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Ishagu wrote: That box doesn't say it. Most do say it.
This is one of the newest boxes they make.
I'm not talking about something from 1997. This is 2019 product.
My Intercessors and Custodes boxes I have on hand say that they require painting and assembly (on the bottom, next to the QR code). My Skaven battalion box from several years ago says the same (obviously with no QR code). However, to your credit, my Know No Fear box only says "unpainted miniatures, assembly required". What I'd be willing to bet is that all older kits that were in proper retail boxes (not the white supply ones) all say "painting and assembly required", but now, it's only the single unit boxes that carry that.
Basically, Ishagu (despite being pretty aggressive in this thread) is right in that most boxes do actually call for painting. The fact that they come with paints literally on the boxes, that they sold paint pots with Conquest alongside the models, and in the larger faction boxes with the full colour guides (like Shadowspear) come with guides on how to paint, I think it's definitely GW's INTENTION that you paint. You're obviously not forced to, unless you want to play at GW's events, but in the same vein, anyone can reject a game for whatever reason (be that what you've taken in your army, your painting or lack thereof, or simply not really wanting to play right now), which I think we've all asserted is absolutely fine.
GW wants to sell paint.
They also want you to buy their glue as well. Should we take that to mean we don't need to assemble our models, because that's just GW's way of making more money from us? I mean, there's push-fit models, just like how there's coloured sprue models, sure, so does that mean we don't need to assemble our squads, because if they needed to be assembled, it would mention that in the core rules. (It doesn't mention anything about them being built, only that they need to be Citadel Miniatures - funnily enough, there's actually more mentions of painted models than fully built ones: there's a reference to painted models on the Wobbly Model Syndrome tab!)
Just to make sure that we're on the same page here.
nurgle5 wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:If you don't want to play that person, don't.
This should probably be the key take away from this thread imho.
Agreed. I think the main thing to learn, if anything, is that it's okay to just take a step back and not play. If you're not willing to accommodate your opponent's preferences, and vice versa, just play someone else. This applies for literally everything - count as, proxying, competitive play, house rules, etc etc. If your enjoyment is going to be threatened by playing them, don't play them. Don't be rude to them, but know that you should prioritise your own happiness. If they were worth playing against in the first place, they should understand that, and if they don't, then they weren't worth playing against.
There really shouldn't be any stigma involved if you're mature about it.
Proof that GW doesn't care if you paint your models? No. I have however provided evidence that supports that opinion.
To be fair, the fact that they sell paints, hire staff to teach people how to paint, provide painting guides through articles and videos, display painted miniatures at the stores, display miniatures painted by the community on their website, hold an annual event about fully painted armies and advertise the game through pics of painted miniatures are probably all evidence that supports the opinion that GW cares if you paint your miniatures.
Yeah, saying that they don't care when they offer all those services is like saying that they don't care if you assemble them or even play the same. Obviously, they're not going to go round and force you into assembling, painting, and playing with your army, but they definitely have a "this is what we strongly encourage you do - but you don't HAVE to".
I mean, considering they offer so much on the painting front, it actually makes more sense that they'd rather you paint your models than build them!
To use the burger analogy above - what you do with your McDondalds burger is up to you, but considering it's food, and is designed to taste vaguely nice, there's definitely an intention behind what you do with it. To suggest that there's no intention in any purchase would realistically mean that McDonalds shouldn't be called fast food, it should be called fast product.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 14:18:20
Ishagu wrote: That box doesn't say it. Most do say it.
This is one of the newest boxes they make.
I'm not talking about something from 1997. This is 2019 product.
My Intercessors and Custodes boxes I have on hand say that they require painting and assembly (on the bottom, next to the QR code). My Skaven battalion box from several years ago says the same (obviously with no QR code). However, to your credit, my Know No Fear box only says "unpainted miniatures, assembly required". What I'd be willing to bet is that all older kits that were in proper retail boxes (not the white supply ones) all say "painting and assembly required", but now, it's only the single unit boxes that carry that.
