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Basically assume that the next time one of the Daemon Primarchs went rampaging, Roboute gathered Ultramarines and took up his father's sword (get the reference? ) and struck down a Daemon Primarch permakilling him.

How will the other Daemon Primarchs and Chaos Gods react?

Now make a scenario for each Daemon Primarch.

I doubt the Gods themselves would care. If he's getting killed in a sideshow battle then he's not worth having around.

No idea about the other Primarch's though. Lorgar might need to build another room to hide in though.

Honestly, I think fear might be the closest emotion, especially for actual Daemons and even the Chaos Gods.

Let's not forget, they were genuinely afraid of the Emperor because of his ability to perma-kill their minions, and by getting so close to removing the Chaos Gods from influencing humanity. They've now had 10,000 years free of the Anathema, and now his son just shows up, carrying that perma-killing sword, and kills one of their most prized champions? They'd be utterly ruthless and seek to break Ultramar/Guilliman at all costs.

Fulgrim - the court of Slaanesh would destablise massively. Infighting amongst courtiers seeking to gain more influence would cause massive power struggles. We might even see the Eldar making a concerted counter against the weakened Slaanesh.

Perturabo - the Iron Warriors Legion would undergo a massive break in order. We'd see many warriors potentially pledge themselves to a Chaos God, or take the Black and join Abaddon. Perty was a very strong unifying force for his Legion, and without his influence, the infighting between rival warsmiths would only get worse. You'd probably end up with some joining the Red Corsairs, others joining the Black Legion, and then a fairly small Iron Warriors remnant led by a single ruthless Warsmith who defeated all the other claimants.

Angron - The World Eaters are already pretty destabilised without Angron - even during the Heresy, they were pretty undistant from him by the time of his ascension. The main blow would come to Khorne, but seeing as I'm not even sure Angron is his favourite daemon lord, I think Khorne would just be incredibly angry about his loss. The Grey Knights would be overjoyed though, and I could easily see the other Chaos Gods taking the chance to knock Khorne's influence down a lot.

Mortarion - the Death Guard would take a big hit to their organisation and morale. However, Nurgle's favoured champion is actually Typhus, so it's not as critical as it would be to other Legions. All the same, they Death Guard would certainly have a lot less momentum behind it.

Magnus - the Thousand Sons would pretty much cease to act as an invading force, as far as I think. Magnus is largely the glue keeping his sorcerers in line, and without his influence, the Legion would break. Ahriman would try and take the mantle, but he's not exactly that popular with other sorcerors. Again, many would probably take up mercenary work with other Legions, or just become their own splinter factions.

Lorgar - The Word Bearers would be largely unaffected militarily, but the blow to their morale would be severe. More than likely, I think they'd undergo a period of mass hysteria and zealotry, and invade Ultramar en masse. Infighting would probably take place, as different chaplains and apostles seek to claim Lorgar's place. The Ultramarines would consider this probably their greatest victory yet.

Trouble is, being a Daemon Primarch, they cannot be permakilled. Only banished for a period of time, which given the Warp, is somewhat nebulous.

I’ve no doubt Guilliman could take one, spesh with Daddy Stab. But even so, it’s only ever temporary.

The best you can hope to arrange is to stab the poop out the Daemon Primarch, then shred it’s particular Legion as hard as possible. Leave them with as few truly loyal followers as possible.

Now. Exactly how you arrange both?

Well, there’s a reason I like my comfortable office job!

There is nothing saying Daemon Primarchs cannot be perms-killed. Guilliman has so far in Guy Haley’s novels perms-killed a Great Unclean One (along with a whole swathe of lesser daemons). If greater daemons are susceptible, then other daemons of comparable power such as daemon princes and daemon primarchs might also be susceptible. In fact, a daemon prince has been perma-killed by Asurmen using the Sword of Asur, which is a lesser artifact than the Emperor’s sword, so I would think it likely daemon princes can also be perma-killed by the Emperor’s sword.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trouble is, being a Daemon Primarch, they cannot be permakilled. Only banished for a period of time, which given the Warp, is somewhat nebulous.

