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 Ishagu wrote:
You give up allies. And even though there is a big variety of powers and traits you are locked into a very specific list tied to your chapter.

You also lose your Doctrine bonus if you mix chapters. Those are pretty significant things you fail to mention.

I really don't though. My point was that Blood of Baal indicates that you actually WONT give up doctrines if you mix chapters, as long as you're mixing a codex chapter with a non-codex chapter.

If doctrines were a bonus for giving up allies, that might be one thing, but turn around and say that you don't lose doctrines if you mix with these specific six codexes, then you're not really giving up a whole lot.

And sure, you have to choose a specific set of Powers, Strats, Super Doctrines, Relics and WL traits based on one of the codex compliant chapters. Guess what no other faction has? That.

Everyone else gets ONE stratagem, ONE relic, ONE warlord trait, AND you don't get them at all if you want to take one of the custom subfaction traits.

That is something that is structurally broken. It doesn't matter if lesser used chapter X or Y isn't as good as the best subfaction from some other book, just like it didn't matter when RAW Genestealer Cult units could use the stratagems from the Tyranids codex that GSC weren't particularly OP. A faction getting access to another faction's stratagems was broken, and the rule needed to be fixed.

If you pick any codex-compliant space marine chapter, you get access to twice as much stuff as any other faction in the game. This isn't "Anti-marine bias" because that INCLUDES all other loyalist marine factions, who DONT get the codex 2.0 stuff on top of all their new supplement bonuses.

Until such point as everyone else gets supplements where they get to double dip (Unlikely) and custom chapter traits where they get to keep the base codex subfaction bonuses (Seems the opposite is happening) then Codex: Space Marines, not all marine factions, just Codex: Space Marines is fundamentally unfair with respect to the other factions in the game.

You should have to choose between most of the contents of codex 2.0 and the the contents of your choice of codex supplement, and Successor Chapter traits should remove base chapter bonuses, full stop. Customizable chapter traits are obviously powergameable enough as it is when they have that trade off, just look at how many competitive eldar lists are willingly giving up the most consistently broken subfaction trait since the beginning of 8th for them.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
So you admit that a new codex chapter along with the relevant supplement is not a problem?

Now please direct your complaints more accurately from now on without making blanket statements about the whole faction.

Did i ever make a blanket statement in this thread.
You should seriously start to look who is talking to you.

Secondly: Yes more codex chapters means ultimately more marine release slog.
GW had their chance at fixing CSM and SM, they fethed up, end of story, other factions deserve sunlight just as much.

Fixing marines has nothing to do with a release cycle however, but it'd be better for all factions if marines are brought down a notch.

Rather than just leaving them as they are so they can release a less powerful xenos unit, take the time to even the playing field first.

Oh i agree, fully, as in kick the heavy outliers down help the underperformers up.
However gw has not shown any Intention at all so far to do so.
Neither ca nor faq have helped in that regard, on the contrary,we now have 55pts acolythes, aeldari planes and 33 and 5 pts cultists respectively left in as typos in ca.
Excuse me if my outlook is pesimitic in the ability of gw to do so.

 Ishagu wrote:
Nice factual evidence that ITC is worse for game balance than Chapter Approved missions!

I think you've drawn the wrong conclusion on a mixed bag of results there. I'm curious to see what CA missions can do, but there is not historical evidence that CA was better outside the top books.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This was posted before the whopping 50 pt CA drop.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It probably 100 points to expensive. It scales so hard with stratagems like moore dakka and freebootas that it's just the kind of unit that they couldn't fix if they tried...

at 650 it would be extremely OP.

(It can’t make use of More Dakka strat)

Xeno makes statements without knowledge all the time. He also defends all things Marine to the death. I’d take his posts as tongue in cheek, to be honest.

100 points is a big deal. You know the Castellan going from 600 to 700 made a huge difference. ITT I am arguing for a nerf to marines top factions...