Basically, Ishagu (despite being pretty aggressive in this thread) is right in that most boxes do actually call for painting. The fact that they come with paints literally on the boxes, that they sold paint pots with Conquest alongside the models, and in the larger faction boxes with the full colour guides (like Shadowspear) come with guides on how to paint, I think it's definitely GW's INTENTION that you paint. You're obviously not forced to, unless you want to play at GW's events, but in the same vein, anyone can reject a game for whatever reason (be that what you've taken in your army, your painting or lack thereof, or simply not really wanting to play right now), which I think we've all asserted is absolutely fine.
GW wants to sell paint.
They also want you to buy their glue as well. Should we take that to mean we don't need to assemble our models, because that's just GW's way of making more money from us? I mean, there's push-fit models, just like how there's coloured sprue models, sure, so does that mean we don't need to assemble our squads, because if they needed to be assembled, it would mention that in the core rules. (It doesn't mention anything about them being built, only that they need to be Citadel Miniatures - funnily enough, there's actually more mentions of painted models than fully built ones: there's a reference to painted models on the Wobbly Model Syndrome tab!)
Just to make sure that we're on the same page here.
nurgle5 wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:If you don't want to play that person, don't.
This should probably be the key take away from this thread imho.
Agreed. I think the main thing to learn, if anything, is that it's okay to just take a step back and not play. If you're not willing to accommodate your opponent's preferences, and vice versa, just play someone else. This applies for literally everything - count as, proxying, competitive play, house rules, etc etc. If your enjoyment is going to be threatened by playing them, don't play them. Don't be rude to them, but know that you should prioritise your own happiness. If they were worth playing against in the first place, they should understand that, and if they don't, then they weren't worth playing against.
There really shouldn't be any stigma involved if you're mature about it.
Proof that GW doesn't care if you paint your models? No. I have however provided evidence that supports that opinion.
To be fair, the fact that they sell paints, hire staff to teach people how to paint, provide painting guides through articles and videos, display painted miniatures at the stores, display miniatures painted by the community on their website, hold an annual event about fully painted armies and advertise the game through pics of painted miniatures are probably all evidence that supports the opinion that GW cares if you paint your miniatures.
Yeah, saying that they don't care when they offer all those services is like saying that they don't care if you assemble them or even play the same. Obviously, they're not going to go round and force you into assembling, painting, and playing with your army, but they definitely have a "this is what we strongly encourage you do - but you don't HAVE to".
I mean, considering they offer so much on the painting front, it actually makes more sense that they'd rather you paint your models than build them!
To use the burger analogy above - what you do with your McDondalds burger is up to you, but considering it's food, and is designed to taste vaguely nice, there's definitely an intention behind what you do with it. To suggest that there's no intention in any purchase would realistically mean that McDonalds shouldn't be called fast food, it should be called fast product.
The only one Ishagu is right about is the glue part. But then the rules say flat out that you need to assemble models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 14:22:14
Yeah, that's been the general consensus as of like page 18.
Some things are worth reiterating
Mmmpi wrote: I maintain that they provide those because they know a profitable amount of their customer are willing to buy it. Everything sells better when it's shown at it's best, and I can't deny that most of their customers like at least seeing painted models, even if a sizable chunk of those don't care enough to actually finish painting a whole army themselves.
So for GW, paint is just another thing they can sell. If people in large enough numbers didn't buy their paints, but still bought their models, I'm willing to bet we'd see those paints disappear from the website. Again, GW doesn't care what you do, but wants to make money off of those that do want to paint.
I'm a bit confused by your stance on whether GW intends or wants people to paint their miniatures tbh. To paraphrase a bit:
"It isn't in the rules" isn't very convincing, since it doesn't relate directly to gameplay, but the experience of playing the game.