I’ve no doubt Guilliman could take one, spesh with Daddy Stab. But even so, it’s only ever temporary.

The best you can hope to arrange is to stab the poop out the Daemon Primarch, then shred it’s particular Legion as hard as possible. Leave them with as few truly loyal followers as possible.

Now. Exactly how you arrange both?

Well, there’s a reason I like my comfortable office job!

The Emperor's sword apparently is one of the few weapons in existance capable of PERMINATLY destroying a deamon. I think if a deamon primarch was slain, the reaction from the other deamon primarchs would be TERROR.

What about those weapons 'anathemae' or whatever?

the fact that a sword by itself without being held by the emperor can still do this, suggests it's a phenomenon available to the universe.

They also never really explain what about the emperor makes him capable of doing this - everything we know about him shows him to be an immortal gestalt psyker, nothing there that says why he can unmake daemons...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trouble is, being a Daemon Primarch, they cannot be permakilled. Only banished for a period of time, which given the Warp, is somewhat nebulous.

The Emperor's, now Guilliman's, sword is capable of permakilling daemons. Primarch or not, if you're a daemon, and you get killed by that sword, you're not coming back.

I think Guilliman actually does permakill a Great Unclean One, or other large Daemon of Nurgle, and it's reaction when it realises that it's not just being banished, but actually killed, is one of sheer horror and fear.

Considering that the Daemon Primarchs have existed for about 10,000 years, them suddenly being snuffed out by Dad's sword must be terrifying.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trouble is, being a Daemon Primarch, they cannot be permakilled. Only banished for a period of time, which given the Warp, is somewhat nebulous.

The Emperor's, now Guilliman's, sword is capable of permakilling daemons. Primarch or not, if you're a daemon, and you get killed by that sword, you're not coming back.

I think Guilliman actually does permakill a Great Unclean One, or other large Daemon of Nurgle, and it's reaction when it realises that it's not just being banished, but actually killed, is one of sheer horror and fear.

Considering that the Daemon Primarchs have existed for about 10,000 years, them suddenly being snuffed out by Dad's sword must be terrifying.

If you had read my post, I just wrote that Guilliman perma-killed a Great Unclean One in Guy Haley’s Plague War novel, while Asurmen perma-killed a daemon prince using the Sword of Asur. That GUO was trying desperately in fear to dissolve its physical form (in effect self-banishing itself back to the warp) but it could not do it in time.

So the fact more than one item in-universe can do so means it is not a unique effect.

Iracundus wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trouble is, being a Daemon Primarch, they cannot be permakilled. Only banished for a period of time, which given the Warp, is somewhat nebulous.

The Emperor's, now Guilliman's, sword is capable of permakilling daemons. Primarch or not, if you're a daemon, and you get killed by that sword, you're not coming back.

I think Guilliman actually does permakill a Great Unclean One, or other large Daemon of Nurgle, and it's reaction when it realises that it's not just being banished, but actually killed, is one of sheer horror and fear.

Considering that the Daemon Primarchs have existed for about 10,000 years, them suddenly being snuffed out by Dad's sword must be terrifying.

If you had read my post, I just wrote that Guilliman perma-killed a Great Unclean One in Guy Haley’s Plague War novel, while Asurmen perma-killed a daemon prince using the Sword of Asur. That GUO was trying desperately in fear to dissolve its physical form (in effect self-banishing itself back to the warp) but it could not do it in time.

So the fact more than one item in-universe can do so means it is not a unique effect.

I never claimed it was?

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Basically assume that the next time one of the Daemon Primarchs went rampaging, Roboute gathered Ultramarines and took up his father's sword (get the reference? ) and struck down a Daemon Primarch permakilling him.

How will the other Daemon Primarchs and Chaos Gods react?

Now make a scenario for each Daemon Primarch.

Primarch dies, doesn't get a model. Rule of lost sales says this won't happen.

Chaos Gods... don't have the capacity to care. They may pout over losing an amusing pet, but ultimately such a loss means nothing to them.