It absolutely can use the strat. The only requirement is being an ORK unit. With Free boota up (which is super easy to trigger with another unit) you are hitting on 4's with 5's generating extra hits. It's really strong when you get the combo off. I've seen a stompa kill its points in a single turn actually. Which is why I find it hilarious it gets complained about so much. Yeah it's not amazing...kind of like how a space marine falchion is not amazing ether 1050 points and doesn't even have an invune. Super heavies that can tripple their damage output for 2 CP are REALLY hard to balance. It really is a factor of like 100-150 which determines useless to OP in this situation.

Perhaps we just need to wait for the meta to settle a little before worrying?

Granted not all factions will be able to adjust for the prevalence of our transhuman saviours

Personally I have no problem with Marines currently being strong as they have historically been weak (as mono).

Expert Crafters seems only to be an issue with the units that can split at the start of the game. Perhaps they should just stop that i.e. things have to remain in unit coherence.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Argive wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Gosh I wonder why every other post is whining and crying that marines are underpowered when theyre underpowered, and every other post is whining and crying that theyre overpowered when theyre overpowered?

It cant be that every other player plays them, nearly all the games focus is on them and they are basically the protagonists of the game. It must be "anti marine bias."

What he said..
But really both are gross. The main difference is that Eldar OPness can clearly be laid at the foot of one thing: CHE.

Post PR , the eldar planes are an even bigger crutch propping up the faction grossly skewing performance.. Eldar planes need to be reigned in.
Bs2+ with exarch power with traits on top? Its gross... Almost as gross as reroll everything and additional damage and AP all the time for free...

CHE should stop exiting and there should only be CH and Hemlocks. Gw really really loves selling those planes so watcha gunna do..?

Yeah...pretty much no. Eldar have a huge number of units to abuse the extremely busted expert crafters custom trait. Which is basically the same trait that almost every marine list abuses too - MOA.

So Eldar are a bigger problem than Marines because Eldar have a huge number of units? Have you seen even just the vanilla Marine codex?

zerosignal wrote:
Perhaps we just need to wait for the meta to settle a little before worrying?

Granted not all factions will be able to adjust for the prevalence of our transhuman saviours

Personally I have no problem with Marines currently being strong as they have historically been weak (as mono).

Expert Crafters seems only to be an issue with the units that can split at the start of the game. Perhaps they should just stop that i.e. things have to remain in unit coherence.

Uhhh...why is it only a problem with units that can split? It's a problem on any single unit.

Warwalkers can take 2x brightlance or missle launcher...effectively full rerolls for each model if taken in singles.
CH and CHE and flacons get near full rerolls on their pulselasers
Heck even on waveserpants a twin-bight lance is super effective.

It's clear the trait is too good. Both marines and Eldar are spamming it. It needs removed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You give up allies. And even though there is a big variety of powers and traits you are locked into a very specific list tied to your chapter.

You also lose your Doctrine bonus if you mix chapters. Those are pretty significant things you fail to mention.

I really don't though. My point was that Blood of Baal indicates that you actually WONT give up doctrines if you mix chapters, as long as you're mixing a codex chapter with a non-codex chapter.

If doctrines were a bonus for giving up allies, that might be one thing, but turn around and say that you don't lose doctrines if you mix with these specific six codexes, then you're not really giving up a whole lot.

And sure, you have to choose a specific set of Powers, Strats, Super Doctrines, Relics and WL traits based on one of the codex compliant chapters. Guess what no other faction has? That.

Everyone else gets ONE stratagem, ONE relic, ONE warlord trait, AND you don't get them at all if you want to take one of the custom subfaction traits.

That is something that is structurally broken. It doesn't matter if lesser used chapter X or Y isn't as good as the best subfaction from some other book, just like it didn't matter when RAW Genestealer Cult units could use the stratagems from the Tyranids codex that GSC weren't particularly OP. A faction getting access to another faction's stratagems was broken, and the rule needed to be fixed.

