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2020/01/13 07:43:44
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Those ITC missions really were the problem the whole time!! /s
Also, looks like GW is going to 2k as default army size as well for their tourneys as well. Stupid ITC always behind the curve...
My favorite part was the game they streamed that barely got through turn 2.
To Martel's point there was a 150ish gaunt nid army there that was doing well. Something about just sitting on the objectives and knowing you can't kill that many fearless obsec bodies before time ran out. Yep, just the kind of game play I love to see encouraged by my mission design...
Cough the end of the Tao player game vs IH. In 2 instances the Tao argued about the ranges, the opponent did not get line breaker that was going to tie the game.
But what is obvious that the scary CWE new traits, did not overperform like they did in ITC. Who knows having bad table control and don`t get points when killing is not optimal.
Xeno go make topic "How to nerf power armor"
2020/01/13 08:20:32
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Those ITC missions really were the problem the whole time!! /s
Also, looks like GW is going to 2k as default army size as well for their tourneys as well. Stupid ITC always behind the curve...
My favorite part was the game they streamed that barely got through turn 2.
To Martel's point there was a 150ish gaunt nid army there that was doing well. Something about just sitting on the objectives and knowing you can't kill that many fearless obsec bodies before time ran out. Yep, just the kind of game play I love to see encouraged by my mission design...
Cough the end of the Tao player game vs IH. In 2 instances the Tao argued about the ranges, the opponent did not get line breaker that was going to tie the game.
But what is obvious that the scary CWE new traits, did not overperform like they did in ITC. Who knows having bad table control and don`t get points when killing is not optimal.
Xeno go make topic "How to nerf power armor"
You do realise grey knights wear power armour right?
2020/01/13 08:46:01
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
So of the 37 results we can see there are exactly 1 Ork, 1 Tyranid and 1 Necron list. Excellent.
I hope something is done to those factions that either can't soup or have very limited soup capabilities soon. The buffs given to factions that can soup if they go mono is not enough to discourage souping in the vast majority of cases and it is not an appropriate fix because no doubt GW will not offer similar buffs to those factions that can't soup (citing, simply, there is no need).
2020/01/13 08:48:23
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So of the 37 results we can see there are exactly 1 Ork, 1 Tyranid and 1 Necron list. Excellent.
I hope something is done to those factions that either can't soup or have very limited soup capabilities soon. The buffs given to factions that can soup if they go mono is not enough to discourage souping in the vast majority of cases and it is not an appropriate fix because no doubt GW will not offer similar buffs to those factions that can't soup (citing, simply, there is no need).
Atleast those factions still have a result unlike others
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/13 08:52:05
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So of the 37 results we can see there are exactly 1 Ork, 1 Tyranid and 1 Necron list. Excellent.
I hope something is done to those factions that either can't soup or have very limited soup capabilities soon. The buffs given to factions that can soup if they go mono is not enough to discourage souping in the vast majority of cases and it is not an appropriate fix because no doubt GW will not offer similar buffs to those factions that can't soup (citing, simply, there is no need).
Mixed imperium could be anything, so you can't say with certainty the factions with mono dex bonus are still souping, odds are those are they didn't.
Giving people a faction to ally with for soup shouldn't be an answer, fix the issues with the codex so they don't need an external crutch. Chaos seems to be an exception due to possible intentional overlap on rules between books.
Orks made the top 10 and the other 2 factions you mentioned were middle of the field. Power wouldn't be an issue based on that data.
2020/01/13 09:13:30
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So of the 37 results we can see there are exactly 1 Ork, 1 Tyranid and 1 Necron list. Excellent.
I hope something is done to those factions that either can't soup or have very limited soup capabilities soon. The buffs given to factions that can soup if they go mono is not enough to discourage souping in the vast majority of cases and it is not an appropriate fix because no doubt GW will not offer similar buffs to those factions that can't soup (citing, simply, there is no need).
That does not include the 10 or so players who dropped after the first day.
Interestingly given how many marines of all flavours there were they look to be doing just average at getting into the top 10. Loyalist PA is roughly half the armies present and half the top 10.
