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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Sim-Life wrote:

No one ever said the 40k universe was a sensible, efficient setting.


Tournaments should be though. Gameplay quality is independent of the lore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 01:17:31


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

Martel732 wrote:
Oh you did it now. No one questions Ishagu.


You should have seen me rolling with Dash of Pepper in YDMC back in the day, the current crop of posters doesn't scare me.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Canadian 5th wrote:
This thread is a real trip...

First off, if playing the same mission(s) with similar terrain setups is sooo boring, why is it that all the largest sports in the world have codified standards for field/pitch/rink layout, player equipment, score tracking, ect? The ITC is trying to bring that level of professionalism to the 40k tournament scene so of course they're going to use the same methods.


That depends entirely on what the sport is trying to measure (give me a second while I recover from laughing too hard at the idea of 40k being a sport...). Motor racing has varied layouts for the "playing field" as do marathons and golf because part of what these sports are trying to determine is the overall quality of a person or team in a varying set of circumstances and their ability to adapt. That seems much closer to what wargames should be trying to measure, rather than the current trend which looks to remove any and all variables so it just becomes an exercise in list building and maximising efficiency.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh you did it now. No one questions Ishagu.


You should have seen me rolling with Dash of Pepper in YDMC back in the day, the current crop of posters doesn't scare me.


There is nothing wrong with the ITC as a concept for a circuit. The stat tracking, the tournament scene, the app support, etc are all great.

The home-brew missions and terrain rules that are detrimental to the game are my issue - they actively discourage certain units and hurt faction and unit variety. It's not just a matter of balance, it's also an issue of mission variety. You can chose to play home-brew 40k all you want, just don't complain about the state of the game as it exists within said home-brew. The ITC missions are not the real, official rules of the of 40k. When 8th dropped the ITC was a superior way to play over the official missions, this is not the case now.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/27 10:21:26


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Slipspace wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
This thread is a real trip...

First off, if playing the same mission(s) with similar terrain setups is sooo boring, why is it that all the largest sports in the world have codified standards for field/pitch/rink layout, player equipment, score tracking, ect? The ITC is trying to bring that level of professionalism to the 40k tournament scene so of course they're going to use the same methods.


That depends entirely on what the sport is trying to measure (give me a second while I recover from laughing too hard at the idea of 40k being a sport...). Motor racing has varied layouts for the "playing field" as do marathons and golf because part of what these sports are trying to determine is the overall quality of a person or team in a varying set of circumstances and their ability to adapt. That seems much closer to what wargames should be trying to measure, rather than the current trend which looks to remove any and all variables so it just becomes an exercise in list building and maximising efficiency.

"It appears mister Tiger is in trouble, he was one stroke off getting the ball in hole #15 but then it shut itself closed, how terribly unfortunate."

"France forfeits again after getting behind by 2 goals, a bit unsportsmanlike to the crowd that paid to come to see the game."

"Denmark just got ahead by 1 pt, now they just have to hope the random game length doesn't prolong the game and lets Sweden get back in the game." I think this might be a thing, I'm not super into sportsball so to me overtime is pretty much this.

With golf you get to scout the course before you play, see how fast the grass is and stuff like that, in that vain saying before a 40k tournament you can expect x or y terrain is perfectly in line. As far as wind goes in golf that's already decided by dice, but you don't suddenly have to do a handstand for 10 seconds before making your stroke because you rolled a random mission, the rules are mostly the same every time, although some golf courses use house rules for terrain.

I think playing on the same battlefield over and over again using similar missions is great fun. Ideally, the terrain gets shifted around a bit, but it doesn't need to be super unique and playing with the exact same set-up is totally fine if I'm playing with or against a different list. Eternal War missions pretty similar, build an all-rounder lists and you can win any mission. I have yet to feel like the random mission helped one player more than the other so that has been a pleasant surprise, on the other hand random game length has been dreadful as far winning games go, statistically games should only go to turn 7 1/3 of the time but I've found it to happen in 3/4 games that lasted further than turn 4.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

Sounds like you're playing the wrong game. Have you heard of chess? It has the exact same board each game and the mission doesn't change at all.

If you want to turn 40k into something it isn't intended to be then go head, but don't expect 40k to be balanced around or to suit the homebrew you have created. As the CA missions have evolved it has become obvious that the ITC have diverged too much.

