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The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

wasnt that example talking about how using chessex dice meant you were automatically cheating? because at my gamestore theyre the only available dice (or the official, overpriced, GW ones) and i didnt know they had balance issues before coming to dakka. Was i a cheater before? and am i a cheater now?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

wasnt that example talking about how using chessex dice meant you were automatically cheating? because at my gamestore theyre the only available dice (or the official, overpriced, GW ones) and i didnt know they had balance issues before coming to dakka. Was i a cheater before? and am i a cheater now?

There is an absolutely wonderful 45 minute video of a crazy man who calls himself "the colonel" or something ranting about the evils of chessex dice somewhere. It's my favorite thing ever.

I love that the internet enables you to find the one guy who cares more about one thing than anyone else on the planet cares about that thing and because it's on a screen you don't have to know what he smells like or dodge his spittle.

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

wasnt that example talking about how using chessex dice meant you were automatically cheating? because at my gamestore theyre the only available dice (or the official, overpriced, GW ones) and i didnt know they had balance issues before coming to dakka. Was i a cheater before? and am i a cheater now?

There is an absolutely wonderful 45 minute video of a crazy man who calls himself "the colonel" or something ranting about the evils of chessex dice somewhere. It's my favorite thing ever.

Mine must have been loaded wrong, as I I've never rolled well enough with them to be suspected of cheating. Even rolled snake eyes on a hit that would have hit on anything but (no, I didn't say it). Ruined the strategy for the whole turn as I had spent resources for a set up and the delivery afterward was crucial for the resolution.

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

You are really going to far with this...You mean cheesex...the largest dice manufacturer in the world? There is a big difference between paying someone to load your dice and then using them and buy a brick of dice off the shelf that is supposed to be balanced. I think everyone can acknowledge that unless you are buying casino dice - NONE of them will be perfect. For me it's more of a feeling - I have never tested them. I still roll tons of 1's. If anything they are biased towards 4's. However - I am under no responsibility - morally or competitively to throw away the legal dice I paid for because I think they are lucky. Nether are any of the top players on the ITC tour. The way to handle this is not make people throw away their bought and paid for supposed to be balanced dice. The way to handle it is ITC tournaments should sell bricks of dice you have to use in the tournament and not release the kind of dice they will be using. 10 bucks on top of your entry fee - you can buy more for 10 more bucks and you can keep them! ESP for the really large tournaments. Though - events of 50+ should easy be able to manage this with the entry fee pricing.

Forget dice app. If this game goes the way of dice AP I will straight up quit and spend my money somewhere else. The most fun part about this game is rolling dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

wasnt that example talking about how using chessex dice meant you were automatically cheating? because at my gamestore theyre the only available dice (or the official, overpriced, GW ones) and i didnt know they had balance issues before coming to dakka. Was i a cheater before? and am i a cheater now?

There is an absolutely wonderful 45 minute video of a crazy man who calls himself "the colonel" or something ranting about the evils of chessex dice somewhere. It's my favorite thing ever.

Mine must have been loaded wrong, as I I've never rolled well enough with them to be suspected of cheating. Even rolled snake eyes on a hit that would have hit on anything but (no, I didn't say it). Ruined the strategy for the whole turn as I had spent resources for a set up and the delivery afterward was crucial for the resolution.

I command reroll 1's into 1's all the time with chessex. I think the real issue is that they might be slightly imperfect - not loaded. So every dice in your brick likely has a bias. This is true for all non casino level dice. However - with chessex the rate of imperfection might be a little higher than others.I just notice that with larger dice rolls of like 20+ there seems to be an awfully lot of 5/6 in there some times - probably more than their should be after 100's of rolls. However - it's not to an absurd degree.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think everyone can acknowledge that unless you are buying casino dice - NONE of them will be perfect. For me it's more of a feeling - I have never tested them. I still roll tons of 1's. If anything they are biased towards 4's. However - I am under no responsibility - morally or competitively to throw away the legal dice I paid for because I think they are lucky. Nether are any of the top players on the ITC tour. The way to handle this is not make people throw away their bought and paid for supposed to be balanced dice. The way to handle it is ITC tournaments should sell bricks of dice you have to use in the tournament and not release the kind of dice they will be using.