2020/01/13 09:33:20
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
I see Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari? GSC the only potential missing faction?
Dudeface wrote: Mixed imperium could be anything, so you can't say with certainty the factions with mono dex bonus are still souping, odds are those are they didn't.
Giving people a faction to ally with for soup shouldn't be an answer, fix the issues with the codex so they don't need an external crutch. Chaos seems to be an exception due to possible intentional overlap on rules between books.
Orks made the top 10 and the other 2 factions you mentioned were middle of the field. Power wouldn't be an issue based on that data.
Well the "GK" list was still soup so who knows what the lists were.
The Ork list made the top 10 due to hobby and player score (+8). Also one Ork list made the top 37. Doesn't sound as good does it? Particularly when compared to the 18 Imperium lists. The 6 Chaos lists. The 9 Aeldari lists.
2020/01/13 09:36:12
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/13 09:37:24
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Where do you get these numbers from? I count only 1 Ork list, 1 Tau list etc and you seem to have a lot more than 37 lists?
Either way - I don't really trust these breakdowns as the GK list was not pure and souped (though the main component of the list was GK) which is not identified from above.
I see Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari? GSC the only potential missing faction?
Dudeface wrote: Mixed imperium could be anything, so you can't say with certainty the factions with mono dex bonus are still souping, odds are those are they didn't.
Giving people a faction to ally with for soup shouldn't be an answer, fix the issues with the codex so they don't need an external crutch. Chaos seems to be an exception due to possible intentional overlap on rules between books.
Orks made the top 10 and the other 2 factions you mentioned were middle of the field. Power wouldn't be an issue based on that data.
Well the "GK" list was still soup so who knows what the lists were.
The Ork list made the top 10 due to hobby and player score (+8). Also one Ork list made the top 37. Doesn't sound as good does it? Particularly when compared to the 18 Imperium lists. The 6 Chaos lists. The 9 Aeldari lists.
There were only 8 lists higher than Orks on battle score, they were tied for the top 10 and certainly upper half of the field.
2020/01/13 10:12:25
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Dudeface wrote: There were only 8 lists higher than Orks on battle score, they were tied for the top 10 and certainly upper half of the field.
And there were 15 lists tied with Orks on battle score.
As I have said, a single list reaching the top 37 of an event is not an encouraging number. Or are you trying to suggest that Orks are competitive in the marine meta?
2020/01/13 10:14:16
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Dudeface wrote: There were only 8 lists higher than Orks on battle score, they were tied for the top 10 and certainly upper half of the field.
And there were 15 lists tied with Orks on battle score.
As I have said, a single list reaching the top 37 of an event is not an encouraging number. Or are you trying to suggest that Orks are competitive in the marine meta?
I'm trying to highlight that you can't blanket rule a faction as sucking or struggling when they can still manage a decent placement. I'd not brand them as competitive, but it does show a fair spread of armies still place highly.
2020/01/13 10:27:13
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Where do you get these numbers from? I count only 1 Ork list, 1 Tau list etc and you seem to have a lot more than 37 lists?
Either way - I don't really trust these breakdowns as the GK list was not pure and souped (though the main component of the list was GK) which is not identified from above.
.
Posted by the GW staffer on the chat during the stream.
It will follow whatever their rules were for faction on the day. I do not think they have faction awards for the GT events so perhaps they did not care that much anyway. It may just be self-reported as it has no impact on anything.
2020/01/13 11:39:44
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Dudeface wrote: There were only 8 lists higher than Orks on battle score, they were tied for the top 10 and certainly upper half of the field.
And there were 15 lists tied with Orks on battle score.
As I have said, a single list reaching the top 37 of an event is not an encouraging number. Or are you trying to suggest that Orks are competitive in the marine meta?
I'm trying to highlight that you can't blanket rule a faction as sucking or struggling when they can still manage a decent placement. I'd not brand them as competitive, but it does show a fair spread of armies still place highly.
I believe it shows a fair spread of factions that are able to soup, yea. I forgot to add that there's only one Tau list also. 1/37 is not a good ratio for any faction, not Necrons, Orks, Tyranids or Tau.
