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If I could afford FW resin I’d rather it over the recasted due to quality concerns... in America the pricing of this stuff is atrocious and beyond any common consumer. I have been tempted by recasters before though

Yeah "it's all the ebil recasters fault" seems like a pretty petty way of acknowledging their prices are too high, their releases are too slow, and their range is too small because they keep dumping stuff from it.

The "they won't change the rules to 8th" thing is also a red flag to me, because as far as I can tell that's a very minority position among HH fans(which, again, because this comes up every time, means people who play HH using HH rules for the sake of playing battles in the HH setting with their HH armies - wanting to use a Legion list to play 40k with your mates is not HH gaming, sorry), and GW surely have to know that.

That said, I don't think it's impossible the walnut brains in corporate would decide it's not worth the bother based on a spreadsheet somewhere where one number isn't quite as much more as another number than they'd want - that's why WHFB died afterall, there's no indication it ever stopped being profitable, it just wasn't profitable enough for people who's mentality was everything should be doing at-or-near Space Marine numbers or it's worthless.

I don't get why they would just get rid of it though, because they already know what a "successful" Heresy setup looks like: the one they started with - hire one incredibly invested bloke to do 90% of the writing, give him part time access to one of the editors, and let the sculptors from the rest of the "subdivision" do HH stuff as extras and side projects. You can't tell me there's *nobody* out there among the company or the fandom who couldn't match Alan Bligh at least in terms of output if not quite quality.

Heresy is struggling because it's a larger-than-40K-size wargame made almost entirely of expensive resin models. They should never have *tried* to make models for almost everything in the first place unless they were willing to take it plastic.

My tongue is only partially in my cheek when I say I lost any interest in HH when the RRP crept so high that it meant that even the recasts priced me out.

 Azreal13 wrote:
My tongue is only partially in my cheek when I say I lost any interest in HH when the RRP crept so high that it meant that even the recasts priced me out.

Which is funny and shocking at the same time.


Fortunately the sound of my 'Nooooooooooo' at the lost opportunity over the scenery tiles that were always wishlisted but I never got around to buying is cancelled out at my wallet's sigh of relief and my overcrowded spare room's praise to the heavens.

I also will never have to suffer the Paddington stares from my wife as yet another large package arrives.

Really surprised they havent considered licensing out at least the smaller bits to other bits places

Palming the blame onto recasters is nonsence, as I understand their prices are based off % of GW rrp but FW prices are so excessive that just buying for example a legit stock rhino or a demios from a recaster comes in at the same without the morality or quality issues but all GW sees is FW stuff not selling

 Yodhrin wrote:

The "they won't change the rules to 8th" thing is also a red flag to me, because as far as I can tell that's a very minority position among HH fans

But that is of course because at this point only the people who are willing to tolerate an antiquated and kludgy system are are left. A lot of people just quit when it turned out that HH was not moving to the 8th.

(which, again, because this comes up every time, means people who play HH using HH rules for the sake of playing battles in the HH setting with their HH armies - wanting to use a Legion list to play 40k with your mates is not HH gaming, sorry), and GW surely have to know that.

I really do not see a practical difference. It is marines fighting marines. That's what HH is.



When I first hear that they would be staying with the 7th I said that it would be a death sentence. But hey, I guess this is better. Now HH can die while remaining 'pure', and not be tainted by the hated 8/9 edition rules or all those people who would play it wrong...

Sticking in 7th was a death sentence. Know quite a few players who bought into HH because they could double-field the armies.

Ultimately a lack of clear plan is what killed HH in my opinion, something that was inevitable with the passing of Bligh.

I think GW could do better with the HH line and turn things around, but it would require a change of perspective and approach. Such as:
* Make 9th edition rules for the game. This would entice potential 40k players to invest in 30k out of curiosity that could lead into a full blown 30k addiction.
* Make foundation SKU plastic kits. They were kinda doing it with the Calth and Prospero boxes, but they could have taken it further. It would however require them to plan a line around it which iis not GW's forte.
* Make FW more of a Third-Party bits developer with the occasional mega item(Titans). Recasters thrive mostly on the larger kits because FW makes them so darn expensive. With smaller items such as shoulder pads, doors, and weapons the margin of difference become less and less as even recasters need a minimum wage.