If you pick any codex-compliant space marine chapter, you get access to twice as much stuff as any other faction in the game. This isn't "Anti-marine bias" because that INCLUDES all other loyalist marine factions, who DONT get the codex 2.0 stuff on top of all their new supplement bonuses.

Until such point as everyone else gets supplements where they get to double dip (Unlikely) and custom chapter traits where they get to keep the base codex subfaction bonuses (Seems the opposite is happening) then Codex: Space Marines, not all marine factions, just Codex: Space Marines is fundamentally unfair with respect to the other factions in the game.

You should have to choose between most of the contents of codex 2.0 and the the contents of your choice of codex supplement, and Successor Chapter traits should remove base chapter bonuses, full stop. Customizable chapter traits are obviously powergameable enough as it is when they have that trade off, just look at how many competitive eldar lists are willingly giving up the most consistently broken subfaction trait since the beginning of 8th for them.

Personally I don't like the mixing of chapters keeping the doctrine bonus but at least they lose superdoctrine for doing so. I like the idea of armies getting a strong bonus for not including allies. It is a great way to keep things externally balanced as it allows factions to have weaknesses. My original idea was to make taking allies cost you the 3 CP for being battleforged or paying for additional detachments with CP...but giving a bonus rule to mono players than don't take allies also works as a measure.

the_scotsman wrote:
Gosh I wonder why every other post is whining and crying that marines are underpowered when theyre underpowered, and every other post is whining and crying that theyre overpowered when theyre overpowered?

It cant be that every other player plays them, nearly all the games focus is on them and they are basically the protagonists of the game. It must be "anti marine bias."

So I saw this post that I missed and it got my wheels turning.

These are two different things. Marines that are losing and marines that are dominating. When Marines were losing IG were the whipping boy, right?

So I figured I'd pull up win rates for the primary chapters over time. Here's what that looks like. Iron Hands? Didn't exist. White Scars? Didn't exist. CF / IF / BT? Barely there.

The results are also a mixed bag.



And this is a % of games played by primary detachments for a higher level grouping of factions.



So, who suffered on the upswing of Codex Astartes? Chaos, Imperium, and potentially Knights. The players trading sides stayed mostly with their "realm".
Orks, Necrons, Nids, Eldar? All pretty consistent. You might object to the Eldar grouping, but it seems the soup is still strong with that faction like Chaos.

Before the supplements? Codex Astartes only beat Necrons for rate of play. Is it any wonder that GW made them?

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Argive wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Gosh I wonder why every other post is whining and crying that marines are underpowered when theyre underpowered, and every other post is whining and crying that theyre overpowered when theyre overpowered?

It cant be that every other player plays them, nearly all the games focus is on them and they are basically the protagonists of the game. It must be "anti marine bias."

What he said..
But really both are gross. The main difference is that Eldar OPness can clearly be laid at the foot of one thing: CHE.

Post PR , the eldar planes are an even bigger crutch propping up the faction grossly skewing performance.. Eldar planes need to be reigned in.
Bs2+ with exarch power with traits on top? Its gross... Almost as gross as reroll everything and additional damage and AP all the time for free...

CHE should stop exiting and there should only be CH and Hemlocks. Gw really really loves selling those planes so watcha gunna do..?

Yeah...pretty much no. Eldar have a huge number of units to abuse the extremely busted expert crafters custom trait. Which is basically the same trait that almost every marine list abuses too - MOA.

So Eldar are a bigger problem than Marines because Eldar have a huge number of units? Have you seen even just the vanilla Marine codex?

I am not suggesting eldar is a bigger problem with EC and MOA. I want it removed for both factions.

Boy that hike is unnatural imo5-30%
Also, where's guard?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Boy that hike is unnatural imo5-30%
Also, where's guard?

Very much an over-correction for sure. IG falls under Imperium. I imagine if I broke it out that IG and AC would be the ones suffering most). Soup makes analysis really muddy. I'm going to try and make charts for the combos (e.g. BA & IG, CW & DE, etc).