Any faction can manage a decent placement given favourable conditions - note the primary GK result. We already have the data to show how Crons, Orks and Nids can't compete in the current meta. If you remove the 2 top performing players (whose stats are outliers, really) Tau also nosedive. This event placings just highlights the facts we already know, in my opinion.
It will follow whatever their rules were for faction on the day. I do not think they have faction awards for the GT events so perhaps they did not care that much anyway. It may just be self-reported as it has no impact on anything.
Thanks and I agree on why the factions seem incorrect.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/13 11:41:37
2020/01/13 11:45:57
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Those ITC missions really were the problem the whole time!! /s
Also, looks like GW is going to 2k as default army size as well for their tourneys as well. Stupid ITC always behind the curve...
My favorite part was the game they streamed that barely got through turn 2.
To Martel's point there was a 150ish gaunt nid army there that was doing well. Something about just sitting on the objectives and knowing you can't kill that many fearless obsec bodies before time ran out. Yep, just the kind of game play I love to see encouraged by my mission design...
Cough the end of the Tao player game vs IH. In 2 instances the Tao argued about the ranges, the opponent did not get line breaker that was going to tie the game.
But what is obvious that the scary CWE new traits, did not overperform like they did in ITC. Who knows having bad table control and don`t get points when killing is not optimal.
Xeno go make topic "How to nerf power armor"
The board was also basically planet bowling ball. And stream hosts being proud of it. No place to hide! Their words...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 11:46:56
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/01/13 13:48:13
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Can someone tell me if the first level of terrain blocked LOS at this tournament?
Are these results from a propensity for these sorts of attendees to lean more fluffy?
From the discussion over on compe40k/r - yes, GW used ground floor LoS blocking for the first time. Could be an indicator of things to come...
And the results may lean more fluffy, but at the same time, it was an invitational - you had to finish in the top 30 of one of the previous 4 GT heats to be invited. That's actually quite a significant control on low quality players.
(Digging the stats btw)
2020/01/13 14:18:18
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
These boards make a lot more sense once you realize that this argument you've been dragged into is the *precise reason* this thread was created. Some posters just want to prove their superiority by "winning" these types of arguments. They believe they are right, and that people recognize that they're right. Regardless of evidence to the contrary. And they enjoy "proving" it via these threads.
The fact that you - and others - are right, that very few people believe them, or that they do nothing to further the hobby are all irrelevant to the purpose of these threads.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Many, many top players use that iPhone warhammer dice app for their games (I can't remember the name because I couldn't get it on my android device). I doubt they have a rigged version in their possession.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
December statistics, as interesting as they are, represent a tiny snapshot of the meta in a very odd place (because there are fewer large games, the stakes are lower and most players don't have time to play). Perhaps for a better read on the meta we should continue to follow 40k stats centre and see what the next few months brings?
Uhh - I've literally never played against a player using a dice ap. Literally never and I would probably ask them not to. Probably over 500 games at this time. Heck I watch a lot of these players games on twitch....they are using real dice. LOL. I am not even sure if dice ap is legal in ITC play.
That is very strong evidence for lack of experience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: Many, many top players use that iPhone warhammer dice app for their games (I can't remember the name because I couldn't get it on my android device). I doubt they have a rigged version in their possession.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
December statistics, as interesting as they are, represent a tiny snapshot of the meta in a very odd place (because there are fewer large games, the stakes are lower and most players don't have time to play). Perhaps for a better read on the meta we should continue to follow 40k stats centre and see what the next few months brings?
Xenomancers wrote: I for example have 3 sets of cheesex dice which I love. Legally purchased and they roll incredible without alteration. Is that cheating?
Yes. This kinda sounds like cheating.
How is that cheating? I did not alter the dice in any way. Is there any requirement to put your dice through statistical tests?
