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The fight first ability is already taking you out of the normal order, which is all charging units first, then other units in alternating player order.

The fight first is doing what the strat does, but without having to spend CP.

So using the strat on a unit with fight first ability would be a waste as you are giving them an ability that they already have.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

What you are assuming, is that, that means that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order, which is clearly not true as there is nothing saying that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order. So you need a citation saying that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order, if you can not provide one, then they do count against the normal fight order.

Can you provide a citation that the counter offensive unit counts towards the normal fight order ? The FAQ says the stratagem allows you to fight with a unit outside of the normal fight order.

Of course. Page 8 in the battle Primer tells us "After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each."

p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You still need to obey the rules about alternating. So yea...

I do obey those rules.

except you have not done so if you try to use the strat to get two units in a row.

p5freak wrote:Where does it say that the stratagem prevents you from getting 2 combats one after the other ?

That is not how a permissive ruleset works.

It has to tell you that something is allowed. It doesn't say I can't is not a valid argument.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Your whole premise is flawed though. You are assuming that 'out of order' means that the rules for alternating players are ignored. But that is entirely an assumption on your part that has no rules backing.

Fighting with it immediately is fighting outside the order. No part of the rule allows you to ignore the rule that says you must then allow the opponent to fight with a unit after it.

As it is a permissive ruleset, the onus is on you to provide s citation if you want to ignore a rule.

The FAQ, which has already been quoted, gives me permission to pick a unit to fight with, outside of the normal fight order.

I think you're having trouble differentiating "fight order" with the fight phase sequence, dude. Whether or not a unit gets to activate before it would normally be able to (ie, "out of order"), does not change the fundamental aspect of alternating activations in the fight phase. For such a rule to be overwritten, you would need explicit permission. The Counter Offensive stratagem (and your quoted FAQ) does not give this permission.

You're spending 2CP to pick a unit to fight with - nothing more.

Counter Offensive does not allow a unit to act as part of the "fight first" group, as the FAQ specifically states. It allows the user to choose a unit and fight with it next (also in the FAQ). Does this break the fight sequence? The FAQ suggests it does (allows a unit to act outside the normal fight order). The only real question is if, by using Counter Offensive, you "break" the fight sequence, and it immediately picks up again as though you did not use it, or if the fight sequence includes this "action outside of the order" and it does no good to use it during the alternating activation portion of the Fight Phase.

 flandarz wrote:
Counter Offensive does not allow a unit to act as part of the "fight first" group, as the FAQ specifically states. It allows the user to choose a unit and fight with it next (also in the FAQ). Does this break the fight sequence? The FAQ suggests it does (allows a unit to act outside the normal fight order). The only real question is if, by using Counter Offensive, you "break" the fight sequence, and it immediately picks up again as though you did not use it, or if the fight sequence includes this "action outside of the order" and it does no good to use it during the alternating activation portion of the Fight Phase.

Yes, that is correct. That line should start with "Think of it as..."

I'm trying to show that this is the "effective application" of the rule relative to their current interpretation, which has the stratagem do something completely different altogether. I'm doing this because it is a simpler way to interpret how Counter Offensive works (albeit not technically accurate), because currently p5freak is way offside on this one, and bringing them to the correct conclusion might have to start at a more basic (yet technically inaccurate) level.

Syrup_of_Fig wrote:
The fight first ability is already taking you out of the normal order, which is all charging units first, then other units in alternating player order.

The fight first is doing what the strat does, but without having to spend CP.

So using the strat on a unit with fight first ability would be a waste as you are giving them an ability that they already have.

What if i use the strat on a unit which doesnt have a fight first ability ? I would be breaking the rules if i dont choose one of my fight first units after a charged unit has fought. The stratagem doesnt tell me to choose a unit to fight with, it tells me to pick a unit to fight with next.

Player A chooses one of his charged units, player B plays counter offensive and picks a unit without fight first ability (he doesnt choose this unit), player B chooses a fight first unit, player A chooses one of his charged units, player B chooses one of his fight first units, etc.

Quicksilver Swiftness
This unit always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

 p5freak wrote:

Syrup_of_Fig wrote:
The fight first ability is already taking you out of the normal order, which is all charging units first, then other units in alternating player order.

The fight first is doing what the strat does, but without having to spend CP.

So using the strat on a unit with fight first ability would be a waste as you are giving them an ability that they already have.

What if i use the strat on a unit which doesnt have a fight first ability ? I would be breaking the rules if i dont choose one of my fight first units after a charged unit has fought. The stratagem doesnt tell me to choose a unit to fight with, it tells me to pick a unit to fight with next.

Player A chooses one of his charged units, player B plays counter offensive and picks a unit without fight first ability (he doesnt choose this unit), player B chooses a fight first unit, player A chooses one of his charged units, player B chooses one of his fight first units, etc.