The way to handle this is to let people just use their own dice because it isn't actually an issue.

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think everyone can acknowledge that unless you are buying casino dice - NONE of them will be perfect. For me it's more of a feeling - I have never tested them. I still roll tons of 1's. If anything they are biased towards 4's. However - I am under no responsibility - morally or competitively to throw away the legal dice I paid for because I think they are lucky. Nether are any of the top players on the ITC tour. The way to handle this is not make people throw away their bought and paid for supposed to be balanced dice. The way to handle it is ITC tournaments should sell bricks of dice you have to use in the tournament and not release the kind of dice they will be using.

The way to handle this is to let people just use their own dice because it isn't actually an issue.

Prove it. Prove it is not a problem.

add 10 bucks to your tournament buy in? For piece of mind that no one is cheating you and you get to keep the dice? It is a win win. To deny such a good suggestion is actually somewhat fishy...Are you adamant against the proposal that some people you play with likely are cheating you beit unknowingly or in some cases deliberately? Or is it the other reason? In my LGS I can confirm 3 cheaters who were caught with loaded dice and banned from the stores. 2 of them were at local tournaments with 25 dollar prices....what do you think it's like with a 5000$ price?

Unless you're playing some tournament where the TO tells you exactly what dice is and isn't allowed, just use your store bought stuff. They might have slight biases, but unless they're unbalanced to the point where you roll a certain result 1/3rd or more of the time, no one is gonna notice or care.

 flandarz wrote:
Unless you're playing some tournament where the TO tells you exactly what dice is and isn't allowed, just use your store bought stuff. They might have slight biases, but unless they're unbalanced to the point where you roll a certain result 1/3rd or more of the time, no one is gonna notice or care.

Were not talking FLGS here though. We are talking about big ITC tournaments with money on the line. Also - thank you for helping me out. You are right. People wont notice.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think everyone can acknowledge that unless you are buying casino dice - NONE of them will be perfect. For me it's more of a feeling - I have never tested them. I still roll tons of 1's. If anything they are biased towards 4's. However - I am under no responsibility - morally or competitively to throw away the legal dice I paid for because I think they are lucky. Nether are any of the top players on the ITC tour. The way to handle this is not make people throw away their bought and paid for supposed to be balanced dice. The way to handle it is ITC tournaments should sell bricks of dice you have to use in the tournament and not release the kind of dice they will be using.

The way to handle this is to let people just use their own dice because it isn't actually an issue.

Prove it. Prove it is not a problem.

No, that's not how this works. You made a claim (many pages back now) that top ITC players use loaded dice. The burden of proof is on you to back up that claim, not deflect that burden onto others.

Slipspace wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think everyone can acknowledge that unless you are buying casino dice - NONE of them will be perfect. For me it's more of a feeling - I have never tested them. I still roll tons of 1's. If anything they are biased towards 4's. However - I am under no responsibility - morally or competitively to throw away the legal dice I paid for because I think they are lucky. Nether are any of the top players on the ITC tour. The way to handle this is not make people throw away their bought and paid for supposed to be balanced dice. The way to handle it is ITC tournaments should sell bricks of dice you have to use in the tournament and not release the kind of dice they will be using.

The way to handle this is to let people just use their own dice because it isn't actually an issue.

Prove it. Prove it is not a problem.

No, that's not how this works. You made a claim (many pages back now) that top ITC players use loaded dice. The burden of proof is on you to back up that claim, not deflect that burden onto others.

LOL - all I need to do is prove they are using their own dice (which can all have a bias). That is already proven. They might be cheating and not even know it.

I'm not asking you to prove a negative. That would be impossible. I could show you lots of material that supports my claim that chessex dice aren't very balanced but other dice too. That would be a waste of my time though...this is something we have all see at somepoint in our lives. There were even several post in dakka years back discussing dice and putting them through 1000's of rolls to test them. HInt...none of the dice performed great. Some were near perfect though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think everyone can acknowledge that unless you are buying casino dice - NONE of them will be perfect. For me it's more of a feeling - I have never tested them. I still roll tons of 1's. If anything they are biased towards 4's. However - I am under no responsibility - morally or competitively to throw away the legal dice I paid for because I think they are lucky. Nether are any of the top players on the ITC tour. The way to handle this is not make people throw away their bought and paid for supposed to be balanced dice. The way to handle it is ITC tournaments should sell bricks of dice you have to use in the tournament and not release the kind of dice they will be using.