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
If you became prescient in a way where you always knew the output of a single particular die, but the die was not loaded, and you did nothing to change the output of the die, it's still cheating if you use it because of it's result. The cheating isn't in the act of manipulating things used in the game. The cheating is in manipulating the game. Consider MFA, and the kneeling Wraithlord. If someone modelled a kneeling, Brightlance-sniping Wraithlord with exsquisite detail and love, playing that Wraithlord is not MFA (although might still not be allowed for fairness). Someone else creates a wraithlord in a kneeling position so it's harder to hit, that's MFA. Even if the second player did a better job/made a nicer model, the first player did not violate MFA or cheat but the second player did.
There's no requirement to put dice through a statistical test. There is a requirement to not intentionally skew the game. So if you happen to have loaded dice truly unknowningly, that wouldn't be cheating (but would be just as likely loaded towards 1s or 4s as they would to 6s). But the moment you realize they're not fair dice, using them becomes cheating.
In this hypothetical, if you haven't realized they're unfair, you haven't cheated. But once you have noticed, the onus is on you to immediately stop using them. Once you suspect, the onus on you is to validate/invalidate them.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/01/13 14:30:25
2020/01/13 14:55:04
Subject: Re:Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
I like the way your thinking. It is like sports, nothing is illegal besides being caught doing something illegal.
Any faction can manage a decent placement given favourable conditions - note the primary GK result. We already have the data to show how Crons, Orks and Nids can't compete in the current meta. If you remove the 2 top performing players (whose stats are outliers, really) Tau also nosedive. This event placings just highlights the facts we already know, in my opinion.
the list consisted of 3 NDKs and 3x5 of strikes. That is like saying an army of 2 smash captin, mefiston and 3 units of scouts, and other armies is a Blood Angle one.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/01/13 15:04:34
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
Cheating also requires intent though, just like lying. Saying something that is not true in good faith is not lying, just as using a loaded die in good faith is not cheating.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2020/01/13 15:05:54
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
I like the way your thinking. It is like sports, nothing is illegal besides being caught doing something illegal.
You greatly misunderstood me. It's cheating if you cheat. If you cheat and don't get caught, it's still wrong, you still cheated.
The point was the act of creating things that can be used to cheat - such as loaded dice - is not relevant to cheating. Cheating is *using* the dice you know to be loaded. So it doesn't matter whether you loaded the dice or someone else did; if you knowingly skewed the game, you cheated.
2020/01/13 15:10:07
Subject: Re:Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
I like the way your thinking. It is like sports, nothing is illegal besides being caught doing something illegal.
No...just no. If that's what you took from that quote you really need to read it again. The quote is pointing out that it's the use of unfair dice, not creating them in the first place, that is illegal, regardless of how those unfair dice came about. It was in no way endorsing any form of cheating.
2020/01/13 15:10:55
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
Cheating also requires intent though, just like lying. Saying something that is not true in good faith is not lying, just as using a loaded die in good faith is not cheating.
Yes, it requires intent.
There as 6 dice in front of me. Lets say one of them is going to roll a 6, the others aren't, and I need a 6. If I pick the one that will roll a 6 without knowing it'll roll a 6, it's fair. If I pick it believing it has more than a 1/6th chance of rolling a 6, it's cheating.
It doesn't actually matter if the die is loaded. Or if I'm prescient. It only matters if I believe it is not a 1/6th chance of rolling a 6 and use it.
2020/01/13 15:11:56
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
MiguelFelstone wrote: they fixed the tournament, it was invite only. Hence why half the players wern't flavor_of_the_month SM.
Invitational, as in 'you had to finish in the top 30 of a previous qualitfying heat GT to be invited'. It's actually the opposite of what you're saying. You had to place in the final third of a GT to even play.
2020/01/13 15:13:20
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Yoyoyo wrote: And then lots of diversity in the 4-2 finishers.
Because they fixed the tournament, it was invite only. Hence why half the players wern't flavor_of_the_month SM.
Incorrect. The tournament required qualification through placing at previous heats. It was not some sort of curated invite list to maintain a balance of factions on GW's part. The qualification criteria were clearly defined before the heats and strictly adhered to.
2020/01/13 15:55:25
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
These boards make a lot more sense once you realize that this argument you've been dragged into is the *precise reason* this thread was created. Some posters just want to prove their superiority by "winning" these types of arguments. They believe they are right, and that people recognize that they're right. Regardless of evidence to the contrary. And they enjoy "proving" it via these threads.