"GW only encourages painting to sell paint products" seems self defeating, since they would care about you painting stuff because they will sell more products if you do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 14:25:06
Ishagu wrote: That box doesn't say it. Most do say it.
This is one of the newest boxes they make.
I'm not talking about something from 1997. This is 2019 product.
My Intercessors and Custodes boxes I have on hand say that they require painting and assembly (on the bottom, next to the QR code). My Skaven battalion box from several years ago says the same (obviously with no QR code). However, to your credit, my Know No Fear box only says "unpainted miniatures, assembly required". What I'd be willing to bet is that all older kits that were in proper retail boxes (not the white supply ones) all say "painting and assembly required", but now, it's only the single unit boxes that carry that.
Basically, Ishagu (despite being pretty aggressive in this thread) is right in that most boxes do actually call for painting. The fact that they come with paints literally on the boxes, that they sold paint pots with Conquest alongside the models, and in the larger faction boxes with the full colour guides (like Shadowspear) come with guides on how to paint, I think it's definitely GW's INTENTION that you paint. You're obviously not forced to, unless you want to play at GW's events, but in the same vein, anyone can reject a game for whatever reason (be that what you've taken in your army, your painting or lack thereof, or simply not really wanting to play right now), which I think we've all asserted is absolutely fine.
GW wants to sell paint.
They also want you to buy their glue as well. Should we take that to mean we don't need to assemble our models, because that's just GW's way of making more money from us? I mean, there's push-fit models, just like how there's coloured sprue models, sure, so does that mean we don't need to assemble our squads, because if they needed to be assembled, it would mention that in the core rules. (It doesn't mention anything about them being built, only that they need to be Citadel Miniatures - funnily enough, there's actually more mentions of painted models than fully built ones: there's a reference to painted models on the Wobbly Model Syndrome tab!)
Just to make sure that we're on the same page here.
nurgle5 wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:If you don't want to play that person, don't.
This should probably be the key take away from this thread imho.
Agreed. I think the main thing to learn, if anything, is that it's okay to just take a step back and not play. If you're not willing to accommodate your opponent's preferences, and vice versa, just play someone else. This applies for literally everything - count as, proxying, competitive play, house rules, etc etc. If your enjoyment is going to be threatened by playing them, don't play them. Don't be rude to them, but know that you should prioritise your own happiness. If they were worth playing against in the first place, they should understand that, and if they don't, then they weren't worth playing against.
There really shouldn't be any stigma involved if you're mature about it.
Proof that GW doesn't care if you paint your models? No. I have however provided evidence that supports that opinion.
To be fair, the fact that they sell paints, hire staff to teach people how to paint, provide painting guides through articles and videos, display painted miniatures at the stores, display miniatures painted by the community on their website, hold an annual event about fully painted armies and advertise the game through pics of painted miniatures are probably all evidence that supports the opinion that GW cares if you paint your miniatures.
Yeah, saying that they don't care when they offer all those services is like saying that they don't care if you assemble them or even play the same. Obviously, they're not going to go round and force you into assembling, painting, and playing with your army, but they definitely have a "this is what we strongly encourage you do - but you don't HAVE to".
I mean, considering they offer so much on the painting front, it actually makes more sense that they'd rather you paint your models than build them!
To use the burger analogy above - what you do with your McDondalds burger is up to you, but considering it's food, and is designed to taste vaguely nice, there's definitely an intention behind what you do with it. To suggest that there's no intention in any purchase would realistically mean that McDonalds shouldn't be called fast food, it should be called fast product.
The only one Ishagu is right about is the glue part. But then the rules say flat out that you need to assemble models.
Which rules? The ones on the box, that sometimes also call for the models to be painted? Or the rulebook? Because I don't see any mention of assembled models in mine.
Yeah, that's been the general consensus as of like page 18.