The ITC should just release homebrew rules for all the factions at this point. If you don't want to play the real game you don't have to, but don't pick and chose whilst demanding the official rules are updated to suit or balance the unofficial ones.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






 vict0988 wrote:

"It appears mister Tiger is in trouble, he was one stroke off getting the ball in hole #15 but then it shut itself closed, how terribly unfortunate."

"France forfeits again after getting behind by 2 goals, a bit unsportsmanlike to the crowd that paid to come to see the game."

"Denmark just got ahead by 1 pt, now they just have to hope the random game length doesn't prolong the game and lets Sweden get back in the game." I think this might be a thing, I'm not super into sportsball so to me overtime is pretty much this.



Quite a few team sportsball games have "random" game length, there's usually a bit of added time at the end, either added by the referee to make up for time lost for various reasons or because the ball needs to go out of play past a certain time for the game to end. The only thing I can think of offhand for forfeits is MMA where a fighter can tap out if they want to stop getting punched in the head.

 vict0988 wrote:
you don't suddenly have to do a handstand for 10 seconds before making your stroke because you rolled a random mission


I don't think anyone is advocating that missions be randomly determined each round at tournaments, just that an alternative mission pack to ITC ought to be the mainstream for big non-GW events. If you mean a randomly rolled mission objective, since the parameters for what objectives can be generated in the CA19 missions are predefined, you should know that doing a handstand for ten seconds is a possibility and plan accordingly! (Can my list do a handstand? Am I prepared to do a handstand when it comes up? etc.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 12:45:35


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Ishagu wrote:
Sounds like you're playing the wrong game. Have you heard of chess? It has the exact same board each game and the mission doesn't change at all.

If you want to turn 40k into something it isn't intended to be then go head, but don't expect 40k to be balanced around or to suit the homebrew you have created. As the CA missions have evolved it has become obvious that the ITC have diverged too much.

The ITC should just release homebrew rules for all the factions at this point. If you don't want to play the real game you don't have to, but don't pick and chose whilst demanding the official rules are updated to suit or balance the unofficial ones.


False dilemma fallacy. There is an enormous spectrum of randomness possible between chess and maelstrom 40K.

"become obvious"

Hasty generalization fallacy. The fact that there is so much contention around the topic renders it prima facie NOT obvious.

" If you don't want to play the real game you don't have to"

Begging the claim fallacy. You assume which is "real" or not real in your assertion. Players determine this, not GW.
   
Made in gb
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






And let's not forget the fallacy fallacy

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Jidmah wrote:
And let's not forget the fallacy fallacy


I don't usually go there, but that post really deserved it. I don't think the conclusion is correct despite the fallacies, so fallacy fallacy doesn't apply here.
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




The saying 'different strokes for different folks' comes to mind. Though the whole wargame angle, where the unpredictable and unknown is part and parcel of it, is surely a knock against the completely controlled and predictable nature of sporting events?

I understand the platonic ideal of the tourney gamer, where there is nothing left to chance and randomness whatsoever -- even to the point of eliminating dice. I just don't agree with it!
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Yoyoyo wrote:
The saying 'different strokes for different folks' comes to mind. Though the whole wargame angle, where the unpredictable and unknown is part and parcel of it, is surely a knock against the completely controlled and predictable nature of sporting events?

I understand the platonic ideal of the tourney gamer, where there is nothing left to chance and randomness whatsoever -- even to the point of eliminating dice. I just don't agree with it!


Even in wargames the unpredictable and unknown aren't really part and parcel. Dice are used to abstract the performance of questions that are below the scale of the game to resolve [such as an individual soldier shooting.] Terrain and objectives are generally fixed [there's a hill here and the goal is to take that bridge]. Here's a mission from a narrative wargame meant to simulate a conflict:


The objectives are very clear and do not change: Control more town spaces than the enemy at the end of the game.

In this mission, nor any of the 19 other in this game, and 40 more between it's sister games, and thousands more across other traditional and less traditional wargames, Command does not decide randomly on turn 6 that the town of NECE needs to be captured but ST.ATHAN can now be ignored, and then randomly reverse the call on turn 8. You may make that decision, because the road to & from ST.ATHAN is through a forested valley and difficult to attack with tanks along but NECE is in the open and easy to fire on from the heights, and then reverse the decision because the enemy has their IF orders set on the heights over NECE but left the forest road to ST.ATHAN open and it's an easier 4 town hexes to capture for your total "hold more towns" mission, but that's a change in your strategy for victory as a consequence of your enemy's actions, not because the mission objectives changed on a card draw.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/27 20:00:36


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

Slipspace wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
This thread is a real trip...

