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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/08 13:10:18
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I see from time to time GW models being sold in box marked as ,,Apocalypse". Are they are different from normal models? They look identical to normal GW models as displayed and I couldn't tell a difference when I saw one such example.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/08 13:11:05
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/08 13:37:13
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Norn Queen
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They are the same. They are just "army starter/expansions" that released with apoc.
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/08 19:11:04
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thank you. I remember it was confusing for me at first also with Titans. Having few types of same Imperial Knights, Titans for vastly different prices without clear way to tell why it is so (for an outsider).
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"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/08 21:14:51
Subject: Re:Apocalypse models
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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it used to be back in the days before 6th edition or so, that super heavy units where specificly "apoclypse only" 6th edition introduced optional rules to regularly use the, in 7th they where part of the norm, and in 8th edition the distinction between super heavy and normal vehicles largely fell away. so yeah now there aren't any apoclypse specific models.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/09 06:23:40
Subject: Re:Apocalypse models
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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BrianDavion wrote:it used to be back in the days before 6th edition or so, that super heavy units where specificly "apoclypse only" 6th edition introduced optional rules to regularly use the, in 7th they where part of the norm, and in 8th edition the distinction between super heavy and normal vehicles largely fell away. so yeah now there aren't any apoclypse specific models.
That said GW has gone through the Imperial Armour Indexes and applied massive points hikes to every FW superheavy just to keep them out of regular games, so while there may technically be no Apocalypse-specific models there are for practical purposes plenty.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/09 09:06:48
Subject: Re:Apocalypse models
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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AnomanderRake wrote:BrianDavion wrote:it used to be back in the days before 6th edition or so, that super heavy units where specificly "apoclypse only" 6th edition introduced optional rules to regularly use the, in 7th they where part of the norm, and in 8th edition the distinction between super heavy and normal vehicles largely fell away. so yeah now there aren't any apoclypse specific models.
That said GW has gone through the Imperial Armour Indexes and applied massive points hikes to every FW superheavy just to keep them out of regular games, so while there may technically be no Apocalypse-specific models there are for practical purposes plenty.
Yes because a fellblade is obviously equal to 2.11 baneblades. And knights are way easier to deal with than a typhon. And don't forget about all those other non apocalypse units that got drops in ca like the khorne lord of skulls, wraithknight, and storm surge.
Oh and the astreus. But wait it's fw. But it's primaris so it obviously needed a buff.
So basically just hellforged/relic super heavys. Which are way more op than all those others. And the only csm super heavys other than the aforementioned godawful looking klos.
And don't forget about the poor stompa and it's a gw plastic kit.
Yup good balancing job there gw.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/09 12:26:41
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Well, W40k is hardly a competitive game. Only minority cares about those official tournaments. Club could easily release point fixes for their tournaments. We for example had whole cheat tables for our Warmachine tournament last week. Most games will be played casually either way and it is very easy to agree with your opponent upon reasonable point prices for your forgeworld units. You both are here to have fun game for both of you and to build gaming relationship. It is not like you have an infinite supply of dudes to play with, every person in a hobby is irreplaceable as they are few in number and each with their unique playstyle and personality which you might not like. We had only 10 - 11 people in last tournament and that was quite a lot by our community's standards. There isn't many people to play with, I'm interested in Fire and Sword game, but there is literally just 1 person who recently is building those models...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/09 12:30:09
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/09 13:45:22
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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Ernestas wrote:Well, W40k is hardly a competitive game. Only minority cares about those official tournaments. Club could easily release point fixes for their tournaments. We for example had whole cheat tables for our Warmachine tournament last week. Most games will be played casually either way and it is very easy to agree with your opponent upon reasonable point prices for your forgeworld units. You both are here to have fun game for both of you and to build gaming relationship. It is not like you have an infinite supply of dudes to play with, every person in a hobby is irreplaceable as they are few in number and each with their unique playstyle and personality which you might not like. We had only 10 - 11 people in last tournament and that was quite a lot by our community's standards. There isn't many people to play with, I'm interested in Fire and Sword game, but there is literally just 1 person who recently is building those models...