Some things are worth reiterating
Mmmpi wrote: I maintain that they provide those because they know a profitable amount of their customer are willing to buy it. Everything sells better when it's shown at it's best, and I can't deny that most of their customers like at least seeing painted models, even if a sizable chunk of those don't care enough to actually finish painting a whole army themselves.
So for GW, paint is just another thing they can sell. If people in large enough numbers didn't buy their paints, but still bought their models, I'm willing to bet we'd see those paints disappear from the website. Again, GW doesn't care what you do, but wants to make money off of those that do want to paint.
I'm a bit confused by your stance on whether GW intends or wants people to paint their miniatures tbh. To paraphrase a bit:
"It isn't in the rules" isn't very convincing, since it doesn't relate directly to gameplay, but the experience of playing the game.
"GW only encourages painting to sell paint products" seems self defeating, since they would care about you painting stuff because they will sell more products if you do.
The reiteration helps.
My point is that they want to sell stuff, but don't care what you do with it. However, they sell paint because they know there's a market, not because they created a market. My assertion is that if somehow that market disappeared, then GW would stop selling paint and hobby supplies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Which rules? The ones on the box, that sometimes also call for the models to be painted? Or the rulebook? Because I don't see any mention of assembled models in mine.
The ones in that big book that hold the rules of the game. The only time the box contains rules is when it has a slip inside that says "Rules", such as the one that came with the special edition Verydian model.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/15 14:29:06
Mmmpi wrote: My point is that they want to sell stuff, but don't care what you do with it. However, they sell paint because they know there's a market, not because they created a market. My assertion is that if somehow that market disappeared, then GW would stop selling paint and hobby supplies.
Can the same not be said about assembling your models though? They sell glue and mould line removers and clippers and cutters and so on - why aren't they just selling those because there's a market, not because they created it?
I'm not disagreeing that they want to sell stuff, but won't force you into anything - but that would also apply to glue and assembling your models too.
I'm sitting in GW right now, and I've shown this conversation to GW employees.
They are laughing. GW does fully intent for people to paint their armies, ideally. They are not just selling the models, they are trying to sell an entire hobby.
I've been told this is their company goal, literally just now.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I think the main thing to learn, if anything, is that it's okay to just take a step back and not play. If you're not willing to accommodate your opponent's preferences, and vice versa, just play someone else. This applies for literally everything - count as, proxying, competitive play, house rules, etc etc. If your enjoyment is going to be threatened by playing them, don't play them. Don't be rude to them, but know that you should prioritise your own happiness. If they were worth playing against in the first place, they should understand that, and if they don't, then they weren't worth playing against.
There really shouldn't be any stigma involved if you're mature about it.
This is a neat encapsulation of the "social contract" aspect of tabletop wargaming. Well said.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Which rules? The ones on the box, that sometimes also call for the models to be painted? Or the rulebook? Because I don't see any mention of assembled models in mine.
The ones in that big book that hold the rules of the game.
Got a quote on that? I can't find them.
Oooh, here's one!
8th Edition Rulebook, page 16 wrote:Most Citadel Miniatures do not come as a single, pre-built piece. Rather, they are intended to be assembled using modelling tools and glue, and then painted in the colours and schemes that you choose
Emphasis mine.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/15 14:32:13
Mmmpi wrote: My point is that they want to sell stuff, but don't care what you do with it. However, they sell paint because they know there's a market, not because they created a market. My assertion is that if somehow that market disappeared, then GW would stop selling paint and hobby supplies.
Can the same not be said about assembling your models though? They sell glue and mould line removers and clippers and cutters and so on - why aren't they just selling those because there's a market, not because they created it?
I'm not disagreeing that they want to sell stuff, but won't force you into anything - but that would also apply to glue and assembling your models too.
My only point on the assembly part is that the rules say to use assembled models.
If someone wants to skip that step, they're free to do it though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: I'm sitting in GW right now, and I've shown this conversation to GW employees.
They are laughing. GW does fully intent for people to paint their armies, ideally. They are not just selling the models, they are trying to sell an entire hobby.