First off, if playing the same mission(s) with similar terrain setups is sooo boring, why is it that all the largest sports in the world have codified standards for field/pitch/rink layout, player equipment, score tracking, ect? The ITC is trying to bring that level of professionalism to the 40k tournament scene so of course they're going to use the same methods.


That depends entirely on what the sport is trying to measure (give me a second while I recover from laughing too hard at the idea of 40k being a sport...). Motor racing has varied layouts for the "playing field" as do marathons and golf because part of what these sports are trying to determine is the overall quality of a person or team in a varying set of circumstances and their ability to adapt. That seems much closer to what wargames should be trying to measure, rather than the current trend which looks to remove any and all variables so it just becomes an exercise in list building and maximising efficiency.


In motorsports, the tracks to be run and the allowed technical specifications are known well in advance of the season. In season, every team gets allotments of time to practice and fine-tune their car before each race; in F1 this is going even further with team spending also being closely monitored to ensure an even more even playing field. It's similar for golf where most layers play practice rounds before selecting their clubs and setting their strategy for the tournament.

nurgle5 wrote:Quite a few team sportsball games have "random" game length, there's usually a bit of added time at the end, either added by the referee to make up for time lost for various reasons or because the ball needs to go out of play past a certain time for the game to end. The only thing I can think of offhand for forfeits is MMA where a fighter can tap out if they want to stop getting punched in the head.


Except that the game length isn't random even in those sports. The added extra time is supposed to account for the running of the clock during stops in play in sports where the official game clock isn't stopped for such events. In other games like American Football, the clock runs at very specific times, and the final play must start before the clock hits zero. From there the length of the final drive is also deterministic.

For sports where there isn't a clock, there are defined rounds of play such as ends in curling, innings in baseball, holes in golf, etc.

 vict0988 wrote:
I don't think anyone is advocating that missions be randomly determined each round at tournaments, just that an alternative mission pack to ITC ought to be the mainstream for big non-GW events. If you mean a randomly rolled mission objective, since the parameters for what objectives can be generated in the CA19 missions are predefined, you should know that doing a handstand for ten seconds is a possibility and plan accordingly! (Can my list do a handstand? Am I prepared to do a handstand when it comes up? etc.)


The issue with even the current CA missions is that they're unbalanced from mission to mission and some of them have random elements with regards to the objective scoring. The first could be solved by allowing players to change lists between mission rounds as no military would send the same forces to such a diverse set of missions and the second can't be solved without rewriting the offending missions.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I think a side board would be something that would be cool for 40k games.500 point sideboard. Heck if it's going to be MTG we might as well have some other MTG type rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 20:18:07


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

If you replace 'homebrew' with 'wolf' in any of Ishagu's posts they read like Codex:SW.

 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

 deviantduck wrote:
If you replace 'homebrew' with 'wolf' in any of Ishagu's posts they read like Codex:SW.


It works even better if you change ITC to 'fang' and CA to 'claw'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/28 01:52:40


 
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






Canadian 5th wrote:
Except that the game length isn't random even in those sports. The added extra time is supposed to account for the running of the clock during stops in play in sports where the official game clock isn't stopped for such events. In other games like American Football, the clock runs at very specific times, and the final play must start before the clock hits zero. From there the length of the final drive is also deterministic.


Yes, I know. That is why I put the word random in quotation marks (because it was the term being used to describe how the total amount turns in a 40k game can be variable in the post I was responding to) and while I less specific, I did also mention that the extra time in sports is added for reasons.

Canadian 5th wrote:The issue with even the current CA missions is that they're unbalanced from mission to mission and some of them have random elements with regards to the objective scoring. The first could be solved by allowing players to change lists between mission rounds as no military would send the same forces to such a diverse set of missions and the second can't be solved without rewriting the offending missions.


I'm not sure how helpful comparisons to real life military thinking/practices are since I also imagine no military would conduct a campaign in a tournament format.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/28 12:32:51


 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

 nurgle5 wrote:
I'm not sure how helpful comparisons to real life military thinking/practices is since I also imagine no military would conduct a campaign in a tournament format.

You are aware that our entire hobby grew out of militaries conducting war games to determine actual military policy. Beyond that modern joint exercises are usually carried out in a series of meticulous planned stages with care being placed to balance forces to appropriately train the troops and/or assess the efficacy of the simulated methods and tactics of the forces involved.