Ultimately I get the feeling FW will just let HH die a slow and painful death with recasters picking up the slack for those who want to finish their armies. Sad really, but GW/FW gonna GW/FW.

Don't forget when the original creator and power behind HH and a lot of FW died without much warning that, I think, sapped a lot of the drive and power out of the department.


I really hate to see FW stuff go as whilst plastic has come a long way, resin still beats it. That said I do agree that FW has had enough trouble selling regular deluxe kits, HH was a deluxe army of a deluxe range.

That said I'd hope a good number just get rolled over into the regular marine listings - drop the 10001 alternative shoulderpads ,but keep the vehicles.


I'm often surprised that GW has never just made marine shoudlerpads and doors as part of plastic upgrade kits rather than resin.

 Overread wrote:
I'm often surprised that GW has never just made marine shoudlerpads and doors as part of plastic upgrade kits rather than resin.

What I heard was that when they did (Black Templars Chapter Upgrades, for example), they didn't sell particularly well.

A multi-million pound corporation that can't replace one man either fails at both basic recruitment and training (which we know isn't true), or decided that they simply don't want to. No ifs or buts.

Games Workshop has hundreds of thousands of fans of the lore, and access to a huge pool of talent. Bligh was never replaced because they didn't want to replace him. It's that simple.

The slow speed at which stuff has rolled means that their short-term plans under Bligh became their mid-term plans, and their mid-term plans got discarded altogether in favour of the long-term plans.

I don't buy that Heresy is going to vanish altogether, but it's clear that the company has moved on. They can't even be bothered to tell off a game designer to sit down for a few months to update the rules. Forgeworld is obviously being slowly merged with the main company and the other specialist games are providing much higher margins for much less investment.

Horus Heresy meanwhile, is providing diminishing returns due to expense, lack of playerbase (aka customers), and their own slowdown of interest. So they're finishing off the last few signature pieces (primarchs, praetors, and contempors basically) whilst slimming it down. Cutting all the poorly selling giant pieces, and stuff that's easily converted or unnecessary.

I wouldn't be surprised to see just one book for the Siege of Terra, wrapping it all up. But I don't put much weight on the source saying it above. It just makes sense.

Honestly I think the idea of recasters causing them to shrink the range is totally backwards. Me and my gaming group mainly play horus heresy and all own multiple 4k+ armies. We buy the majority of our stuff legit but end up going to recasters for the things we cant actually get from FW like the ever dwindling packs of weapon options, mk2 armour, oop characters and heads/shoulder pads. The more stuff gets discontinued or the price goes up the less we will spending on them and the more goes into 3rd party, recasts or ebay. A better option would be to release upgrade kits in larger sets (say 30 heads/60 pads/15 torsos or 10 man armour packs) so the manpower per item packed and shipped is lower, so they could sell at a slightly lower cost per individual peice. The vureent strategy though is pushing current purchasers out with lack of kits and putting new people off with incomplete ranges and rediculous prices.

The ruleset isnt an issue. The 7.5ed heresy rules are really good and while a bit more in depth lead to faster and more pleasing games than 8/9th ed.

I'm going to put that down as yet more fact free 'lol 30k is dead' baiting. Not like we haven't had much of that over the last 3 years or so

Bobug wrote:
Honestly I think the idea of recasters causing them to shrink the range is totally backwards. Me and my gaming group mainly play horus heresy and all own multiple 4k+ armies. We buy the majority of our stuff legit but end up going to recasters for the things we cant actually get from FW like the ever dwindling packs of weapon options, mk2 armour, oop characters and heads/shoulder pads. The more stuff gets discontinued or the price goes up the less we will spending on them and the more goes into 3rd party, recasts or ebay. A better option would be to release upgrade kits in larger sets (say 30 heads/60 pads/15 torsos or 10 man armour packs) so the manpower per item packed and shipped is lower, so they could sell at a slightly lower cost per individual peice. The vureent strategy though is pushing current purchasers out with lack of kits and putting new people off with incomplete ranges and rediculous prices.