I've been told this is their company goal, literally just now.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Which rules? The ones on the box, that sometimes also call for the models to be painted? Or the rulebook? Because I don't see any mention of assembled models in mine.
The ones in that big book that hold the rules of the game.
Got a quote on that? I can't find them.
Oooh, here's one!
8th Edition Rulebook, page 16 wrote:Most Citadel Miniatures do not come as a single, pre-built piece. Rather, they are intended to be assembled using modelling tools and glue, and then painted in the colours and schemes that you choose
Emphasis mine.
Honestly, I'll have to look. I was going off of what someone else said. But that's not a rule that you quoted either.
Keep in mind, color scheme that you choose can also be no paint.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/15 14:33:14
Mmmpi wrote: My point is that they want to sell stuff, but don't care what you do with it. However, they sell paint because they know there's a market, not because they created a market. My assertion is that if somehow that market disappeared, then GW would stop selling paint and hobby supplies.
Can the same not be said about assembling your models though? They sell glue and mould line removers and clippers and cutters and so on - why aren't they just selling those because there's a market, not because they created it?
I'm not disagreeing that they want to sell stuff, but won't force you into anything - but that would also apply to glue and assembling your models too.
My only point on the assembly part is that the rules say to use assembled models.
If someone wants to skip that step, they're free to do it though.
But where's the quote that says they must be? I've just provided one that says they're INTENDED to be built and painted, but not required.
ah, back just in time to be called wrong for how I view things again. lovely. good news, i will likely not be at those doors anyway.
is this tug of war actually going anywhere? seems standard for this place. ill be extra mindful that whatever i do is somehow viewed as wrong.
...are we really going back and forth on GW's intent to make more money somehow making this stuff be more correct? yeah, GW would like you to paint any model played in their stores. they'd also like you to use only their bits, even if they are the bad ones. lets not use them as a basis of this "social contract".
Mmmpi wrote: My point is that they want to sell stuff, but don't care what you do with it. However, they sell paint because they know there's a market, not because they created a market. My assertion is that if somehow that market disappeared, then GW would stop selling paint and hobby supplies.
Can the same not be said about assembling your models though? They sell glue and mould line removers and clippers and cutters and so on - why aren't they just selling those because there's a market, not because they created it?
I'm not disagreeing that they want to sell stuff, but won't force you into anything - but that would also apply to glue and assembling your models too.
My only point on the assembly part is that the rules say to use assembled models.
If someone wants to skip that step, they're free to do it though.
But where's the quote that says they must be? I've just provided one that says they're INTENDED to be built and painted, but not required.
I'm not going to look it up right now, but if it's not in there as a rule, then it's not a rule. Feel free to play with unassembled models. Not that I was stopping anyone from doing that anyway. Though I wouldn't play them either, barring a few specific circumstances.
8th Edition Rulebook, page 16 wrote:Most Citadel Miniatures do not come as a single, pre-built piece. Rather, they are intended to be assembled using modelling tools and glue, and then painted in the colours and schemes that you choose
Emphasis mine.
Honestly, I'll have to look. I was going off of what someone else said. But that's not a rule that you quoted either.
Not a rule, but it's in the rulebook. So far, that's more evidence on what GW "intended", and absolutely none on your part that models need to be assembled.
I'll keep looking, but I'm not expecting to find what you say there is.
Keep in mind, color scheme that you choose can also be no paint.
It specifically calls for "painted". You can paint them in the same shade of grey as if they were unpainted, but you still have to paint them that colour, by the use of that verb.
8th Edition Rulebook, page 16 wrote:Most Citadel Miniatures do not come as a single, pre-built piece. Rather, they are intended to be assembled using modelling tools and glue, and then painted in the colours and schemes that you choose
Emphasis mine.
Honestly, I'll have to look. I was going off of what someone else said. But that's not a rule that you quoted either.