The way to handle this is to let people just use their own dice because it isn't actually an issue.

Prove it. Prove it is not a problem.

No, that's not how this works. You made a claim (many pages back now) that top ITC players use loaded dice. The burden of proof is on you to back up that claim, not deflect that burden onto others.

LOL - all I need to do is prove they are using their own dice (which can all have a bias). That is already proven. They might be cheating and not even know it.

I'm not asking you to prove a negative. That would be impossible. I could show you lots of material that supports my claim that chessex dice aren't very balanced but other dice too. That would be a waste of my time though...this is something we have all see at somepoint in our lives. There were even several post in dakka years back discussing dice and putting them through 1000's of rolls to test them. HInt...none of the dice performed great. Some were near perfect though.

You directly accused at least one player of cheating, with no proof whatsoever:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - I am pretty sure a lot of those really top players are using loaded dice...because they don't control for it. Last year I think Nayden won 46 consecutive games. The only way to do that in a dice game is to cheat.

That's what kicked off this whole tangent about dice. That's not a "oh he's accidentally using biased dice" comment. That's an outright accusation of cheating. You have no proof of this statement yet demand proof of others, proof of a negative no less.

I think most dice that aren't actually loaded are gonna be just fine either at the FLGS or at a tournament. If you get a 6 190 times out of a thousand instead of 166.7, as I said before, no one is gonna notice or care.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

You are really going to far with this...You mean cheesex...the largest dice manufacturer in the world? There is a big difference between paying someone to load your dice and then using them and buy a brick of dice off the shelf that is supposed to be balanced. I think everyone can acknowledge that unless you are buying casino dice - NONE of them will be perfect. For me it's more of a feeling - I have never tested them. I still roll tons of 1's. If anything they are biased towards 4's. However - I am under no responsibility - morally or competitively to throw away the legal dice I paid for because I think they are lucky. Nether are any of the top players on the ITC tour. The way to handle this is not make people throw away their bought and paid for supposed to be balanced dice. The way to handle it is ITC tournaments should sell bricks of dice you have to use in the tournament and not release the kind of dice they will be using. 10 bucks on top of your entry fee - you can buy more for 10 more bucks and you can keep them! ESP for the really large tournaments. Though - events of 50+ should easy be able to manage this with the entry fee pricing.

Forget dice app. If this game goes the way of dice AP I will straight up quit and spend my money somewhere else. The most fun part about this game is rolling dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

wasnt that example talking about how using chessex dice meant you were automatically cheating? because at my gamestore theyre the only available dice (or the official, overpriced, GW ones) and i didnt know they had balance issues before coming to dakka. Was i a cheater before? and am i a cheater now?

There is an absolutely wonderful 45 minute video of a crazy man who calls himself "the colonel" or something ranting about the evils of chessex dice somewhere. It's my favorite thing ever.

Mine must have been loaded wrong, as I I've never rolled well enough with them to be suspected of cheating. Even rolled snake eyes on a hit that would have hit on anything but (no, I didn't say it). Ruined the strategy for the whole turn as I had spent resources for a set up and the delivery afterward was crucial for the resolution.

I command reroll 1's into 1's all the time with chessex. I think the real issue is that they might be slightly imperfect - not loaded. So every dice in your brick likely has a bias. This is true for all non casino level dice. However - with chessex the rate of imperfection might be a little higher than others.I just notice that with larger dice rolls of like 20+ there seems to be an awfully lot of 5/6 in there some times - probably more than their should be after 100's of rolls. However - it's not to an absurd degree.

I command reroll 1's into 1's all the time

I think the real issue is

 Xenomancers wrote:
likely has a bias

You are far more likely to remember events that appear to be patterns than events that appear to be random.

Two numbers that are the same happening one after another makes monkey brain go hee hoo pattern remember maybe find food.

Shiny dice cube make monkey brain go hee hoo pick up shiny good berries, gather in palm.