The ruleset isnt an issue. The 7.5ed heresy rules are really good and while a bit more in depth lead to faster and more pleasing games than 8/9th ed.

Then again here recaster is the norm. Which is why i dropred out of gaming here as i don't want to support recasters.

tneva82 wrote:

Bobug wrote:
Honestly I think the idea of recasters causing them to shrink the range is totally backwards. Me and my gaming group mainly play horus heresy and all own multiple 4k+ armies. We buy the majority of our stuff legit but end up going to recasters for the things we cant actually get from FW like the ever dwindling packs of weapon options, mk2 armour, oop characters and heads/shoulder pads. The more stuff gets discontinued or the price goes up the less we will spending on them and the more goes into 3rd party, recasts or ebay. A better option would be to release upgrade kits in larger sets (say 30 heads/60 pads/15 torsos or 10 man armour packs) so the manpower per item packed and shipped is lower, so they could sell at a slightly lower cost per individual peice. The vureent strategy though is pushing current purchasers out with lack of kits and putting new people off with incomplete ranges and rediculous prices.

The ruleset isnt an issue. The 7.5ed heresy rules are really good and while a bit more in depth lead to faster and more pleasing games than 8/9th ed.

Then again here recaster is the norm. Which is why i dropred out of gaming here as i don't want to support recasters.

Well, let’s not count out the rise of 3D printing either. Just like recasters, the quality of 3D printing is improving and getting more common place. With a $200 Ender 3 Andrew a $20-25 spool of filament I was able to produce enough terrain to cover a 4’x8’ table. If I were to look at all the free .stl files out there for 40k (30k or any of the games) it might take a while, but I could build a whole army for much cheaper. So focusing on their main line where people would prefer the HIPS plastics which is cheaper to manufacture with fewer flaws is a better plan then trying for the resin niche market.

I believe the death of HH is just a normal consecuence of the death of FW.


FW as we knew it this past 15 years Is not gonna last very long. They are being repurposed as the specialist studio guys, doing core games with plastics and then resin add-ons. I believe GW just doesn't want that much resin production, I suppose the manpower and the costs aren't just as profitable as mass produced HIPS plastics .

Agreed. I think FW did its job over the years - premium resin products for all of GWs game lines, huge centerpiece models, and in many cases 'vanity projects" of things that the sculptors wanted to do, but main GW wasn't going to produce.

Now with GW doing huge premium priced centerpieces in plastic, there is less of a need for FW. They might keep the Titans and a select bunch of models, but I wouldn't be surprised if GW picks up the slack and releases some of the 30k/40k crossover stuff in plastic - with a FW pricetag.

The death of 30k was a perfect storm of events, which is a shame. That being said, I might go back to it, and re-learn 7th, rather than play 9th, which has to this point not impressed me at all. So if I do ever play 40k again, it'll be an older edition, or Index 8th with my son.

I would like them to move HH to 9th so that the firstborn can keep a place and army focussed around them in the Primaris future.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I would like them to move HH to 9th so that the firstborn can keep a place and army focussed around them in the Primaris future. [/quote
.The much better solution to that - cut out the silly primaris rubbish

beast_gts wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I'm often surprised that GW has never just made marine shoudlerpads and doors as part of plastic upgrade kits rather than resin.

What I heard was that when they did (Black Templars Chapter Upgrades, for example), they didn't sell particularly well.

That would be incorrect, chapter upgrades in plastic have sold incredibly well, black Templars is still a solid seller despite its age, they never had a lot of luck with metal upgrades .

 Ketara wrote:
'Flagging. Sales due to Recasters'

Also known as 'Flagging sales due to us pricing everything at such an extortionately high level that a bloke in a garage in China operating an email only list can undercut us by 80%'.

Although to be honest, I don't believe it anyway.

