators? Which will attract more people asking about the game? We all know the answer.

Usually the two guys having fun.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

There will be plenty of people out there that will disagree with this statement but ultimately you're not wrong and it's your hobby. Outside of tournaments no one should ever feel forced to play against someone or allocate an afternoon to something that will not be enjoyable.

I've got a young family and I've found my free hobby time become increasingly smaller as time passes, whilst I'm sure this will improve later down the track but for now I find myself being more selective myself over who I play and what I'm looking for out of a game.

You've got children it seems, and I can tell you- if you intend to involve your children in your hobbies it is very, very wise to be selective of where you play and who you play with. Kudos to you, I hope you get more free time to enjoy your hobby.

May your children never ask for Tau.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Spoiler:

Again,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance



So... you're wrong.

Ah, a political cartoon. Basically, a "I can't argue my point" card. Declined.

I started with posting the wiki article on the subject, but I thought you might grasp it better with pictures.

Answer the question- do you allow all of the things I mentioned? Not all of them, or even half of them are 'Nazis' so don't be lazy, do the thinking. Speak like a grownup and use your words.

You cannot prevent anyone from purchasing a product and using it. You cannot restrict their constitutionally protected rights to be somewhere. You cannot override the owner or proprietor of a private establishment and determine who is allowed there. Even if they are a Nazi, you can do nothing.

You know what you can do?

You can prevent someone from playing with you. You can prevent yourself from being involved in activities they are a part of. All you have to do is say 'no'. Go somewhere else. Tell others why you are doing so, and let them make their own decisions.

This is called 'gatekeeping' and it's why your D&D group doesn't have Johnny Rapejoke.

Can you really not understand the difference between not tolerating toxic elements in your community and the attitudes of those toxic members?

 Lance845 wrote:
I started with posting the wiki article on the subject, but I thought you might grasp it better with pictures.

I'm not the target audience for that cartoon, it was made to reassure people who are incapable of determining their associations like adults. Real grownups can deal with anything another human being says. Cowards and weaklings need words to be 'outside the law' so their fragile feelings can be protected.

 Lance845 wrote:
Can you really not understand the difference between not tolerating toxic elements in your community and the attitudes of those toxic members?

And who gets to decide what's toxic?

Remember, bacteria would say that soap is toxic.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, when is this game death apocalypse supposed to happen?

Most people still paint their models, there is spectacle to be had and it attracts the new players. So it is not happening now.

You can of course go into your reality denial mode, but seriously, try actually observing it. If in a game store there are two tables, on one people play with their grey hordes that are missing bits, using cardboard boxes as terrain and on another there are painted models fighting over a carefully crafted and painted terrain, which game will attract more spectators? Which will attract more people asking about the game? We all know the answer.

It's not happening to gw but see privateer press.

 Lance845 wrote:

Again,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

So... you're wrong.

I say this as politely as I can. Don't. Just fething don't. I understand perfectly well the concept you're referring to, it is superbly important. And trying to apply it to fething miniature games is bloody insulting! Not to me, not to the gamers in general, but to people who are suffering from actual oppression. I would like to say more, but as I promised to be polite I can't.

 Crimson wrote:
I say this as politely as I can. Don't. Just fething don't. I understand perfectly well the concept you're referring to, it is superbly important. And trying to apply it to fething miniature games is bloody insulting! Not to me, not to the gamers in general, but to people who are suffering from actual oppression. I would like to say more, but as I promised to be polite I can't.

While we may disagree at one point, you're not entirely wrong in your outrage here.

Well, I don't want to play against unpainted models.

I have a knee injury, so is the goose-stepping a requirement, or is it just understood I do that in my spare time?

The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

 Lance845 wrote:
The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

That seems a bit non inclusive...

Almost.. like... a double standard.. :O

 Lance845 wrote:
The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

WRONG.

Products are inclusive. Establishments are inclusive, until the posted rules are broken. My time is not open source free-for-all. Protecting my time, freely determining my association is my own right. If people do not like it, then fewer people will play with me. If my standards are unpopular, my recreation options will be limited. It will sort itself out.

 Lance845 wrote:
I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

WRONG.

You have as much right to demand 'all inclusive' access to my recreation time as you do my romantic life. I am 100% entitled to my own preferences and association. Demanding I change that is toxic, and several other adjectives that get red-lettered.

 Lance845 wrote:
You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

WRONG.

You do not speak for "the community" or any community for that matter. You have no right to demand I do this. You CAN speak for yourself, which is fine. That is your right.

If you cannot accept this, then perhaps it is you who should keep away and do some self-reflection.

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

That seems a bit non inclusive...

Then you don't understand the philosophy. Go read the comic or dig into the wiki until you get it.

 Lance845 wrote:
The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

If you don't want toxic elements in your gaming community you probably should start by removing yourself.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, when is this game death apocalypse supposed to happen?

Most people still paint their models, there is spectacle to be had and it attracts the new players. So it is not happening now.

You can of course go into your reality denial mode, but seriously, try actually observing it. If in a game store there are two tables, on one people play with their grey hordes that are missing bits, using cardboard boxes as terrain and on another there are painted models fighting over a carefully crafted and painted terrain, which game will attract more spectators? Which will attract more people asking about the game? We all know the answer.

Most isn't all, I've seen more players start over enthusatic games than over painted armies, and yes, it's been happening for decades.

The only one denying reality here is you. I have observed it, my entire arguement is based on the observations of myself and others.

Which will attract more people? The one that's having the more dynamic game. Paint rarely factors into it. The one having the good time, or is displaying nail biting play will draw the crowds.

We do know the answer. It's enthusiastic and inclusive play.

 Lance845 wrote:
Then you don't understand the philosophy. Go read the comic or dig into the wiki until you get it.

