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So just been reading about the BT and it says they number about 6k but aren’t honest about chapter size and are not codex compliant. They are also on a constant Great Crusade v2 and setup based on every world they conquer. So considering size and territory are the now most powerful.

Also does anyone know why GW made BT an official army with a codex etc. As if there aren’t enough SM or imperial armies.

mrFickle wrote:
So just been reading about the BT and it says they number about 6k but aren’t honest about chapter size and are not codex compliant. They are also on a constant Great Crusade v2 and setup based on every world they conquer. So considering size and territory are the now most powerful.

Also does anyone know why GW made BT an official army with a codex etc. As if there aren’t enough SM or imperial armies.

1) The Black Templars are certainly one of the largest chapters, but they're spread out and don't have many hard allies. The most powerful chapter is realistically the Ultramarines, as they have innumerable chapters which are basically bannermen - if Guilliman wanted, he could basically form them into a full Legion in all but name. Other chapters which are significantly above average power include the Space Wolves (the Great Companies are significantly larger than a normal chapter's companies, IIRC) and the Dark Angels (for reasons similar to the Ultramarines - the Unforgiven chapters mostly consider Azrael their Supreme Grand Master even above their official Grand Master).

2) The BT supplement is hardly a new thing - I think the first BT codex was back in 3rd edition? Basically, they're different enough to be interesting.

Nope. Rainbow Warriors are the real deal.

I believe the Black Templars were pretty heavily reduced in size to be a lot closer to the standard 1000 (which is probably a bit higher than that anyways). More than likely, the BT cap at about 2k-3k (however, always open for recent sources that claim otherwise!), and are just very very spread out, to the point that, even IF they numbered 6k, they would be so far apart and decentralised, they probably shouldn't really count as one single Chapter.

In terms of any single most powerful Chapter (so, not factoring in Chapters who have de facto control over their successors, like the Ultramarines or Dark Angels or Imperial Fists with their Last Wall protocol active), I'd probably have to hand it to the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Minotaurs, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, or Imperial Fists.
Of course, just my view.

Aelyn wrote:
1) The Black Templars are certainly one of the largest chapters, but they're spread out and don't have many hard allies. The most powerful chapter is realistically the Ultramarines, as they have innumerable chapters which are basically bannermen - if Guilliman wanted, he could basically form them into a full Legion in all but name. Other chapters which are significantly above average power include the Space Wolves (the Great Companies are significantly larger than a normal chapter's companies, IIRC) and the Dark Angels (for reasons similar to the Ultramarines - the Unforgiven chapters mostly consider Azrael their Supreme Grand Master even above their official Grand Master).

They are also almost always in the thick of things with a recruiting pattern made heavy by numerous sources, too. If anything, they probably have the greatest fluctuation of numbers of any Chapter. This last aspect probably reduces their power as they are so scattered and always engaged that to even consider collecting them all would be a challenge of epic proportions.

Aelyn wrote:
2) The BT supplement is hardly a new thing - I think the first BT codex was back in 3rd edition? Basically, they're different enough to be interesting.

They only had one independent one before, and it was early 4th Edition. However, they were first featured in the combined supplement Codex: Armageddon in 3rd Edition which included the Salamanders, Ork Kult of Speed, and Steel Legions as well.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Nope. Rainbow Warriors are the real deal.

Space Sharks would like a word.

mrFickle wrote:


Also does anyone know why GW made BT an official army with a codex etc. As if there aren’t enough SM or imperial armies.

Alright I'll tell you how it happened.

Citadel/GW have often done army lists for specific chapters without really meaning for it to go anywhere. In RT there were lists for white scars and space wolves that were pretty much the generic space marine list. They didn't really do Codex: Faction at the time and so you'd just see a supplement with a random example chapter as an army list.

Black Templars first really big appearance was being on the cover of the third edition starter box. It was a classic last-stand style John Blanche painting and it was mostly normal-looking marines with bolters; the only marines with big axes and exaggerated knightly ornamentation were the officers.

Then they did the Armageddon codex, and the two marine armies they put in it were based on personal armies by people in the studio, and the black templar guy had customized his models to have chainswords on the normal squads and frag launchers and bolters on the land raider.