I do. Your first sentence is spot on. I have an embarrassing number of bagged up, unopened Contemptors and FW Primarchs, Acastus / Cerastus Knights, Ad Mech vehicles, piles of stuff spanning pretty much the entire 30K FW range, all due to the fact that a Chinese guy makes them as well as FW does but sells them for 35% of the price that they do. I find it entirely unsurprising that they're feeling the burn. Considering that FW is high price, low volume product, it isn't hard for me to believe that a few thousand people with similar purchasing habits to mine can severely effect their bottom line in a way they never could with the 40K / AoS stuff.

“Forgeworld is too expensive”

Meanwhile, regular GW kits are on par these days and some are more expensive.
There are also other resin based miniature companies that are around the same price and higher.

Yes, prices are plain stupid these days, I don’t defend that.
People pay it though.


I’ve dipped out of 30k but that’s due to getting tired of having options go out of production constantly.
Most recent for me was the Aurox, which kinda hurt as I had 4/7 I needed for my militia.

I’ve just gone back to AoS and Epic now instead.

Jackal90 wrote:

There are also other resin based miniature companies that are around the same price and higher.

Yeah I noticed a while ago that boutique miniature companies tend to base their prices on the most expensive mainstream competitor (GW/FW) as their benchmark these days. It seems absurd to me, considering that the GW alternative is most often a superior product (imo) but it might well be the most profitable thing for them to do.

 Crimson wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

The "they won't change the rules to 8th" thing is also a red flag to me, because as far as I can tell that's a very minority position among HH fans

But that is of course because at this point only the people who are willing to tolerate an antiquated and kludgy system are are left. A lot of people just quit when it turned out that HH was not moving to the 8th.

It's kind of cute that people have actually managed to delude themselves into believing 8th is a masterpiece of modern game design or whatever nonsense. It caters to a different set of preferences, but plenty of people consider that school of design plenty "kludgy", and of course new and better are not synonyms. And I still don't believe this assertion that loads of Heresy gamers suddenly quit upon discovering HH wouldn't be going 8th, because what earthly reason would they have to do that? If your objective is to play games set in the Heresy, the rules self-evidently still permit you to do so. If they could tolerate 7th-based AoD before, why are they suddenly now repulsed by it? It's not like other game systems - many of them considered superior by some people - didn't exist before 8th as a point of comparison, but nobody was quitting Heresy in outrage over the fact it wasn't more like Bolt Action or whatever.

The only reason I can see for someone to quit Heresy when it became obvious it wouldn't be transitioning to 8th was if playing Heresy was never the primary objective in the first place. They were 40K players who liked a Heresy army list for their 40K games.

(which, again, because this comes up every time, means people who play HH using HH rules for the sake of playing battles in the HH setting with their HH armies - wanting to use a Legion list to play 40k with your mates is not HH gaming, sorry), and GW surely have to know that.

I really do not see a practical difference. It is marines fighting marines. That's what HH is.

No, Horus Heresy is a set of rules for playing in the Heresy setting covering the titular events. It really isn't that hard to grasp.

When I first hear that they would be staying with the 7th I said that it would be a death sentence. But hey, I guess this is better. Now HH can die while remaining 'pure', and not be tainted by the hated 8/9 edition rules or all those people who would play it wrong...

Unironically yes. Fans of a thing should never want the needs and wants of non-fans of said thing to be the driving force behind how it's run, because that's a one way ticket to the thing changing to be something the fans didn't want. There's a version of the Heresy created for fans of the Heresy setting that's entirely sustainable, but GW chose to discard that to chase after 40K player and whale money. The fact is the version of "Heresy" you want is Heresy in name only, and I'd far rather they finish things up under the current system and leave Heresy fans with a fully functional "dead game"(a truly ridiculous concept peddled by people who seemingly can't fathom how to wargame without Daddy GW to spoonfeed them opponents and content) to play and enjoy.

Jackal90 wrote:
“Forgeworld is too expensive”

Meanwhile, regular GW kits are on par these days and some are more expensive.
There are also other resin based miniature companies that are around the same price and higher.

Yes, prices are plain stupid these days, I don’t defend that.
People pay it though.