I think Fulgrim getting killed would be a fitting move by Guilliman. Avenging Manus that way. I think it could make for a decent story where Guilliman severs Fulgrim's head with the Emperor's sword and brings his hacked-to-pieces-snake-primarch-body to Terra for parading.

I just want someone to call Roboute a traitor as he does it so we can all talk about him really being Alpharius again.

Has anything ever explained WHY the sword can perma-gib Daemons?

I mean, I totally buy anything wielded by the Emperor can insta gib Daemons, if its just him channelling his over 9000 psychic power into them but why a sword which has been unused by him for 10,000 years? IS it a property of the sword itself? If so why hasn't such materials been given to Custodes or Grey Knights or even explained?

Did the Admech help make it? If so how?!

Am I overthinking this? Of course I am, but it's a interesting thought, the more I think about the subject the more holes appear.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Has anything ever explained WHY the sword can perma-gib Daemons?

I mean, I totally buy anything wielded by the Emperor can insta gib Daemons, if its just him channelling his over 9000 psychic power into them but why a sword which has been unused by him for 10,000 years? IS it a property of the sword itself? If so why hasn't such materials been given to Custodes or Grey Knights or even explained?

Did the Admech help make it? If so how?!

Am I overthinking this? Of course I am, but it's a interesting thought, the more I think about the subject the more holes appear.

The Sword was likely created and imbued with power by the Emperor, which can not be easily replicated now that he is on the throne. It is also likely that imbuing such power into an item permanently comes at a high cost to the imbuer, explaining why he did not make more of such weapons when he had the chance.

I'm wondering how skarbrand survived his encounter with the sword/big G. Does anyone know?

 ikeulhu wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Has anything ever explained WHY the sword can perma-gib Daemons?

I mean, I totally buy anything wielded by the Emperor can insta gib Daemons, if its just him channelling his over 9000 psychic power into them but why a sword which has been unused by him for 10,000 years? IS it a property of the sword itself? If so why hasn't such materials been given to Custodes or Grey Knights or even explained?

Did the Admech help make it? If so how?!

Am I overthinking this? Of course I am, but it's a interesting thought, the more I think about the subject the more holes appear.

The Sword was likely created and imbued with power by the Emperor, which can not be easily replicated now that he is on the throne. It is also likely that imbuing such power into an item permanently comes at a high cost to the imbuer, explaining why he did not make more of such weapons when he had the chance.

Or it could just be mumbo-jumbo that doesn't make any sense because that wasn't a requirement for the sale of the story! =]

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
I think Fulgrim getting killed would be a fitting move by Guilliman. Avenging Manus that way. I think it could make for a decent story where Guilliman severs Fulgrim's head with the Emperor's sword and brings his hacked-to-pieces-snake-primarch-body to Terra for parading.

A matter of taste.

Killing off a cool character like Fulgrim, simply to burnish the super tedius Guilliman would be a mistake IMO.

As for Manus, his name means "iron hands", the only interesting thing about him was his iron hands, which was also the name of his legion, who are notable for replacing their own hands with cheap servitor parts. Fulgrim was doing the setting a favour.

 harlokin wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
I think Fulgrim getting killed would be a fitting move by Guilliman. Avenging Manus that way. I think it could make for a decent story where Guilliman severs Fulgrim's head with the Emperor's sword and brings his hacked-to-pieces-snake-primarch-body to Terra for parading.

A matter of taste.

Killing off a cool character like Fulgrim, simply to burnish the super tedius Guilliman would be a mistake IMO.

As for Manus, his name means "iron hands", the only interesting thing about him was his iron hands, which was also the name of his legion, who are notable for replacing their own hands with cheap servitor parts. Fulgrim was doing the setting a favour.

Heh. It's better not to look at the Primarch's names too closely to avoid the stupidity.
I mean, the angry guy is named Angron.
Sanguineus is latin for bloody/bloodthirsty.
"Magnus" just means "big". Behold the Thousands Sons' Primarch, Big the Red!