^ This isn't Facebook, it's a pretty safe bet we all know what Confirmation Bias is.

 flandarz wrote:
I think most dice that aren't actually loaded are gonna be just fine either at the FLGS or at a tournament. If you get a 6 190 times out of a thousand instead of 166.7, as I said before, no one is gonna notice or care.

Yes you are absolutely right. No one will notice you rolling 14% better than you should. If you are always rolling 14% better you are going to win more games though. All things being equal but ones dice roll statistically better. You will win almost all your games. That is my point. Dice need to be controlled in tournaments. Not sure why this idea gets any resistance. I am sure it is quite puzzling.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I think most dice that aren't actually loaded are gonna be just fine either at the FLGS or at a tournament. If you get a 6 190 times out of a thousand instead of 166.7, as I said before, no one is gonna notice or care.

Yes you are absolutely right. No one will notice you rolling 14% better than you should. If you are always rolling 14% better you are going to win more games though. All things being equal but ones dice roll statistically better. You will win almost all your games. That is my point. Dice need to be controlled in tournaments. Not sure why this idea gets any resistance. I am sure it is quite puzzling.

Flip it on it's head. If there is rolling variation between players (because probability) and all other variables are equal, those that happen to roll slightly better are more likely to wind up in top tourney spots.

Edit: Emphasis on all other variables being equal. As though army build and skill aren't a thing.

Rolling 14% better does not result in winning "almost all your games" unless you were already at a significant advantage (skill, list, etc.). Assuming two people of equal skill and using the same exact army list, you can reasonably assume that they would each win 50% of the time. If one person's dice rolled 14% better, the W/L ratio would shift to 57/43. Which is why I said no one is going to notice or care, unless you're using literal cheat dice.

I'd also be surprised if any non-weighted dice had as much as a 14% swing in results.

Edit: if you want to visualize what 14% better rolls look like, here's some math. Assuming 14% better means you roll 4s, 5s, and 6s 14% more often than usual, you'd be looking at rolling each of these 19% of the time you roll the dice. Which means you'd still have a 43% chance to roll a 3, 2, or 1. It's extremely minor.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

You are really going to far with this...You mean cheesex...the largest dice manufacturer in the world?

No, I didn't mean Cheesex. I meant anyone. It's possible Cheesex loads their dice. But you're the one claiming they're loading their dice, and the one that believes it. I've made neither claim.

There is a big difference between paying someone to load your dice and then using them and buy a brick of dice off the shelf that is supposed to be balanced.

Of course. In the first case, you believe the dice are unfair, and thus are cheating. In the second case, you likely believe the dice are fair, and thus are not cheating. On the other hand, buying off-the-shelf dice in some way (whether that's from a particular store, a particular brand, or whatever) with the intention to wind up with loaded dice, then using them, certainly is cheating.

The big gap, however, is the difference between "These dice are skewed a little in unknown directions" and "These dice are skewed in a known, desirable direction". The first case is indistinguishable from fair dice; if the skew direction is independent of purpose, then the result is perfectly fairly random, even if the individual dice are not. The second is cheating.

I think everyone can acknowledge that unless you are buying casino dice - NONE of them will be perfect.

Nothing - not even "casino dice" - will ever be perfect. We have to settle, one way or another, from "Insignificantly biased by intent". Which even trash-tier dice with a random skew fulfill.

For me it's more of a feeling - I have never tested them. I still roll tons of 1's. If anything they are biased towards 4's. However - I am under no responsibility - morally or competitively to throw away the legal dice I paid for because I think they are lucky. Nether are any of the top players on the ITC tour. The way to handle this is not make people throw away their bought and paid for supposed to be balanced dice.

Nobody (other than you) is saying otherwise. "Luck" is when things go your way without you causing it to go your way. In other words, "Lucky Dice" are dice you think will roll well, but you have no reason to believe have cause to roll well. Because if you believe they have cause to roll well - whether because you think they're biased, or because you can see the future - it's not luck anymore. It's cheating.

The way to handle it is ITC tournaments should sell bricks of dice you have to use in the tournament and not release the kind of dice they will be using. 10 bucks on top of your entry fee - you can buy more for 10 more bucks and you can keep them! ESP for the really large tournaments. Though - events of 50+ should easy be able to manage this with the entry fee pricing.