If you think Eldar are OP because twenty some lists with "Custom Traits" did well - pushing up to nearly 70% win rate, you should be absolutely terrified of Cult Mechanicus. Lists with Cybernetica Cohort had an *80%* winrate. Clearly Cult Mechanicus needs a nerf and Eldar need a buff.

Bharring wrote:
If you think Eldar are OP because twenty some lists with "Custom Traits" did well - pushing up to nearly 70% win rate, you should be absolutely terrified of Cult Mechanicus. Lists with Cybernetica Cohort had an *80%* winrate. Clearly Cult Mechanicus needs a nerf and Eldar need a buff.

You're misusing that data. Custom Craftworlds played 208 games in Dec. Cybernetica Cohort was involved in 5 games - so one player went 4-1 with them.

Bharring wrote:
If you think Eldar are OP because twenty some lists with "Custom Traits" did well - pushing up to nearly 70% win rate, you should be absolutely terrified of Cult Mechanicus. Lists with Cybernetica Cohort had an *80%* winrate. Clearly Cult Mechanicus needs a nerf and Eldar need a buff.

In statistics we call those outliers...we ignore the outliers and look at trends. Some people have actually won tournaments with Ultramarines who are sitting at around 45% WR as a faction in the same time period. It doesn't mean ultramarines are OP.

SM present a lot of problems to the game now. They are a problem in semi-casual circles because they are just better per point than a lot of other armies out there and to have a fun game against them you need to take an optimized list to compete against a casual list. At the highest levels of comp they have combos that are just bonkers good (IH grav devs wounding anything nearly 15 times on 20 shots after a few strats is dumb).

I'm looking forward to the laugh fest that this years LVO is going to be. If GW thought it looked bad when yanarri and knights were at the top it's going to be hilarious when 50-60% of the top tables are marines (not to mention 30%+ of the field). Judging by how hard those armies were hit by the nerf bat, it's not looking good for the poster boys.

The crazy thing is GW has had several chances to fix this debacle and they haven't. They tried with the week 2 IH fix but didn't go far enough. I'm sure they have to know marines are a problem but I'm hoping the egg on their face from LVO will be enough for them to actually listen.

The nerf bat will come after that, GW will over correct the other way since they've sold the back stock of primaris they have laying around (because they don't know how to design rules at all) and marines will be back to an under-performing joke and our eldar overlords will have their "rightful" position back on top.

My poor DA/SW/DW will be victims of the over correction (since GW doesn't know how to balance their way out of a wet paper sack) and I will continue whining on Dakka about how much my marines suck.

It's telling that a lot of players are switching to marines even though they know the meta is going to be built to beat marines. The Frontline guys have some interesting data about the factions people pre-reged with for LVO vs the ones they are actually submitting lists for and that will be another interesting data point.

IMHO (probably as a player of several SM factions that "deserve" their own identities, please don't tangent on this, there's a whole nuther 20 page topic on it) GW went too far giving all of the chapters their own identity. Marines should be far more monolithic in their design. The difference between white scars and salamanders shouldn't be as extreme as it is. Giving such varied design builds to armies which pay the same points for the same units is just bonkers and makes it extremely hard to balance (how do you balance seige breaker cents vs salie cents?).

But GW is chasing that bag. They know marines are popular and making the sub-factions into pretty much stand alone armies is an easy way to sell more models/paints/books. They basically took the space marine army and turned it into a Raven Guard army or a White Scar army and that greed is coming back to bite them because they didn't put in the time/$$ to balance the changes the bean counters wanted.

I hope LVO shines a spot light on the problems marines are causing in the game. I haven't been to a tourney since the supplements dropped and I realized my armies just cannot compete until my marines go super saiyan too (which is taking entirely too long and is only a problem because GW wants to milk all the $$ out of the player base that they can, because the books are done they just don't want to release them all at the same time because of $$ reasons).