The fact that you - and others - are right, that very few people believe them, or that they do nothing to further the hobby are all irrelevant to the purpose of these threads.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Many, many top players use that iPhone warhammer dice app for their games (I can't remember the name because I couldn't get it on my android device). I doubt they have a rigged version in their possession.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
December statistics, as interesting as they are, represent a tiny snapshot of the meta in a very odd place (because there are fewer large games, the stakes are lower and most players don't have time to play). Perhaps for a better read on the meta we should continue to follow 40k stats centre and see what the next few months brings?
Uhh - I've literally never played against a player using a dice ap. Literally never and I would probably ask them not to. Probably over 500 games at this time. Heck I watch a lot of these players games on twitch....they are using real dice. LOL. I am not even sure if dice ap is legal in ITC play.
That is very strong evidence for lack of experience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: Many, many top players use that iPhone warhammer dice app for their games (I can't remember the name because I couldn't get it on my android device). I doubt they have a rigged version in their possession.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
December statistics, as interesting as they are, represent a tiny snapshot of the meta in a very odd place (because there are fewer large games, the stakes are lower and most players don't have time to play). Perhaps for a better read on the meta we should continue to follow 40k stats centre and see what the next few months brings?
Xenomancers wrote: I for example have 3 sets of cheesex dice which I love. Legally purchased and they roll incredible without alteration. Is that cheating?
Yes. This kinda sounds like cheating.
How is that cheating? I did not alter the dice in any way. Is there any requirement to put your dice through statistical tests?
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
If you became prescient in a way where you always knew the output of a single particular die, but the die was not loaded, and you did nothing to change the output of the die, it's still cheating if you use it because of it's result. The cheating isn't in the act of manipulating things used in the game. The cheating is in manipulating the game. Consider MFA, and the kneeling Wraithlord. If someone modelled a kneeling, Brightlance-sniping Wraithlord with exsquisite detail and love, playing that Wraithlord is not MFA (although might still not be allowed for fairness). Someone else creates a wraithlord in a kneeling position so it's harder to hit, that's MFA. Even if the second player did a better job/made a nicer model, the first player did not violate MFA or cheat but the second player did.
There's no requirement to put dice through a statistical test. There is a requirement to not intentionally skew the game. So if you happen to have loaded dice truly unknowningly, that wouldn't be cheating (but would be just as likely loaded towards 1s or 4s as they would to 6s). But the moment you realize they're not fair dice, using them becomes cheating.
In this hypothetical, if you haven't realized they're unfair, you haven't cheated. But once you have noticed, the onus is on you to immediately stop using them. Once you suspect, the onus on you is to validate/invalidate them.
Literally no one in my area or on 100s of tables I looked at at LVO uses dice app. LOL. It basically proves you think its a gotcha moment but in fact dice apps must be exceptionally rare if I've never seen someone use one in game. Do you think I am lying about my gaming experience? There is a huge community where I live. 3 active game stores. No one uses dice app. Plus if someone asked to use one I'd say no. Use dice or if a dice roll is excessively large just take the average result.
Are you effing kidding me? Are you seriously telling me that using sets of chessex dice I purchased from game store and never altered is cheating? LOL laughable. It's not cheating to use factory dice you bought. No test is required to use dice. It's not even possible to tell if they are really off or are just an excessively improbable set of dice in a universe of infinite possibilities without rolling each one 100 times. Like I said...this is going on in tournaments. It goes on in FLGS. People throw away dice that roll like crap until they find a set they like. There is nothing wrong with that ether - people are allowed to buy and use whatever dice they want as long as they aren't physically altering them or buying them in an unfair state. Plus to go further - it's unlikely that tournament house dice would ensure everyone has balanced dice. At least people wouldn't be picking their dice - so it takes fate out of players hands.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/13 15:56:40
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/13 15:58:53
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
I keep saying that sometimes low terrain happens. You can't make assumptions about terrain. There is no standard, and plenty of historical battles were in pretty open areas.