Or we can just let most people just use their dice. So they can enjoy their dice. Loaded/biased dice are a potential problem, but can be spot-checked for. Your solution is worse than the problem.

 Charistoph wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The belief that the Stompa is good isn't even the most bonkers thing about this thread.

The belief that it's not cheating if you use dice someone else loaded is what's blowing my mind.

wasnt that example talking about how using chessex dice meant you were automatically cheating? because at my gamestore theyre the only available dice (or the official, overpriced, GW ones) and i didnt know they had balance issues before coming to dakka. Was i a cheater before? and am i a cheater now?

There is an absolutely wonderful 45 minute video of a crazy man who calls himself "the colonel" or something ranting about the evils of chessex dice somewhere. It's my favorite thing ever.

Mine must have been loaded wrong, as I I've never rolled well enough with them to be suspected of cheating. Even rolled snake eyes on a hit that would have hit on anything but (no, I didn't say it). Ruined the strategy for the whole turn as I had spent resources for a set up and the delivery afterward was crucial for the resolution.

I command reroll 1's into 1's all the time with chessex. I think the real issue is that they might be slightly imperfect - not loaded. So every dice in your brick likely has a bias. This is true for all non casino level dice.

No die will be perfect. They're all probably biased. The strength and direction of those biases, though, are sufficiently small and random enough to not regularly align with the user's interests, so it's really not a problem.

However - with chessex the rate of imperfection might be a little higher than others.I just notice that with larger dice rolls of like 20+ there seems to be an awfully lot of 5/6 in there some times - probably more than their should be after 100's of rolls. However - it's not to an absurd degree.

You're arguing a noticeable bias towards 5s and 6s even in batches as small as 20 on Chessex D6s? I'm going to have to call BS on that. Some quick googling shows some reasonable distributions on most Chessex dice, with the one dissenting paper finding a skew towards rolling *1*, not 5 or 6. You're going to have to put up or shut up on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I'm fairly sure my dice are even more loaded to 1s than yours. I lost Asurmen in 6th to overwatch from 6 Sternguard. Failed 3 of 5 2+ *rerollables*. Clearly my dice are even more loaded!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I think most dice that aren't actually loaded are gonna be just fine either at the FLGS or at a tournament. If you get a 6 190 times out of a thousand instead of 166.7, as I said before, no one is gonna notice or care.

Yes you are absolutely right. No one will notice you rolling 14% better than you should. If you are always rolling 14% better you are going to win more games though. All things being equal but ones dice roll statistically better. You will win almost all your games. That is my point. Dice need to be controlled in tournaments. Not sure why this idea gets any resistance. I am sure it is quite puzzling.

Flip it on it's head. If there is rolling variation between players (because probability) and all other variables are equal, those that happen to roll slightly better are more likely to wind up in top tourney spots.

Edit: Emphasis on all other variables being equal. As though army build and skill aren't a thing.

Rule of large numbers and regression to the mean. As the number of dice rolls increase, the variance between how well individual players' rolled (on fair-enough dice) plummets.

I honestly feel that players need to share the dice at the table. I should just roll my saves from your successful attacks and vice versa.

I don't get the strange reluctance to let someone else touch your dice. Would speed up the game and disincentivize any type of dice shenanigans.

No pulling out your special dice for a particular roll. Your dice in a pile (or piles because pre-sorting batches of dice is helpful) and only use dice on the table.

bananathug wrote:
I honestly feel that players need to share the dice at the table. I should just roll my saves from your successful attacks and vice versa.

I don't get the strange reluctance to let someone else touch your dice. Would speed up the game and disincentivize any type of dice shenanigans.

No pulling out your special dice for a particular roll. Your dice in a pile (or piles because pre-sorting batches of dice is helpful) and only use dice on the table.

That's crazytalk. Everyone knows it's bad luck to use your opponent's dice.

Bharring wrote:

bananathug wrote:
I honestly feel that players need to share the dice at the table. I should just roll my saves from your successful attacks and vice versa.

I don't get the strange reluctance to let someone else touch your dice. Would speed up the game and disincentivize any type of dice shenanigans.

No pulling out your special dice for a particular roll. Your dice in a pile (or piles because pre-sorting batches of dice is helpful) and only use dice on the table.