I'm a casual player, and I'd like to spend my limited free time playing games, not fixing broken products with unofficial rules/points rewrites.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/09 14:16:17
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Ernestas wrote:Well, W40k is hardly a competitive game. Only minority cares about those official tournaments. Club could easily release point fixes for their tournaments. We for example had whole cheat tables for our Warmachine tournament last week. Most games will be played casually either way and it is very easy to agree with your opponent upon reasonable point prices for your forgeworld units. You both are here to have fun game for both of you and to build gaming relationship. It is not like you have an infinite supply of dudes to play with, every person in a hobby is irreplaceable as they are few in number and each with their unique playstyle and personality which you might not like. We had only 10 - 11 people in last tournament and that was quite a lot by our community's standards. There isn't many people to play with, I'm interested in Fire and Sword game, but there is literally just 1 person who recently is building those models...
Although I appreciate and understand the point you're making I don't feel I should have to negotiate something like the points of a unit simply because gw can't be bothered to give it a fair cost in comparison to similar units. I honestly believe the reason that all those other super heavys I mentioned got a drop and hellforged/relic super heavys didn't is because gw just forgot they existed. They apparently forgot that the hellforged super heavys were the only super heavys in the game that weren't relentless until the latest faq and I'm pretty sure the only thing that reminded them was my own relentlessness in emailing them about it.
How else do you explain why they cost these specific super heavys so high?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/09 15:49:25
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Regular Dakkanaut
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If you play regularly, you likely have someone with whom you prefer to play regularly. With time, old imbalances will start to grind your gears and you will have to agree that "Hey, if you want to continue using this unit you better pay 3 more points per unit" and in a same fashion, ignoring price of someone overpriced and bringing it in line with other units. Verbal agreement between friends develops easily and it doesn't require any more work after both of you agreed to something.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/09 15:50:02
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/09 15:51:55
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Ernestas wrote:If you play regularly, you likely have someone with whom you prefer to play regularly. With time, old imbalances will start to grind your gears and you will have to agree that "Hey, if you want to continue using this unit you better pay 3 more points per unit" and in a same fashion, ignoring price of someone overpriced and bringing it in line with other units. Verbal agreement between friends develops easily and it doesn't require any more work after both of you agreed to something.
It also provides an inherent extra barrier to entry if you want to start playing the game, if you need to put up with months or years of frustration before you can start negotiating the exact fiddly details of how to make everyone's stuff less wildly unbalanced.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/09 15:52:22
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Ernestas wrote:Well, W40k is hardly a competitive game. Only minority cares about those official tournaments. Club could easily release point fixes for their tournaments. We for example had whole cheat tables for our Warmachine tournament last week. Most games will be played casually either way and it is very easy to agree with your opponent upon reasonable point prices for your forgeworld units. You both are here to have fun game for both of you and to build gaming relationship. It is not like you have an infinite supply of dudes to play with, every person in a hobby is irreplaceable as they are few in number and each with their unique playstyle and personality which you might not like. We had only 10 - 11 people in last tournament and that was quite a lot by our community's standards. There isn't many people to play with, I'm interested in Fire and Sword game, but there is literally just 1 person who recently is building those models...
Although I appreciate and understand the point you're making I don't feel I should have to negotiate something like the points of a unit simply because gw can't be bothered to give it a fair cost in comparison to similar units. I honestly believe the reason that all those other super heavys I mentioned got a drop and hellforged/relic super heavys didn't is because gw just forgot they existed. They apparently forgot that the hellforged super heavys were the only super heavys in the game that weren't relentless until the latest faq and I'm pretty sure the only thing that reminded them was my own relentlessness in emailing them about it. How else do you explain why they cost these specific super heavys so high? Well, a lot of people are incompetent. Seeing how they are barely capable of doing their jobs right with all those product rushes and other nonsense, I would not be surprised that nobody is at all passionate in the company about the product they are making and selling. Automatically Appended Next Post: AnomanderRake wrote: Ernestas wrote:If you play regularly, you likely have someone with whom you prefer to play regularly. With time, old imbalances will start to grind your gears and you will have to agree that "Hey, if you want to continue using this unit you better pay 3 more points per unit" and in a same fashion, ignoring price of someone overpriced and bringing it in line with other units. Verbal agreement between friends develops easily and it doesn't require any more work after both of you agreed to something. It also provides an inherent extra barrier to entry if you want to start playing the game, if you need to put up with months or years of frustration before you can start negotiating the exact fiddly details of how to make everyone's stuff less wildly unbalanced. You can revert back to vanilla rules if you play with someone new. It doesn't matter much for me if I have to learn some community popular rules changes or official rules. They both are an equal learning curve.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/09 15:54:19
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/10 20:39:16
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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The bundles labeled "apoc" are basically just a marketing ploy. Theres nothing different about them.