Short of GW going back in time and removing all the marine supplements there is not much they can do. It's beyond simple nerfs to adjust SN balance down due to the layers of abilities they can get between codex/supplement/PA expansion.

They basically need to time travel or give every other faction the same extra free later of modifiers/wargear/traits/strats. And not just quantity but quality for low/free cost that SM received.

Or make 9th edition with webupload armylists that invalidate all the current books ala AOS

blaktoof wrote:
Short of GW going back in time and removing all the marine supplements there is not much they can do. It's beyond simple nerfs to adjust SN balance down due to the layers of abilities they can get between codex/supplement/PA expansion.

They basically need to time travel or give every other faction the same extra free later of modifiers/wargear/traits/strats. And not just quantity but quality for low/free cost that SM received.

It's almost like you aren't paying attention. Only Ironhands are too strong. The data is in this thread if you care to look. All they need to do is nerf the IF and IH superdoctrines. Ultramarines for example lose more than they win...but the only way to fix marines is to go back in time and remove all supplements? LOL.

blaktoof wrote:
Short of GW going back in time and removing all the marine supplements there is not much they can do. It's beyond simple nerfs to adjust SN balance down due to the layers of abilities they can get between codex/supplement/PA expansion.

They basically need to time travel or give every other faction the same extra free later of modifiers/wargear/traits/strats. And not just quantity but quality for low/free cost that SM received.

Or make 9th edition with webupload armylists that invalidate all the current books ala AOS

Which wouldn't be a problem if they didn't plan everything around printing a book that they then commit themselves to not changing for years. If Warmachine needs to scrub or dramatically rewrite a unit or ability they print a new card and move on. If Infinity needs to scrub or dramatically rewrite a unit or ability they push an update to the Army app. If Warhammer needs to scrub or dramatically rewrite a unit or ability they throw their arms up and say "No, we can't do that, it'd make people question the value of buying our books, we must instead buff everything else in the next cycle of books to compensate/release a new edition so we can justify reprinting all the books!"

bananathug wrote:

I'm looking forward to the laugh fest that this years LVO is going to be. If GW thought it looked bad when yanarri and knights were at the top it's going to be hilarious when 50-60% of the top tables are marines (not to mention 30%+ of the field). Judging by how hard those armies were hit by the nerf bat, it's not looking good for the poster boys.

On the contrary - I think this LVO will be incredibly interesting to see. Eldar and T'au are obviously capable (even if T'au is one dimensional). There is still yet a LOT of changes that have yet to play out. Craftworlds clearly have their PA under control. CSM are just beginning to. GK & TS may have enough time to incorporate theirs. The CA changes are wholly under-represented in the data.

These next 3 months will probably be the litmus test for how GW will deal with issues into the future. If they fail (and you need to give it time to see if they fail) then we're in trouble.

The crazy thing is GW has had several chances to fix this debacle and they haven't. They tried with the week 2 IH fix but didn't go far enough. I'm sure they have to know marines are a problem but I'm hoping the egg on their face from LVO will be enough for them to actually listen.

IH needs tweaks. Possibly other facets, too, but as Eldar start to capably pound them what works for Marines may start to change. They're still going to have a boat load of awesome abilities. Doing something like changing docs to be once per game still doesn't stop IH from alpha striking.

The nerf bat will come after that, GW will over correct the other way since they've sold the back stock of primaris they have laying around (because they don't know how to design rules at all) and marines will be back to an under-performing joke and our eldar overlords will have their "rightful" position back on top.

Eldar are currently at the top. Not all marines are over-performing.

I hope LVO shines a spot light on the problems marines are causing in the game.

Sure, me too.

It's amusing that after all the buffs to marines, BA essentially have identical problems on the table. Shows how terrible they were before.

Martel732 wrote:
It's amusing that after all the buffs to marines, BA essentially have identical problems on the table. Shows how terrible they were before.