I've stayed away from playing 40k the last couple of editions and was surprised that the primaris characters have reached $45 USD when I wanted to buy one for RPG character conversion. I find that price for a monopose single character with limited options (as opposed to the old $25 captain that had over a dozen optional bits) to be ridiculous... but it pales with FW's $70+ USD for smaller sized figures on ridiculously big and unnecessary bases.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Knight-Errant-Tylos-Rubio



I'd consider that price to be reasonable as a luxury purchase for a centerpiece model for a full army like a primarch but not a "normal" 30k marine character. I'm sure there are people willing to pay that as you said but there are also others that won't and will find alternate methods to achieve a similar result (whether illegal recasts or legal 3d model home prints analogs). I used to be willing to pay the forgeworld prices years ago when they were the equivalent of today's GW plastic ones but they've broken me like Ivan Drago. I can afford it... but I choose not to. YMMV. Regardless, I wish them well and understand why they've (i.e. GW/FW) priced themselves out of their own business model.

Comparing regular generic characters to the HH character series isn’t even close.

Use something closer like legion praetors, centurions etc.

Using their top display models to try and make a point, while comparing it to generic characters just invalidates the argument.

Jackal90 wrote:
Comparing regular generic characters to the HH character series isn’t even close.

Use something closer like legion praetors, centurions etc.

Using their top display models to try and make a point, while comparing it to generic characters just invalidates the argument.

I'm comparing 40k special characters like Mephiston and Lazarus to some 30k special characters. But if it makes you feel better to pretend otherwise to keep you from altering your world view then so be it.

 warboss wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
Comparing regular generic characters to the HH character series isn’t even close.

Use something closer like legion praetors, centurions etc.

Using their top display models to try and make a point, while comparing it to generic characters just invalidates the argument.

I'm comparing 40k special characters like Mephiston and Lazarus to some 30k special characters. But if it makes you feel better to pretend otherwise to keep you from altering your world view then so be it.

You’re not comparing like for like though. Mephiston is a plastic, mass produced product. The model you’re comparing it to is primarily sold as a collectors display piece. Sure it’s expensive, but it’s not filling the same niche as Mephiston.

 General Kroll wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
Comparing regular generic characters to the HH character series isn’t even close.

Use something closer like legion praetors, centurions etc.

Using their top display models to try and make a point, while comparing it to generic characters just invalidates the argument.

I'm comparing 40k special characters like Mephiston and Lazarus to some 30k special characters. But if it makes you feel better to pretend otherwise to keep you from altering your world view then so be it.

You’re not comparing like for like though. Mephiston is a plastic, mass produced product. The model you’re comparing it to is primarily sold as a collectors display piece. Sure it’s expensive, but it’s not filling the same niche as Mephiston.

Both are characters used for a game. It seems exactly the same niche. (Resin models, by the way, aren't some hand-crafted, unique objects. They're mould-cast pieces as well.)

You can stick either one in a case and call it a 'display piece' as well, if collection is all you want out of them.

 Yodhrin wrote:
The only reason I can see for someone to quit Heresy when it became obvious it wouldn't be transitioning to 8th was if playing Heresy was never the primary objective in the first place. They were 40K players who liked a Heresy army list for their 40K games.

Nah. Its actually more simple. Its hard enough to remember all the bespoke rules, special interactions, unit rules, etc. for one game, then to try to keep them separate when you hit the table. "How do challenges work? Is that the 8th edition 40k rule, or the 7th rule, let's look it up." Takes time. "Can you do that? I think that vehicle exception is in 8th, not 7th." It can get confusing at time, especially for us older players who don't play every week, but do play HH, and do play 40k (with 40k armies, I might add, not 30k armies).

Our group dropped HH because the early 8th edition rules were simpler (with Index), made for a quicker game, and breathed fresh life into the game, without the kludge. HH not following along is what did it in in our group (and no one in our group used 30k armies in 40k). Although, with the way 9th is rolling out, and all the new kludge 8th brought, I'm going back and play HH under AoD/7th, because it'll be the only "40k" game that I'll be playing.

It’s not my view at all.
Selecting specific comparisons to prove an argument (while ignoring closer comparisons) is simply pointless.

But since this is the way you wish to compare, let’s.

Mortarion and Magnus are both insanely priced for “characters” in comparison to forgeworld praetors.