It is worth keeping an eye on such things though. GW is kinda wonky about this but if theres a single box containing multiple units its usually quite a bit cheaper, but still the same units. Pretty much the only reason i bought the apoc Admech Robots box is because even ignoring the Dominius i didnt need i was saving quite a bit of money getting it instead of 3 individual robot boxes.
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/10 20:49:00
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Preacher of the Emperor
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Most of the Apoc boxed sets are pretty good deals if you're starting out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/10 20:54:20
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Ernestas wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote: Ernestas wrote:If you play regularly, you likely have someone with whom you prefer to play regularly. With time, old imbalances will start to grind your gears and you will have to agree that "Hey, if you want to continue using this unit you better pay 3 more points per unit" and in a same fashion, ignoring price of someone overpriced and bringing it in line with other units. Verbal agreement between friends develops easily and it doesn't require any more work after both of you agreed to something.
It also provides an inherent extra barrier to entry if you want to start playing the game, if you need to put up with months or years of frustration before you can start negotiating the exact fiddly details of how to make everyone's stuff less wildly unbalanced.
You can revert back to vanilla rules if you play with someone new. It doesn't matter much for me if I have to learn some community popular rules changes or official rules. They both are an equal learning curve.
Imagine for the moment you're a new player. You spend some time looking at stuff, pick up the rulebook, pick up the Codex, buy some models, paint them, then figure you're going to go down to a gamestore and try and learn to play. Then the people at the gamestore tell you "Oh, yeah, we have a fifty-page binder of tweaks and adjustments we've accumulated over years of playing every week that you can't find on the Internet and have no way of being prepared for. Nobody here plays these specific models you use so I have no idea how they fit into our framework, but we can go back to using standard official rules if you really want to."
What is the new player in this scenario supposed to think? Are these people using homebrew rules because the official rules are better and they want a worse play experience, or are they using homebrew rules because something's wrong with the official rules? How many people having arguments on the Internet are basing them off of their own fifty-page binder of tweaks, years of gentleman's agreements, thinking something's too strong because the best counters to it don't exist in their meta, etc? Do you think it might be a little intimidating for a new player to sit down with the rulebook and then get told by people who play that maybe they need to wade into a decades-old world of arguments and politics to figure out how the game actually works?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/10 21:15:06
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Regular Dakkanaut
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deviantduck wrote:Most of the Apoc boxed sets are pretty good deals if you're starting out.
Eh. I collect 7 armies and none of the corresponding Apoc detachments inspired a purchase. Even for armies that I need to expand.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/11 02:40:52
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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LoftyS wrote: deviantduck wrote:Most of the Apoc boxed sets are pretty good deals if you're starting out.
Eh. I collect 7 armies and none of the corresponding Apoc detachments inspired a purchase. Even for armies that I need to expand.
eh depends what you need, the chaos marine and space marine apoc sets where great if you wanted a good core to build an army around
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/11 03:27:52
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
Sioux Falls, SD
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BrianDavion wrote:LoftyS wrote: deviantduck wrote:Most of the Apoc boxed sets are pretty good deals if you're starting out.
Eh. I collect 7 armies and none of the corresponding Apoc detachments inspired a purchase. Even for armies that I need to expand.
eh depends what you need, the chaos marine and space marine apoc sets where great if you wanted a good core to build an army around
The admech one with a gakload of kastalen robots was pretty good as well.
The IK one was amazing, sold out almost instantly.