I don't need validation on here to like what i like. If people dont like itc, dont play it. Just like i prefer to not play gw missions. Killing is always powerful if the player doing the killing understands how to exploit it, regardless of format.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 16:04:19
2020/01/13 16:00:24
Subject: Re:Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
I like the way your thinking. It is like sports, nothing is illegal besides being caught doing something illegal.
No...just no. If that's what you took from that quote you really need to read it again. The quote is pointing out that it's the use of unfair dice, not creating them in the first place, that is illegal, regardless of how those unfair dice came about. It was in no way endorsing any form of cheating.
I kind of disagree with this. If I saw someone making loaded dice. I'd pretty much suspect they would be intent on using them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I keep saying that sometimes low terrain happens. You can't make assumptions about terrain. There is no standard, and plenty of historical battles were in pretty open areas.
Xeno has stated that he plays solely to table his opponent into oblivion and that "standing around objectives a.k.a playing the mission is lame and boring" - Paraphrasing as I'm too lazy to look for the actual posts he has said this.
Also SM were trash tier despite new book because repulsor went up 15pts and Guiliman no longer rerolled ALL the wounds..
Basically unless his army can delete whole armies and table everyone its trash tier compared to whatever new hotnes sis at the time.
But flat out accusing top players of playing with loaded die/ cheating just because they won all of their games is reaching new heights for sure..
Uh yeah - duh that is boring. If I wanted to play a game where killing didn't mater I'd play shadespire. First floor LOS blocking makes infantry invulnerable. That is really dumb. I play the mode plenty though. It is far less enjoyable than just fighting it out. Obviously in order to win I can't ignore the objectives but the tabling approach takes away scoring from your opponent.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/13 16:08:42
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/13 16:24:51
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
These boards make a lot more sense once you realize that this argument you've been dragged into is the *precise reason* this thread was created. Some posters just want to prove their superiority by "winning" these types of arguments. They believe they are right, and that people recognize that they're right. Regardless of evidence to the contrary. And they enjoy "proving" it via these threads.
The fact that you - and others - are right, that very few people believe them, or that they do nothing to further the hobby are all irrelevant to the purpose of these threads.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Many, many top players use that iPhone warhammer dice app for their games (I can't remember the name because I couldn't get it on my android device). I doubt they have a rigged version in their possession.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
December statistics, as interesting as they are, represent a tiny snapshot of the meta in a very odd place (because there are fewer large games, the stakes are lower and most players don't have time to play). Perhaps for a better read on the meta we should continue to follow 40k stats centre and see what the next few months brings?
Uhh - I've literally never played against a player using a dice ap. Literally never and I would probably ask them not to. Probably over 500 games at this time. Heck I watch a lot of these players games on twitch....they are using real dice. LOL. I am not even sure if dice ap is legal in ITC play.
That is very strong evidence for lack of experience.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: Many, many top players use that iPhone warhammer dice app for their games (I can't remember the name because I couldn't get it on my android device). I doubt they have a rigged version in their possession.
I have to be honest - I think this thread was very dubiously created in the first place and has only devolved into off topic ramble at this point.
December statistics, as interesting as they are, represent a tiny snapshot of the meta in a very odd place (because there are fewer large games, the stakes are lower and most players don't have time to play). Perhaps for a better read on the meta we should continue to follow 40k stats centre and see what the next few months brings?
Xenomancers wrote: I for example have 3 sets of cheesex dice which I love. Legally purchased and they roll incredible without alteration. Is that cheating?
Yes. This kinda sounds like cheating.
How is that cheating? I did not alter the dice in any way. Is there any requirement to put your dice through statistical tests?
Loading the dice isn't cheating. I could, in theory, create hundreds of loaded dice. That isn't cheating. It's using the loaded dice that's cheating. Regardless of how they became loaded.
If you became prescient in a way where you always knew the output of a single particular die, but the die was not loaded, and you did nothing to change the output of the die, it's still cheating if you use it because of it's result. The cheating isn't in the act of manipulating things used in the game. The cheating is in manipulating the game. Consider MFA, and the kneeling Wraithlord. If someone modelled a kneeling, Brightlance-sniping Wraithlord with exsquisite detail and love, playing that Wraithlord is not MFA (although might still not be allowed for fairness). Someone else creates a wraithlord in a kneeling position so it's harder to hit, that's MFA. Even if the second player did a better job/made a nicer model, the first player did not violate MFA or cheat but the second player did.