And Corvus Corax literally translates to "Raven Raven"

 ikeulhu wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Has anything ever explained WHY the sword can perma-gib Daemons?

I mean, I totally buy anything wielded by the Emperor can insta gib Daemons, if its just him channelling his over 9000 psychic power into them but why a sword which has been unused by him for 10,000 years? IS it a property of the sword itself? If so why hasn't such materials been given to Custodes or Grey Knights or even explained?

Did the Admech help make it? If so how?!

Am I overthinking this? Of course I am, but it's a interesting thought, the more I think about the subject the more holes appear.

The Sword was likely created and imbued with power by the Emperor, which can not be easily replicated now that he is on the throne. It is also likely that imbuing such power into an item permanently comes at a high cost to the imbuer, explaining why he did not make more of such weapons when he had the chance.

RPG item creation mechanics don't really explain why it works though.
Emperor sets a sword on fire-> sword now permanent kills things that can't be permanently killed... because?

If its just a matter of power... can 10 or 100 Grey Knights do the same thing?

Its not just a matter of power, but of the source of said power. It is known that The Emperor is Anathema to the Primordial Annihilator, so it does make sense that imbuing His own power into a weapon could theoretically pass on that quality to said weapon. There is also the question of know how, perhaps multiple Grey Knights could harness the needed power to replicate the same effect, but that does not mean that they know how to properly do so.

Another possibility is that the Sword acts as a channel for the Emperor's energies, even while he is on the throne. This would allow it to perma-kill others regardless of who was wielding it as long as the Emperor persists, or maybe the link between Emperor and a Primarch is required for such a connection to be utilized.

The metaphysics in 40k does have actual rules that follow occult philosophies, and we may not know all those rules (such as exactly Why the Emperor is Anathema to Chaos) but they do exist. Personally, I like a bit of mystery, as things often can become less interesting the more they are explained.

I always thought the Emperor was anathema because he's the only person capable of both becoming/already being strong enough to threaten them and having the desire to destroy Chaos rather than an inherent trait.
Like the Eldar gods would probably destroy Chaos if they had a chance but there's no way the survivors could pull it off and Gork/Mork are too busy with each other.

People are blowing the sword out of proportion a bit. It's not like it's the only weapon that can destroy a demon.

We can compare the Emperor’s sword to the Sword of Asur, which destroyed a daemon prince in the Asurmen novel. The key feature of the Sword of Asur is the spirit of Asurmen’s brother. Do all Direswords then have similar ability? Unknown.

The Emperor’s sword probably does have some part of the Emperor in it. When Guilliman used it, he felt like he did when he was in the presence of the Emperor, suggesting the Emperor did put some portion of his power into the sword.

Of course even if this ability is not unique, they could still be of differing power level. Maybe the Emperor’s sword is an auto perma-kill to daemons while the Sword of Asur (and maybe Direswords?) do it only on failing a Ld test (i.e. a chance of perma-kill rather than automatic).

 Andersp90 wrote:
I'm wondering how skarbrand survived his encounter with the sword/big G. Does anyone know?

Skarbrand doesn't get stabbed with the Emperor's sword.

Guilliman shoots Amalrich's black blade which is stuck in Skarbrand's chest, and then the daemon falls over.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:
I'm wondering how skarbrand survived his encounter with the sword/big G. Does anyone know?

Skarbrand doesn't get stabbed with the Emperor's sword.

Guilliman shoots Amalrich's black blade which is stuck in Skarbrand's chest, and then the daemon falls over.

Thx.

Iracundus wrote:
We can compare the Emperor’s sword to the Sword of Asur, which destroyed a daemon prince in the Asurmen novel. The key feature of the Sword of Asur is the spirit of Asurmen’s brother. Do all Direswords then have similar ability? Unknown.

The Emperor’s sword probably does have some part of the Emperor in it. When Guilliman used it, he felt like he did when he was in the presence of the Emperor, suggesting the Emperor did put some portion of his power into the sword.