All Marines have problems because of a bunch of math errors around the introduction of the "damage" stat in the Indexes, and because of a design team that's overly-generous at handing out AP. The BA are basically where they were before because the supplements have been handing other Legions stratagems that would be ludicrously broken if they could be applied to better units in an effort to compensate for the units not being very good.

Martel732 wrote:
It's amusing that after all the buffs to marines, BA essentially have identical problems on the table. Shows how terrible they were before.

Just fool around all with the data from earlier in the edition. All the marine factions hover around 42% WR. Blood angels were typically the worst. Drastic changes were needed. More or less the fixes but marines into the mix. Blood angels seem competent - perhaps somewhere around ultramarine with this new update. Yet most marine haters will likely suggest all doctrines need a nerf. Even though your faction is perfectly balanced except for ironhands.

 Xenomancers wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Short of GW going back in time and removing all the marine supplements there is not much they can do. It's beyond simple nerfs to adjust SN balance down due to the layers of abilities they can get between codex/supplement/PA expansion.

They basically need to time travel or give every other faction the same extra free later of modifiers/wargear/traits/strats. And not just quantity but quality for low/free cost that SM received.

It's almost like you aren't paying attention. Only Ironhands are too strong.

*if you define too strong solely as "winning top-level competitive tournaments."

Playing vs supplement marines who get twice as many psychic powers, relics, wl traits, strats, better CTs than you, doctrines and super-doctrines you don't get is the closest thing I've felt to trying to play the game as a faction that does not get a Decurion super-formation against armies that did have one in 7th ed.

Whacking the current top mole of Iron Hands and MOA will just lead someone to find the next super-combo. It's like when we had unrestricted soup detachments in early 8th with no subfaction bonuses, every army was like celestine leading guardsmen with Culexus Assassins or Malefic lords standing behind walls of brimstone horrors with a couple daemon princes floating around. Nerfing the ability to create crazy combos is better than nerfing individual offenders at creating diversity.

Don't just nerf MOA, remove the ability to use custom chapter tactics with chapter bonuses, make Codex Space Marines follow the same rules everyone else does.

Don't just nerf Iron Hands, make it so the contents of the supplements don't stack with the contents of codex 2.0. Marines having a diversity of tools in their toolbox is fine, especially if those tools offer a benefit over bringing soup. Choosing those tools giving you twice as many options on the game table than any other faction gets is just creating a have/have not situation that hurts balance.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's amusing that after all the buffs to marines, BA essentially have identical problems on the table. Shows how terrible they were before.

All Marines have problems because of a bunch of math errors around the introduction of the "damage" stat in the Indexes, and because of a design team that's overly-generous at handing out AP. The BA are basically where they were before because the supplements have been handing other Legions stratagems that would be ludicrously broken if they could be applied to better units in an effort to compensate for the units not being very good.

No, they're better. But still suffer identical matchup problems. Can't get past guardsmen, tendency to overkill then die, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Short of GW going back in time and removing all the marine supplements there is not much they can do. It's beyond simple nerfs to adjust SN balance down due to the layers of abilities they can get between codex/supplement/PA expansion.

They basically need to time travel or give every other faction the same extra free later of modifiers/wargear/traits/strats. And not just quantity but quality for low/free cost that SM received.

It's almost like you aren't paying attention. Only Ironhands are too strong.

*if you define too strong solely as "winning top-level competitive tournaments."

Playing vs supplement marines who get twice as many psychic powers, relics, wl traits, strats, better CTs than you, doctrines and super-doctrines you don't get is the closest thing I've felt to trying to play the game as a faction that does not get a Decurion super-formation against armies that did have one in 7th ed.

Whacking the current top mole of Iron Hands and MOA will just lead someone to find the next super-combo. It's like when we had unrestricted soup detachments in early 8th with no subfaction bonuses, every army was like celestine leading guardsmen with Culexus Assassins or Malefic lords standing behind walls of brimstone horrors with a couple daemon princes floating around. Nerfing the ability to create crazy combos is better than nerfing individual offenders at creating diversity.