There's no requirement to put dice through a statistical test. There is a requirement to not intentionally skew the game. So if you happen to have loaded dice truly unknowningly, that wouldn't be cheating (but would be just as likely loaded towards 1s or 4s as they would to 6s). But the moment you realize they're not fair dice, using them becomes cheating.
In this hypothetical, if you haven't realized they're unfair, you haven't cheated. But once you have noticed, the onus is on you to immediately stop using them. Once you suspect, the onus on you is to validate/invalidate them.
Literally no one in my area or on 100s of tables I looked at at LVO uses dice app. LOL. It basically proves you think its a gotcha moment but in fact dice apps must be exceptionally rare if I've never seen someone use one in game. Do you think I am lying about my gaming experience? There is a huge community where I live. 3 active game stores. No one uses dice app. Plus if someone asked to use one I'd say no. Use dice or if a dice roll is excessively large just take the average result.
Funny how stats are the gold standard proof positive of anything you say, but the minute statistical likelihoods go against your narrative it's made up BS drummed up purely to make you look bad. Roughly 5-10% of the people I've played have used dice apps. Others on the forums also suggest dice apps aren't never seen in their experience. It's possible you're as extensively-played as you claim, but the odds of your experience being representative of every experience is *painfully low* if you've never seen a single instance of something many of us see not-that-infrequently.
Are you effing kidding me? Are you seriously telling me that using sets of chessex dice I purchased from game store and never altered is cheating? LOL laughable.
So it's not cheating if you pay someone else to load your dice for you?
It's not cheating to use factory dice you bought. No test is required to use dice. It's not even possible to tell if they are really off or are just an excessively improbable set of dice in a universe of infinite possibilities without rolling each one 100 times.
You don't need to prove. Only believe. If you believe they're loaded, no test is required; using them is cheating. If you don't believe they're loaded, no test is required; using them is not cheated. Whether they actually are loaded is actually academic - if you used fair dice beleiving them loaded, you cheated, but failed at it.
If you have reason to believe dice are loaded, you are free to test them. Testing them may give you reason to believe they are not loaded (or more reason to beleive they are). In either case, we're back to the initial state, where you believe them loaded or not. And cheating remains dependent on whether you believe them loaded and use them.
Like I said...this is going on in tournaments. It goes on in FLGS. People throw away dice that roll like crap until they find a set they like. There is nothing wrong with that ether - people are allowed to buy and use whatever dice they want as long as they aren't physically altering them or buying them in an unfair state.
Only because it's enjoyable to be superstitious. I know a lot of players who have "favorite dice" that always do well by them. Or who throw away dice because they suck. Even when playing, I'll often keep using the dice that rolled 6s and stop using those that rolled 1s. But only for entertainment value. None of us actually think our "favorite dice" are actually loaded in our favor. I've actually gone so far as to test the "well performing" and "poor performing" dice of mine after a game (a couple times the odds seemed insane), and saw no variance. These are things people do for fun. Like having someone blow on your dice at the craps table, or wearing your lucky shirt when bowling.
If there were actual reason to believe that the die that just rolled a 6 is more likely to roll a 6 the next time you used it, reusing it intentionally would be cheating. But nobody is silly enough to think that these superstitious acts actually impact the result.
Plus to go further - it's unlikely that tournament house dice would ensure everyone has balanced dice. At least people wouldn't be picking their dice - so it takes fate out of players hands.
That's because we can generally trust that nobody (or almost nobody) is intentionally using loaded dice. So the distribution of unfair dice, if they're present, is unbiased. In situations where you can't trust that, the house does provide appropriate materials. Poker, for instance, is almost always played with house cards.
But the presence of asshats is small enough in 40k that we don't worry about it that much. Almost everyone knows what cheating is, and almost everyone doesn't do it.
2020/01/13 16:32:43
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