There's also the literal sporting events as well as fun stuff like marksman ship contests using MBTS or naval guns.
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






 Canadian 5th wrote:
 nurgle5 wrote:
I'm not sure how helpful comparisons to real life military thinking/practices is since I also imagine no military would conduct a campaign in a tournament format.

You are aware that our entire hobby grew out of militaries conducting war games to determine actual military policy. Beyond that modern joint exercises are usually carried out in a series of meticulous planned stages with care being placed to balance forces to appropriately train the troops and/or assess the efficacy of the simulated methods and tactics of the forces involved.

There's also the literal sporting events as well as fun stuff like marksman ship contests using MBTS or naval guns.


Aye, I'm just querying how useful real life comparisons are given that 40k isn't exactly a realistic simulacrum of warfare.

To expand a bit on this, from what I've seen online and experienced IRL, 40k competitive players seem to focus on and value the mechanics of the game entirely over whatever realism it may have. So why should what a real military might do or think be taken into consideration when designing a tournament mission pack?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/28 15:19:02


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

Warhammer 40k is tabletop Wargame.

Not a tabletop simulation

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Ishagu wrote:
Warhammer 40k is tabletop Wargame.

Not a tabletop simulation
Tabletop warGAME.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Canadian 5th wrote:

In motorsports, the tracks to be run and the allowed technical specifications are known well in advance of the season. In season, every team gets allotments of time to practice and fine-tune their car before each race; in F1 this is going even further with team spending also being closely monitored to ensure an even more even playing field. It's similar for golf where most layers play practice rounds before selecting their clubs and setting their strategy for the tournament.

F1 don't either compete with F3000 nor do they race in the RWC. That's the kind of stuff the "competitive" 40K lacks because it is expected everyones knows what they re coming for.
If some dude was trying to run a bicycle in RWC because the rules don't specify which vehicle you're supposed to use since everyone is supposed to understand you need to come with your best game to win, you would read a lot of whining on the internet.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

The issue with even the current CA missions is that they're unbalanced from mission to mission and some of them have random elements with regards to the objective scoring. The first could be solved by allowing players to change lists between mission rounds as no military would send the same forces to such a diverse set of missions and the second can't be solved without rewriting the offending missions.

It's supposed to be a feature rather than an issue. If you know what you may play but not what you will, you have to prepare for multiple scenarios and can't optimize for a specific one (you will optimise for the whole set rather than one mission). Which some people find more interesting than selecting what you'll have to do before hand. It's as much random as which side you're going to deploy. But since I guess ITC or other "competitive" format, normalise even the terrain you're going to play on, you might not get why this isn't an issue but rather a feature.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/28 15:50:25


 
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Even in wargames the unpredictable and unknown aren't really part and parcel. Dice are used to abstract the performance of questions that are below the scale of the game to resolve [such as an individual soldier shooting.] Terrain and objectives are generally fixed [there's a hill here and the goal is to take that bridge]. Here's a mission from a narrative wargame meant to simulate a conflict...

I see your point but way narrative missions are structured usually enforces variety -- things like game lengths, force compositions, and terrain are likely to be different from scenario-to-scenario are they not?
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Since we're on the subject of random terrain etc can I ask why people think Warmachine Mk2 was able to have randomised terrain layouts at every table in a tournament but still managed to be considered one of the best rulesets available and the best competitive wargame going? The scenarios were also an unknown usually because they were generated on the day and no one knew what the next scenario would be after each round.


 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

dhallnet wrote:
F1 don't either compete with F3000 nor do they race in the RWC. That's the kind of stuff the "competitive" 40K lacks because it is expected everyones knows what they re coming for.
If some dude was trying to run a bicycle in RWC because the rules don't specify which vehicle you're supposed to use since everyone is supposed to understand you need to come with your best game to win, you would read a lot of whining on the internet.

If anybody showed up to any of these events without doing a bare minimum of research they deserve to be laughed out of the venue as does anybody showing up at an ITC even with a fluffy for the lulz style of list.

It's supposed to be a feature rather than an issue. If you know what you may play but not what you will, you have to prepare for multiple scenarios and can't optimize for a specific one (you will optimise for the whole set rather than one mission). Which some people find more interesting than selecting what you'll have to do before hand. It's as much random as which side you're going to deploy. But since I guess ITC or other "competitive" format, normalise even the terrain you're going to play on, you might not get why this isn't an issue but rather a feature.