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Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/11 06:25:25
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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BrianDavion wrote:LoftyS wrote: deviantduck wrote:Most of the Apoc boxed sets are pretty good deals if you're starting out.
Eh. I collect 7 armies and none of the corresponding Apoc detachments inspired a purchase. Even for armies that I need to expand.
eh depends what you need, the chaos marine and space marine apoc sets where great if you wanted a good core to build an army around
I needed the Chaos one because I was assembling a Coils of the Hydra 30k list at the time and that's a force you need 40-50 Legion Tacticals to do properly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/01/14 06:44:07
Subject: Apocalypse models
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Regular Dakkanaut
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AnomanderRake wrote: Ernestas wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote: Ernestas wrote:If you play regularly, you likely have someone with whom you prefer to play regularly. With time, old imbalances will start to grind your gears and you will have to agree that "Hey, if you want to continue using this unit you better pay 3 more points per unit" and in a same fashion, ignoring price of someone overpriced and bringing it in line with other units. Verbal agreement between friends develops easily and it doesn't require any more work after both of you agreed to something.
It also provides an inherent extra barrier to entry if you want to start playing the game, if you need to put up with months or years of frustration before you can start negotiating the exact fiddly details of how to make everyone's stuff less wildly unbalanced.
You can revert back to vanilla rules if you play with someone new. It doesn't matter much for me if I have to learn some community popular rules changes or official rules. They both are an equal learning curve.
Imagine for the moment you're a new player. You spend some time looking at stuff, pick up the rulebook, pick up the Codex, buy some models, paint them, then figure you're going to go down to a gamestore and try and learn to play. Then the people at the gamestore tell you "Oh, yeah, we have a fifty-page binder of tweaks and adjustments we've accumulated over years of playing every week that you can't find on the Internet and have no way of being prepared for. Nobody here plays these specific models you use so I have no idea how they fit into our framework, but we can go back to using standard official rules if you really want to."
What is the new player in this scenario supposed to think? Are these people using homebrew rules because the official rules are better and they want a worse play experience, or are they using homebrew rules because something's wrong with the official rules? How many people having arguments on the Internet are basing them off of their own fifty-page binder of tweaks, years of gentleman's agreements, thinking something's too strong because the best counters to it don't exist in their meta, etc? Do you think it might be a little intimidating for a new player to sit down with the rulebook and then get told by people who play that maybe they need to wade into a decades-old world of arguments and politics to figure out how the game actually works?
Well, I'm a new guy who just started tabletop gaming. I have a starter box in pretty much every game by now. Age of Sigmar was fine. I got hardcore competitive type for W40k who had bad mounted Age of Sigmar as uncompetitive dice rolling. He had presented W40k tabletop first by showing all of the exploits which people at the highest level do and focused on balance, saying which faction sucks on competitive level and which factions I can play. When I played Infinity, it bad mouthed W40k players for not respecting terrain and having nonsensical LOS. When I played Warmachine, it bad mouthed W40k got not having tight balance and good gameplay. As they put it, it had "specific' gameplay which you have to warp your head around it.
So, I pretty much know that W40k has a lot of nonsense and I just prefer Warmachine or other games in general for tighter gameplay. For me, having extensive amount of new rules to learn over old game is fine. I like learning process. That ruins things for me is people who play with me. If it is unpleasant to play with another person or there isn't active and friendly community which would accept new people wanting to play their game, then that would be a deal breaker for me. For example, Warmachine community has a lot of new guys. So, our club veterans instead of organizing 75 pts games, instead are making 20 pts games and are borrowing models for people like me who come with unpainted starter sets. Or like Infinity, hobby store provides 30% off from any Infinity product while Infinity players actively were showing demos for new guys. There is nothing more demotivating when hobby appears dead or to have close knit community which is hostile and is not accepting of new people. Our local Warhammer community is former, it doesn't have official meetings or someone actively trying to promote their game and so it is seemingly least popular. Warmachine on the other hand has far more active support from shop owners as it is their prefered game. They organize tournaments, post pictures and events on public media, they are super helpful in answering my countless questions about this game, because they are enthusiastic about it.
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"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. |
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