Don't just nerf MOA, remove the ability to use custom chapter tactics with chapter bonuses, make Codex Space Marines follow the same rules everyone else does.

Don't just nerf Iron Hands, make it so the contents of the supplements don't stack with the contents of codex 2.0. Marines having a diversity of tools in their toolbox is fine, especially if those tools offer a benefit over bringing soup. Choosing those tools giving you twice as many options on the game table than any other faction gets is just creating a have/have not situation that hurts balance.

I don't care for the chapter supplements, either.

 Ishagu wrote:
Iron Hands and Raven Guard have a high win rate against Tau. The Ultras don't.

That's the key point.


Marines are a faction that encompasses multiple Chapters. They are not all equal.
If anyone wants to say that Iron Hands and Centurions with the right chapter combination are too strong that would be perfectly reasonable. Blanket claims against the entire faction are not.

Off the bat, when a set of models has one hyper powerful way of playing, and one very strong but not as insane way of playing it that also has less flavor, you'll find that the best players with those models are just going to go towards the best option, dragging down the alternative throughout quality of playerbase. Ultramarines are still well and truly OP, just one of the least OP options in that dex so that is what it is.

Secondly, RG has a lower winrate than both Scars and Fists.

Thirdly, Thunderfire Cannon alone is better than anything you've mentioned yet, and is universal, and is the most played unit in competitive play at the moment.

Fourthly, where's these stats that show Ultramarines having a poor win rate vs Tau? is that sweeping claim based off anything other than you being unable to beat them?



Fifthly, and just to reinforce, arguing what's good in this game like it's a basketball point sheet and looking at nothing but win-rate statistics is so incredibly dense and I'm only doing it hopefully show you guys the folly of this and point out the holes in the claims you are making, because this is silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Short of GW going back in time and removing all the marine supplements there is not much they can do. It's beyond simple nerfs to adjust SN balance down due to the layers of abilities they can get between codex/supplement/PA expansion.

They basically need to time travel or give every other faction the same extra free later of modifiers/wargear/traits/strats. And not just quantity but quality for low/free cost that SM received.

It's almost like you aren't paying attention. Only Ironhands are too strong.

*if you define too strong solely as "winning top-level competitive tournaments."

His statement falls apart under that definition too. In the very latest weekend of competitive play, John Lennon, a very recognizable name in the tournament scene, got first place at a GT using pure Imperial Fists, beating out both Raven Guard, and Iron Hands. The weekend before that saw Fists winning two GT level events, as well as two for Raven Guard.

Marines are busted in every single supplement. The more competitive players just play the more competitive chapters more.

IH isn't the only marine faction that is over-performing. RG/WS soup and IF are outliers as well.

A lot of the OP marine/eldar lists are abusing the successor chapter rules. MA and the eldar equivalent have to go. Getting that many re-rolls for free and not being chapter locked to an otherwise terrible army (sorry salamanders but you guys were bad) has been proven to be game breaking.

"These next 3 months will probably be the litmus test for how GW will deal with issues into the future. If they fail (and you need to give it time to see if they fail) then we're in trouble."

The marine supplements have already been out for months and GW has failed to deal with that issue.

The swallowing the spider to catch the fly method of balance that GW has been using doesn't leave me with a lot of faith that things are going to get better. I'd love to be proven wrong but I don't see how this latest round of buffs can be seen as anything other than a monumental example of just how bad GW is at writing rules to balance their game (really good at writing rules to sell models though...)

I'd posit that the marine codex+supplements 2.0 was GWs attempt at balancing the game and we can all see how that turned out.