At the time, close combat was king. If your marines moved, their bolters only fired a 12" single shot. On the other hand, close combat units could drive in a rhino, get out, move and charge their normal distance, get +1 attacks for charging, and when they won the combat they could then get another 2d6" movement to immediately get stuck into another unit without getting shot at.

So as happens sometimes with people making up rules for their personal army, homeskillet from the studio cut out the bad stuff, like useless bolters, and gave them good stuff, like ccws. When they published Armageddon, it had all these armies that are clearly just for fun (hive militia, armageddon ork hunters) and two marine armies also just for fun (Salamanders were pretty weak, they had -1 initiative and couldn't get the best tactical heavy, the lascannon).

Unfortunately, what had been a pretty fluffy chapter became kind of a cartoon of itself because of the crappy rules for infantry shooting at the time. Clearly, knights in space can be knightly while still using tactical squads, but 3rd edition was the way it was and now they have to march across the field to hit people and for some reason their tank can't fight for like 90% of the time that enemies can see them and shoot at them because its guns only work on a 4x6 board.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I believe the Black Templars were pretty heavily reduced in size to be a lot closer to the standard 1000 (which is probably a bit higher than that anyways). More than likely, the BT cap at about 2k-3k (however, always open for recent sources that claim otherwise!),

They have since re-retconned that retcon, I'm afraid! Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury states that each BT crusade consists of several thousand marines.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I believe the Black Templars were pretty heavily reduced in size to be a lot closer to the standard 1000 (which is probably a bit higher than that anyways). More than likely, the BT cap at about 2k-3k (however, always open for recent sources that claim otherwise!),

They have since re-retconned that retcon, I'm afraid! Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury states that each BT crusade consists of several thousand marines.

In which case, I stand corrected! However, in that case, I think calling the Black Templars a "unified" Chapter would be like comparing all the Unforgiven and Ultramarines successors - they might all come from the same place, and even respect a single authority figure (Helbrecht, Azrael, and Calgar respectively), but they never come all together.

Basically, while a case could be made for "the Black Templars are the biggest and most powerful Chapter", that might be true in name alone, and not in practice.

Are you suggesting there is a chapter out there greater than the Angry Marines?

Black Templars are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, and they always die, so no BT are no where near the best Chapters, at best slightly above average. I would rank Ultrasmurfs, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, White Scars, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, all above them, with only Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists to be around their level.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I believe the Black Templars were pretty heavily reduced in size to be a lot closer to the standard 1000 (which is probably a bit higher than that anyways). More than likely, the BT cap at about 2k-3k (however, always open for recent sources that claim otherwise!), and are just very very spread out, to the point that, even IF they numbered 6k, they would be so far apart and decentralised, they probably shouldn't really count as one single Chapter.

In terms of any single most powerful Chapter (so, not factoring in Chapters who have de facto control over their successors, like the Ultramarines or Dark Angels or Imperial Fists with their Last Wall protocol active), I'd probably have to hand it to the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Minotaurs, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, or Imperial Fists.

Spoiler:

Grey Knights - very good tier equipment, all psychic, lots of naval assets of their own, plenty of relic and archeotech gear. Hampered by lower numbers, but easily making up for that with sheer skill and equipment power.

Space Wolves - higher than average numbers, formidable combatants, a good navy, and relic gear

Minotaurs - rumoured henchmen of the HLOT, good gear and resupply

Ultramarines - probably the strongest home base, very good naval forces, lots of supply opportunities, and the most well rounded

Dark Angels - good supplies of relic weaponry, some of the best Terminators barring Grey Knight ones, and the Rock

Imperial Fists - The Phalanx alone makes them the strongest naval power

Of course, just my view.

Would just like to tack onto the Grey Knights - their power comes not just from their own chapter but the resources they can draw upon. They have the rank and authority to request the assistance of any Imperial bodies they fight besides, except Custodes really. Even then, if GK are fighting and Custodes are there, they'd more than likely support the GK as they know the GK are about as pure as them. But also, GK are closely tied to the Inqusition, and that opens the way for Inquisitorial requisitioning. Suddenly, everyone fights for the GK and I'm sure more than one space marine chapter has been annihilated because the GK have forseen an enormous Daemonic event due to that chapter's existence