Quicksilver Swiftness
This unit always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

Oooh, I hadn't thought about it that way around.

Looking at the ability above, it does specify that you alternate choosing units. If you used the counter offensive, that would be a unit you had chosen to fight with. I read it that Quicksilver Swiftness couldn't be used immediately because the counter offensive unit has been given a "similar ability" so you would have to alternate.

That said, I see no reason that you couldn't use Couter Offensive after your enemy's LAST charging unit and if you still had a Quicksilver unit left then you would activate two in a row. For example enemy charges with only one unit, you could use CO and THEN the Quicksilver unit.

Syrup_of_Fig wrote:

Looking at the ability above, it does specify that you alternate choosing units. If you used the counter offensive, that would be a unit you had chosen to fight with. I read it that Quicksilver Swiftness couldn't be used immediately because the counter offensive unit has been given a "similar ability" so you would have to alternate.

Counter offensive doesnt choose a unit. You pick a unit to fight with next. Thats not the same.

 p5freak wrote:

Syrup_of_Fig wrote:

Looking at the ability above, it does specify that you alternate choosing units. If you used the counter offensive, that would be a unit you had chosen to fight with. I read it that Quicksilver Swiftness couldn't be used immediately because the counter offensive unit has been given a "similar ability" so you would have to alternate.

Counter offensive doesnt choose a unit. You pick a unit to fight with next. Thats not the same.

Pick a unit and choose a unit are exactly the same thing...

When you pick something, you have chosen it. Creating an artificial distinction to suit your argument weakens your argument entirely.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Syrup_of_Fig wrote:

Looking at the ability above, it does specify that you alternate choosing units. If you used the counter offensive, that would be a unit you had chosen to fight with. I read it that Quicksilver Swiftness couldn't be used immediately because the counter offensive unit has been given a "similar ability" so you would have to alternate.

Counter offensive doesnt choose a unit. You pick a unit to fight with next. Thats not the same.

Pick a unit and choose a unit are exactly the same thing...

I would agree, pick/choose are synonymous here.

I don't think that the player actively selecting the unit, rather than it being an inherent ability makes any difference to the need to alternate player.

I think that, by putting CO on a unit, you are giving them the ability to go with the "fight first" units, which then brings us to the alternative choosing units in Quicksilver.

It would be interesting to know if other similar strats are worded the same or if some don't stipulate players alternating units.

Syrup_of_Fig wrote:

I think that, by putting CO on a unit, you are giving them the ability to go with the "fight first" units, which then brings us to the alternative choosing units in Quicksilver.

That is not what the stratagem is doing. Read the FAQ.

 p5freak wrote:

Quicksilver Swiftness
This unit always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

If this is the exact wording of the rule, and with the phrasing of the rulebook:

the rulebook wrote:
All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each.

Then if any units with "Quicksilver swiftness" are in combat, you skip the "chargers fight first" and jump straight to alternating, as per the second half of "Quicksilver Swiftness", which does not specify that it has to be units which fight first or have charged which you alternate.

That aside, because it says to alternate and the wording of the stratagem states "pick a unit to fight next", you would pick a unit to fight, and then revert to the standard, which is to alternate. Alternating would therefore mean for the person who didn't just fight to pick a unit, as that order would not have been determined before you interrupted, it is determined by the act of alternating.

To me, alternating means "whoever didn't just act, acts.", and the interrupt strat simply allows you to jump in early. I do not think that it will allow you to fight with 2 units in a row, unless the opponent has run out of units to activate.

Example:

4 units from player A charge 4 units from player B. One of player B's units have "Fight First".

Order of play goes:
Player A unit 1
Player B pops interrupt and uses a unit without "fight first"
Player A unit 2, as we are back to alternating and player B just went
Player B "fight first" unit
Player A unit 3
Player A unit 4
Player B unit 3
Player B unit 4

The rule is to alternate, and if one player goes twice, you aren't alternating. "The unit may fight next" is clearly different to "the unit may fight immediately". "Next" implies that it is taking its position in the line, not outside of it.

 p5freak wrote:

Syrup_of_Fig wrote:

I think that, by putting CO on a unit, you are giving them the ability to go with the "fight first" units, which then brings us to the alternative choosing units in Quicksilver.

That is not what the stratagem is doing. Read the FAQ.

I should not have used the word ability as it has a specific meaning in this context.

CO allows a unit to take its turn in the Fight phase earlier than it otherwise would have.

This has the effect of putting that unit in the same part of the phase as Charging or "Always fight first" units. This is what is outside the normal order for that unit.

I cannot see anything that would mean you get to then select another unit, thus breaking the alternating player choice.