So would, for example, hockey be improved if we added random obstacles to the ice or moved the faceoff circles between periods because of a roll of the dice? Should we decrease the first-down distance in the NFL because it's boring that teams have optimized around the current 10-yard distance? There's a reason why no sport IRL uses any random mechanic at all, even in the MLB where there can be differences between stadiums these differences are well known and don't change mid-game or even mid-season.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/02 03:55:36


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Canadian 5th wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
F1 don't either compete with F3000 nor do they race in the RWC. That's the kind of stuff the "competitive" 40K lacks because it is expected everyones knows what they re coming for.
If some dude was trying to run a bicycle in RWC because the rules don't specify which vehicle you're supposed to use since everyone is supposed to understand you need to come with your best game to win, you would read a lot of whining on the internet.

If anybody showed up to any of these events without doing a bare minimum of research they deserve to be laughed out of the venue as does anybody showing up at an ITC even with a fluffy for the lulz style of list.

It's supposed to be a feature rather than an issue. If you know what you may play but not what you will, you have to prepare for multiple scenarios and can't optimize for a specific one (you will optimise for the whole set rather than one mission). Which some people find more interesting than selecting what you'll have to do before hand. It's as much random as which side you're going to deploy. But since I guess ITC or other "competitive" format, normalise even the terrain you're going to play on, you might not get why this isn't an issue but rather a feature.

So would, for example, hockey be improved if we added random obstacles to the ice or moved the faceoff circles between periods because of a roll of the dice? Should we decrease the first-down distance in the NFL because it's boring that teams have optimized around the current 10-yard distance? There's a reason why no sport IRL uses any random mechanic at all, even in the MLB where there can be differences between stadiums these differences are well known and don't change mid-game or even mid-season.

Obviously, no major sport would allow anything random to affect an event.

That's why all football games are held indoors, where inclement weather couldn't possibly affect the game. And if they were actually held outside, all games would obviously be postponed if anything but perfect weather conditions were present.

The same can be said for professional racing. The perfectly regulated domes in which these events are held prevents such things as extreme heat and humidity affecting how engines run, or tires wear. Lucky they block out all precipitation, as it could possibly affect track conditions.

Of course this talk of sports is silly, 40k is a wargame, and we all know that wars are fought only in conditions far more heavily regulated than any sport. No two combatants would ever commit their forces unless they knew the battlefield and all it's conditions perfectly suited their goals and the forces they brought to achieve them. There is absolutely no instance in the historical record of a commander being caught with a force not perfectly suited to the environment he's been assigned to fight in. Never has an army been forced to fight with unsuitable, old, or insufficient resources. No force has ever been defeated, or achieved victory due to any kind of unforeseen circumstances.

Obviously.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Gadzilla666 wrote:
...Obviously, no major sport would allow anything random to affect an event.

That's why all football games are held indoors, where inclement weather couldn't possibly affect the game. And if they were actually held outside, all games would obviously be postponed if anything but perfect weather conditions were present.

The same can be said for professional racing. The perfectly regulated domes in which these events are held prevents such things as extreme heat and humidity affecting how engines run, or tires wear. Lucky they block out all precipitation, as it could possibly affect track conditions.

Of course this talk of sports is silly, 40k is a wargame, and we all know that wars are fought only in conditions far more heavily regulated than any sport. No two combatants would ever commit their forces unless they knew the battlefield and all it's conditions perfectly suited their goals and the forces they brought to achieve them. There is absolutely no instance in the historical record of a commander being caught with a force not perfectly suited to the environment he's been assigned to fight in. Never has an army been forced to fight with unsuitable, old, or insufficient resources. No force has ever been defeated, or achieved victory due to any kind of unforeseen circumstances.

Obviously.


Wander back the other direction for a moment. There are random elements, sure. There are also a lot of really tightly controlled elements. Motor racing is done on a constant track with clearly-defined boundaries. Football (either sort) is always done on a pitch of the same dimensions with goalposts of the same dimensions. The rules are the same from game to game.

I might venture to suggest that sports go out of their way to make the whole exercise as controlled as is economically feasible.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
...Obviously, no major sport would allow anything random to affect an event.

That's why all football games are held indoors, where inclement weather couldn't possibly affect the game. And if they were actually held outside, all games would obviously be postponed if anything but perfect weather conditions were present.