Not a rule, but it's in the rulebook. So far, that's more evidence on what GW "intended", and absolutely none on your part that models need to be assembled.
I'll keep looking, but I'm not expecting to find what you say there is.
Keep in mind, color scheme that you choose can also be no paint.
It specifically calls for "painted". You can paint them in the same shade of grey as if they were unpainted, but you still have to paint them that colour, by the use of that verb.
I'm not going to debate verbage with you, but I disagree with your take on it.
As for the first part, again, preference and intended are two different things. If they intended you to have all of your stuff painted, there would be a rule about it.
Mmmpi wrote: My point is that they want to sell stuff, but don't care what you do with it. However, they sell paint because they know there's a market, not because they created a market. My assertion is that if somehow that market disappeared, then GW would stop selling paint and hobby supplies.
Can the same not be said about assembling your models though? They sell glue and mould line removers and clippers and cutters and so on - why aren't they just selling those because there's a market, not because they created it?
I'm not disagreeing that they want to sell stuff, but won't force you into anything - but that would also apply to glue and assembling your models too.
My only point on the assembly part is that the rules say to use assembled models.
If someone wants to skip that step, they're free to do it though.
But where's the quote that says they must be? I've just provided one that says they're INTENDED to be built and painted, but not required.
I'm not going to look it up right now, but if it's not in there as a rule, then it's not a rule.
So why did you make the claim that the rules claimed it?
I'm not claiming that my quote about GW's intention for you to assemble and paint your models was a rule. Only that they seem to have placed equal emphasis on painting and assembly.
Feel free to play with unassembled models.
But you literally just said that "the rules say to use assembled models"!
Not that I was stopping anyone from doing that anyway. Though I wouldn't play them either, barring a few specific circumstances.
I never said for a moment that you were stopping them, or that you would be wrong to not play them.
I'm just making sure that you're not creating some kind of double standard between assembly and painting.
Too bad. You probably don't have a local Warhammer shop.
No, Osaka's store in the Namba district is the closest, and it's over 450km from where I live. I do however have a nice shop in Oita prefecture that I go to. It's just not a GW only shop.
As for your presence at a GW shop, outside of doxing yourself, there really isn't any way for you to prove that you're telling the truth.
Mmmpi wrote: As for the first part, again, preference and intended are two different things. If they intended you to have all of your stuff painted, there would be a rule about it.
If they intended my models to be built, there'd be a rule about it too. So far, I don't see one.
Mmmpi wrote: My point is that they want to sell stuff, but don't care what you do with it. However, they sell paint because they know there's a market, not because they created a market. My assertion is that if somehow that market disappeared, then GW would stop selling paint and hobby supplies.
Can the same not be said about assembling your models though? They sell glue and mould line removers and clippers and cutters and so on - why aren't they just selling those because there's a market, not because they created it?
I'm not disagreeing that they want to sell stuff, but won't force you into anything - but that would also apply to glue and assembling your models too.
My only point on the assembly part is that the rules say to use assembled models.
If someone wants to skip that step, they're free to do it though.
But where's the quote that says they must be? I've just provided one that says they're INTENDED to be built and painted, but not required.
I'm not going to look it up right now, but if it's not in there as a rule, then it's not a rule.
So why did you make the claim that the rules claimed it?
I'm not claiming that my quote about GW's intention for you to assemble and paint your models was a rule. Only that they seem to have placed equal emphasis on painting and assembly.
Feel free to play with unassembled models.
But you literally just said that "the rules say to use assembled models"!
Not that I was stopping anyone from doing that anyway. Though I wouldn't play them either, barring a few specific circumstances.
I never said for a moment that you were stopping them, or that you would be wrong to not play them.
I'm just making sure that you're not creating some kind of double standard between assembly and painting.
I made the claim because I took someone else at face value.
This is genuinely the dumbest argument I have ever had the misfortune to have to wade through.
More MOd warnings coming.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