WRONG.

Everyone understands it. It wasn't complicated.

It was just dumb.

And WRONG.

 Crimson wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

If you don't want toxic elements in your gaming community you probably should start by removing yourself.

You should follow your own advice.

 Lance845 wrote:
The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

You can write off anything as gatekeeping like this. You're gatekeeping me out by not playing my token proxies. Oh it's in the rules that I must use models? That's gw kool aid!

 Lance845 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

That seems a bit non inclusive...

Then you don't understand the philosophy. Go read the comic or dig into the wiki until you get it.

You don't understand life. Go live some and stop digging through wiki and comics until you do...

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive. And I want them to be all inclusive. And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".

WRONG.

Products are inclusive. Establishments are inclusive, until the posted rules are broken. My time is not open source free-for-all. Protecting my time, freely determining my association is my own right. If people do not like it, then fewer people will play with me. If my standards are unpopular, my recreation options will be limited. It will sort itself out.

I didn't tell you how to spend your time. I told you how I think the community should be. If you don't want to be that way in the community, go someplace else. I am saying that I, actively, encourage the community to find your stated standards unpopular so that it sorts itself out to be best for the community.

 Lance845 wrote:
I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.

WRONG.

You have as much right to demand 'all inclusive' access to my recreation time as you do my romantic life. I am 100% entitled to my own preferences and association. Demanding I change that is toxic, and several other adjectives that get red-lettered.

You are 100% entitled to whatever opinion you want. And you are free to suffer the consequence of those opinions. If you want to act toxic you should get treated like your toxic and as you say, it should sort itself out.

 Lance845 wrote:
You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

WRONG.

You do not speak for "the community" or any community for that matter. You have no right to demand I do this. You CAN speak for yourself, which is fine. That is your right.

If you cannot accept this, then perhaps it is you who should keep away and do some self-reflection.

I don't speak for anyone but me. But I actively work within my gaming groups to cultivate a community I like. Which includes keeping people who gatekeep out if they cannot be brought out of their dumb ideas.

 Mmmpi wrote:
We do know the answer. It's enthusiastic and inclusive play.

You know what works? People who seem to be enjoying what they're doing.

Maybe that's my table, with all the painted models and taking photographs.

Maybe it's the one next to it, with two guys learning how to play with grey models.

Or maybe it's the next one over with a mix of both.

Maybe people are entirely capable of determining what they enjoy on their own and shouldn't force themselves to accomodate others. There are options, if you don't like someone's standards or what they're bringing to the table, then find another game. It's not difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
I didn't tell you how to spend your time. I told you how I think the community should be. If you don't want to be that way in the community, go someplace else. I am saying that I, actively, encourage the community to find your stated standards unpopular so that it sorts itself out to be best for the community.

You do not speak for the community.

Also, most communities dislike someone who demands everyone agree with them so they can... are you ready? Exclude other persons that haven't done anything wrong.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are 100% entitled to whatever opinion you want. And you are free to suffer the consequence of those opinions. If you want to act toxic you should get treated like your toxic and as you say, it should sort itself out.

I know.

And it's yet to cause any problems. It's made things better. System is working fine.

 Lance845 wrote:
I don't speak for anyone but me. But I actively work within my gaming groups to cultivate a community I like. Which includes keeping people who gatekeep out if they cannot be brought out of their dumb ideas.

So, basically you're gatekeeping.

Seriously what the heck just happened.

No one has ever been obligated to play anyone for any reason.

if you want to play against or with grey plastic or not to play with or against grey plastic that is your choice. what the heck happened to talking with your opponent to get what you want out of a game or event.

its the same thing with level of games (Casual/competitive and the inbetween).

 Desubot wrote:


Seriously what the heck just happened.

No one has ever been obligated to play anyone for any reason.

if you want to play against or with grey plastic or not to play with or against grey plastic that is your choice. what the heck happened to talking with your opponent to get what you want out of a game or event.

its the same thing with level of games (Casual/competitive and the inbetween).

Now your being exclusionist by having a preference apparently.. But only if its a specific preference..

To anyone who feels like it, which of the following does NOT sound like toxic gatekeeping?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
You have ZERO claim to anything I do in my recreational time, it does not belong to you.

 Lance845 wrote:
I told you how I think the community should be. If you don't want to be that way in the community, go someplace else. I am saying that I, actively, encourage the community to find your stated standards unpopular so that it sorts itself out to be best for the community.

 Lance845 wrote:
You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there. The community doesn't need you.

 Lance845 wrote:
I actively work within my gaming groups to cultivate a community I like. Which includes keeping people who gatekeep out if they cannot be brought out of their dumb ideas.

A chunk of empty sprue for all who get it right.

For someone who says they understand the paradox of tolerance and that it is not hard you sure don't seem to get it at all.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
We do know the answer. It's enthusiastic and inclusive play.

You know what works? People who seem to be enjoying what they're doing.

Maybe that's my table, with all the painted models and taking photographs.

Maybe it's the one next to it, with two guys learning how to play with grey models.

Or maybe it's the next one over with a mix of both.

Maybe people are entirely capable of determining what they enjoy on their own and shouldn't force themselves to accomodate others. There are options, if you don't like someone's standards or what they're bringing to the table, then find another game. It's not difficult.

Not sure why you're arguing against me, I've been saying your exact post for four days now.

 Lance845 wrote:
For someone who says they understand the paradox of tolerance and that it is not hard you sure don't seem to get it at all.

No, YOU don't get it.

I am not telling others what to do, YOU are.

I am only saying what I will do with my own time. You have no right to what I do with my time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Not sure why you're arguing against me, I've been saying your exact post for four days now.

AH, I didn't mean it to sound like that. I was more springboarding off what you said. Sorry, man!