Of course even if this ability is not unique, they could still be of differing power level. Maybe the Emperor’s sword is an auto perma-kill to daemons while the Sword of Asur (and maybe Direswords?) do it only on failing a Ld test (i.e. a chance of perma-kill rather than automatic).

I would guess that it's dependant on the soul in the sword. We know that souls have differing strengths so I would guess the sword soul 'fights' the victim and the loser is destroyed. So if a standard diresword stabs a Bloodletter then the Bloodletter is destroyed but if the same sword stabbed a powerful demon like Skarbrand then this wouldn't happen.

pm713 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
We can compare the Emperor’s sword to the Sword of Asur, which destroyed a daemon prince in the Asurmen novel. The key feature of the Sword of Asur is the spirit of Asurmen’s brother. Do all Direswords then have similar ability? Unknown.

The Emperor’s sword probably does have some part of the Emperor in it. When Guilliman used it, he felt like he did when he was in the presence of the Emperor, suggesting the Emperor did put some portion of his power into the sword.

Of course even if this ability is not unique, they could still be of differing power level. Maybe the Emperor’s sword is an auto perma-kill to daemons while the Sword of Asur (and maybe Direswords?) do it only on failing a Ld test (i.e. a chance of perma-kill rather than automatic).

I would guess that it's dependant on the soul in the sword. We know that souls have differing strengths so I would guess the sword soul 'fights' the victim and the loser is destroyed. So if a standard diresword stabs a Bloodletter then the Bloodletter is destroyed but if the same sword stabbed a powerful demon like Skarbrand then this wouldn't happen.

It wasn't used to kill Skarbrand.

And, as the Plague War seems to suggest, the Emperor's Sword is more than capable of killing greater daemons.

 ikeulhu wrote:
Its not just a matter of power, but of the source of said power. It is known that The Emperor is Anathema to the Primordial Annihilator, so it does make sense that imbuing His own power into a weapon could theoretically pass on that quality to said weapon. There is also the question of know how, perhaps multiple Grey Knights could harness the needed power to replicate the same effect, but that does not mean that they know how to properly do so.

Another possibility is that the Sword acts as a channel for the Emperor's energies, even while he is on the throne. This would allow it to perma-kill others regardless of who was wielding it as long as the Emperor persists, or maybe the link between Emperor and a Primarch is required for such a connection to be utilized.

The metaphysics in 40k does have actual rules that follow occult philosophies, and we may not know all those rules (such as exactly Why the Emperor is Anathema to Chaos) but they do exist. Personally, I like a bit of mystery, as things often can become less interesting the more they are explained.

'It is known' isn't an explanation either, nor is the chain of supposition that follows. What makes you think its even true?
Seriously, page reference in an existing book, because that's a pretty wild claim and other people are talking about off-the-shelf dire swords.

I can remember if it is a novel or one of the short stories but Guilliman mentions that he has been studying his father's sword to try and work out how it functions but admits his own knowledge of warp-craft is too limited for him to figure it out.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
We can compare the Emperor’s sword to the Sword of Asur, which destroyed a daemon prince in the Asurmen novel. The key feature of the Sword of Asur is the spirit of Asurmen’s brother. Do all Direswords then have similar ability? Unknown.

The Emperor’s sword probably does have some part of the Emperor in it. When Guilliman used it, he felt like he did when he was in the presence of the Emperor, suggesting the Emperor did put some portion of his power into the sword.

Of course even if this ability is not unique, they could still be of differing power level. Maybe the Emperor’s sword is an auto perma-kill to daemons while the Sword of Asur (and maybe Direswords?) do it only on failing a Ld test (i.e. a chance of perma-kill rather than automatic).

I would guess that it's dependant on the soul in the sword. We know that souls have differing strengths so I would guess the sword soul 'fights' the victim and the loser is destroyed. So if a standard diresword stabs a Bloodletter then the Bloodletter is destroyed but if the same sword stabbed a powerful demon like Skarbrand then this wouldn't happen.

It wasn't used to kill Skarbrand.

And, as the Plague War seems to suggest, the Emperor's Sword is more than capable of killing greater daemons.

Okay. I was talking about direswords though.