I don't see how GW buffs other factions their way out of this. Balancing to the level of IH/IF just leaves the other marine factions in the dust (like the gulliman days) and with the glacial release schedule leaves other armies (SW/DW) unplayable for the greater part of a year (SW don't get the PA treatment for 2 more books and have barely been playable all edition, putting them roughly 3/4 year out from the marine supplement release). GWs next balancing pass won't be until the end of April probably around the time the SW PA is released.

Agree that Eldar and Tau have the tools to play with the most optimized marine lists but instead of GW giving sensible buffs to struggling marine factions to bring 8th into as close to balanced as I've seen 40k they went buff crazy (to sell more books/models) and now 40k is back to an unbalanced mess that caused the implosion at the end of 7th.

Again, I'm probably looking at this through a lens of someone playing (or who used to play) in a competitive meta with under-performing factions but I though 8th was bad but bearable before. Since this new rounds of buffs 40k has become unplayable to me.

These are the people and tournaments in December who were top 10 win rates and all their associated detachments.

All of these are ITC.

[see below for corrected values]

So half as much Aeldari as Space Marines? color me surprised!

I don't think anyone is saying Aeldari are fine right now, but the idea that SM are just another Aeldari is so far off base. They are so much much more.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Iron Hands and Raven Guard have a high win rate against Tau. The Ultras don't.

That's the key point.


Marines are a faction that encompasses multiple Chapters. They are not all equal.
If anyone wants to say that Iron Hands and Centurions with the right chapter combination are too strong that would be perfectly reasonable. Blanket claims against the entire faction are not.

Off the bat, when a set of models has one hyper powerful way of playing, and one very strong but not as insane way of playing it that also has less flavor, you'll find that the best players with those models are just going to go towards the best option, dragging down the alternative throughout quality of playerbase. Ultramarines are still well and truly OP, just one of the least OP options in that dex so that is what it is.

Secondly, RG has a lower winrate than both Scars and Fists.

Thirdly, Thunderfire Cannon alone is better than anything you've mentioned yet, and is universal, and is the most played unit in competitive play at the moment.

Fourthly, where's these stats that show Ultramarines having a poor win rate vs Tau? is that sweeping claim based off anything other than you being unable to beat them?



Fifthly, and just to reinforce, arguing what's good in this game like it's a basketball point sheet and looking at nothing but win-rate statistics is so incredibly dense and I'm only doing it hopefully show you guys the folly of this and point out the holes in the claims you are making, because this is silly.


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the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Short of GW going back in time and removing all the marine supplements there is not much they can do. It's beyond simple nerfs to adjust SN balance down due to the layers of abilities they can get between codex/supplement/PA expansion.

They basically need to time travel or give every other faction the same extra free later of modifiers/wargear/traits/strats. And not just quantity but quality for low/free cost that SM received.

It's almost like you aren't paying attention. Only Ironhands are too strong.

*if you define too strong solely as "winning top-level competitive tournaments."

His statement falls apart under that definition too. In the very latest weekend of competitive play, John Lennon, a very recognizable name in the tournament scene, got first place at a GT using pure Imperial Fists, beating out both Raven Guard, and Iron Hands. The weekend before that saw Fists winning two GT level events, as well as two for Raven Guard.

Marines are busted in every single supplement. The more competitive players just play the more competitive chapters more.

I'm pretty sure I have been calling for nerf to IF super doctrine the entire thread. Also a few lists winning events does not make a point stronger. 1 event is not a trend. WR = trend.

You straight up ignore statstics showing non ironhands/IF marines being totally unremarkable compared to other codex even before the CA update which buffed basically every army and did nothing for supplement marines...I just don't know what to say. All marine supplements are OP because you say so I suppose. Seems reasonable.


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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
So half as much Aeldari as Space Marines? color me surprised!

I don't think anyone is saying Aeldari are fine right now, but the idea that SM are just another Aeldari is so far off base. They are so much much more.

They have between 3-4 times the play rate. Ofc they have more top lists if they are at a similar power level.

Sorry for some reason it kicked off the 100% winners. Fixing and reposting.