That's crazytalk. Everyone knows it's bad luck to use your opponent's dice.

100% True. Can confirm!

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

bananathug wrote:
I honestly feel that players need to share the dice at the table. I should just roll my saves from your successful attacks and vice versa.

I don't get the strange reluctance to let someone else touch your dice. Would speed up the game and disincentivize any type of dice shenanigans.

No pulling out your special dice for a particular roll. Your dice in a pile (or piles because pre-sorting batches of dice is helpful) and only use dice on the table.

That's crazytalk. Everyone knows it's bad luck to use your opponent's dice.

100% True. Can confirm!

No it's fine. You just have to make the appropriate signs and prayers to the Dice Gods first.

Slipspace wrote:
You directly accused at least one player of cheating, with no proof whatsoever:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - I am pretty sure a lot of those really top players are using loaded dice...because they don't control for it. Last year I think Nayden won 46 consecutive games. The only way to do that in a dice game is to cheat.

That's what kicked off this whole tangent about dice. That's not a "oh he's accidentally using biased dice" comment. That's an outright accusation of cheating. You have no proof of this statement yet demand proof of others, proof of a negative no less.

The dice-chat flak screen seems to be working, mind.

What happened to the stats discussion from 8 pages ago?

sieGermans wrote:
What happened to the stats discussion from 8 pages ago?

It will come back. No new tournaments to chew on yet. It will be an ever-evolving debate as the constant influences of new books will be shaping the meta for a very long time.

Dudeface wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Maybe Martel is playing BA with like nothing but melee troops? So he doesn't have the shooting to cut down chaff, he has to get them in melee which having a ton of dudes prevents from getting to the choice bits/objective/what have you.

That's the only way I can think he's having so many issues with hordes. It would explain why he prefers ITC because with the anti-horde secondary he's at least getting VP for killing the screening chaff while with the CA missions he doesn't get squat for killing 100 guys if they prevent him from getting to an objective or whatnot.

This is a reasonable assumption but he claims to get his clock cleaned by ranged firepower all the time, so he's not in melee but simultaneously not shooting anything.

This. If he had any real confidence in his own statements, he would share his list. He outright refuses to share what he's actually running, because there's a very real part of him that recognises that the list he has written is NOT competitive and any semi-decent player will instantly be able to identify the holes within.



We only had 4 events over the weekend, and 1300 pts of unplayable BA managed to get 1st place at Critical Hit GT last weekend. Watch the results keep rolling in while the players who've always struggled no matter tier, keep struggling.

I just don't have a set list atm. I realize I probably need autobolters for starters. I also refuse to use leviathan dreads. I've also fired jump pack DC because of the issues I'm having. Sounds like Red Ultramarines are the future.

I don't think BA are unplayable, I just don't think they are that much better off than before match-up wise. They beat what they could beat before PA and lose to what they lost to before PA. Extra attacks for BA looks great on paper until you put it into practice.

I see the winner souped in TFCs. That fixes the issue I'm having, I suppose. Of course, I don't own TFCs because BA have never been able to use them. The rest of the list I would never pick to win anything, to be honest. Especially so many fragile DC.

that's a fair enough response, though I still disagree with you.

And if you havent even landed on a good way to play the army yet I don't think you should be saying where they fit balance wise. Also if you refuse to soup in even a single small detachment for one unit, you aren't playing the army to its fullest. Cause this logic Knights are a bottom tier faction since pure solo knights have no pull.

Martel732 wrote:
I just don't have a set list atm. I realize I probably need autobolters for starters. I also refuse to use leviathan dreads. I've also fired jump pack DC because of the issues I'm having. Sounds like Red Ultramarines are the future.

I don't think BA are unplayable, I just don't think they are that much better off than before match-up wise. They beat what they could beat before PA and lose to what they lost to before PA. Extra attacks for BA looks great on paper until you put it into practice.

I see the winner souped in TFCs. That fixes the issue I'm having, I suppose. Of course, I don't own TFCs because BA have never been able to use them. The rest of the list I would never pick to win anything, to be honest. Especially so many fragile DC.

Why won't you use leviathans? Don't like the model? Allergic to resin?