The same can be said for professional racing. The perfectly regulated domes in which these events are held prevents such things as extreme heat and humidity affecting how engines run, or tires wear. Lucky they block out all precipitation, as it could possibly affect track conditions.

Of course this talk of sports is silly, 40k is a wargame, and we all know that wars are fought only in conditions far more heavily regulated than any sport. No two combatants would ever commit their forces unless they knew the battlefield and all it's conditions perfectly suited their goals and the forces they brought to achieve them. There is absolutely no instance in the historical record of a commander being caught with a force not perfectly suited to the environment he's been assigned to fight in. Never has an army been forced to fight with unsuitable, old, or insufficient resources. No force has ever been defeated, or achieved victory due to any kind of unforeseen circumstances.

Obviously.


Wander back the other direction for a moment. There are random elements, sure. There are also a lot of really tightly controlled elements. Motor racing is done on a constant track with clearly-defined boundaries. Football (either sort) is always done on a pitch of the same dimensions with goalposts of the same dimensions. The rules are the same from game to game.

I might venture to suggest that sports go out of their way to make the whole exercise as controlled as is economically feasible.

But random elements do exist, and make events more interesting. A football game played in the snow is more interesting than one played in perfect conditions, partly due to how the teams are forced to adapt to the different conditions. They don't merely turn around and not play just because the conditions aren't perfect. They adapt. A quarterback or coach who can't adapt won't have a job for very long. A good 40k player should be able to adapt just the same, not expect to win the game through list building.
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Obviously, no major sport would allow anything random to affect an event.

That's why all football games are held indoors, where inclement weather couldn't possibly affect the game. And if they were actually held outside, all games would obviously be postponed if anything but perfect weather conditions were present.

The same can be said for professional racing. The perfectly regulated domes in which these events are held prevents such things as extreme heat and humidity affecting how engines run, or tires wear. Lucky they block out all precipitation, as it could possibly affect track conditions.

How about hockey then? Aside from a few events (read: gimmicks) each season it's a sport played in a temperature-controlled arena where each rink is of a standardized size.

Of course this talk of sports is silly, 40k is a wargame, and we all know that wars are fought only in conditions far more heavily regulated than any sport. No two combatants would ever commit their forces unless they knew the battlefield and all it's conditions perfectly suited their goals and the forces they brought to achieve them. There is absolutely no instance in the historical record of a commander being caught with a force not perfectly suited to the environment he's been assigned to fight in. Never has an army been forced to fight with unsuitable, old, or insufficient resources. No force has ever been defeated, or achieved victory due to any kind of unforeseen circumstances.

Obviously.

IRL armies aren't balanced by points either, should we just allow players to bring their entire collections and let the player with the better economy (read: bank account) walk away as the winner as they do in real warfare?

Honestly, it sounds like you get a lot more out of narrative play than matched tournament play so why not just go off and do that and leave the tournament crowd alone to play as they like?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
But random elements do exist, and make events more interesting. A football game played in the snow is more interesting than one played in perfect conditions, partly due to how the teams are forced to adapt to the different conditions. They don't merely turn around and not play just because the conditions aren't perfect. They adapt. A quarterback or coach who can't adapt won't have a job for very long. A good 40k player should be able to adapt just the same, not expect to win the game through list building.

Football played in the snow can lead to miserable matches that are terrible to watch, the same goes for games played in heavy rain or where the wind is gusting badly. Football games also can be called off due to weather if it gets bad enough. In a similar fashion, we've already had reports of CA missions leading to very one-sided matches due to the specific mission favouring one list heavily over the other, which doesn't sound ideal for either player. Beyond that teams are mostly built in the offseason and then brought out to play the season, in the cases where there have been major changes to the rules you see the types of players that teams value change.

Football teams, both types again, also don't just field one unit the entire game, they get bench players they can call in as circumstances change. So if we wanted to keep with the analogy we'd have to allow tournament players to bring additional models (say 500 points) so they can change their army based on the mission type. If this change was made I might actually support using chapter approved missions with full knowledge that this increases the cost of entry to new players.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/02 07:14:26


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

40k isn't a sport, and it isn't real war.

It's a chance based wargame, and terrain is an element of that chance.
The objectives are supposed to test aspects of your list, you aren't supposed to chose the ones that suit you best.


-~Ishagu~- 
   
 
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