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Not Online!!! wrote: I think it is justifyable to enforce atleast temporarily a vacination in order to wipe out an illness via a punctual effort, in such a way and legitimized propperly via democratic processes, i feel like you coulld justify an absolute enforcement over a temporary period of time.
Not that I've ever been one to argue with something like a proven vaccine, but hear me out. Play hypothetical with me.
What you gonna do if I refuse to come and get my shot?
I want you to think about that for a second.
Who you sending?
A law requires the authority to enforce it. And authority without the means and willingness to do violence is just a request.
That is a highly legality over legitimacy approach, but i am swiss, not bowing down to the decision of the masses in such a case, therefore not bowing your head in regards to the legitimacy over legality approach found in the institutions over here would lead to legitimate systemic violence torwards you.
In this case that can be either of these: Neighbours, muncipial government, cantonal or federal.
Pick your poison.
But that is mostly a difference in approach of the states in question no?
My core point was, that the the core issue of the the whole compulsury vaccination, targets the issue of personal freedom vs other individuals personal freedoms.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 07:45:43
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Dreadwinter wrote: This statement makes it seem as if the WHO was telling people to go out to festivals and movies and that they said the Person to Person thing in March. At no point do you mention New York or the Mayor of New York.
I am not sure how I was supposed to know all of this stuff about New York and the Mayor from your original statement. I guess my reading comprehension isn't what it used to be.
I'll allow it. Probably should've been a bit more clear. You get this one.
In this case that can be either of these: Neighbours, muncipial government, cantonal or federal.
Pick your poison.
Not everyone is going to be okay with being torn from their home and forcibly injected with Coof Juice.
That's a very dangerous scenario for quite a few people.
Now, of course, you give me the option to get a vaccine or something and I'm going to absolutely be all over that coof juice because by damn, my taxes probably paid for it and half the other problems, I'm going to get the coof juice and I better get a damned lollypop and a sticker to go with it.
However- at the end of the day, you are asking that someone be forcefully removed from their home to get some injection into their body by force.
I mean, everyone else should be vaccinated, right? Unless you're intervening for the safety of this guy's children at the home... you're crossing an ethical boundary that, in all honesty- would be hard to argue against getting a violent response.
Better send a bachelor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 07:46:58
i'll repeat it because i was editing it and you may missed it:
But that is mostly a difference in approach of the states in question no?
My core point was, that the the core issue of the the whole compulsury vaccination, targets the issue of personal freedom vs other individuals personal freedoms.
like i said, of course it's a grey area but how the states in question can behave is diffrent, Switzerland could force it through, especially if covered by a referendum in it's favour.
The states, not so much probably.
Because as rightfully pointed out, it tangents the ethical lines and baseline structure of constitutional states and their approach to legal questions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 07:53:11
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Because as rightfully pointed out, it tangents the ethical lines and baseline structure of constitutional states and their approach to legal questions.
Here's the thing you're going to hear:
"If everyone is vaccinated and Old Bob Slipperdoodle is refusing to comply, then he's the guy that isn't vaccinated and everyone else is- what's the problem?" Of course I know it's a bit more complex than this, or at least it can be.
If the risk is "this one guy didn't get his coof juice to keep him from getting the Wu Flu", then...feth that guy, let him deal with the consequences. It's his body, his choice. Unless you can show me how it'll be a real hazard if that one guy refuses the coof juice? Well, just a lesson from Waco- don't stand near the damned window to get your 'badass photo op'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 09:50:51
Not Online!!! wrote: Because as rightfully pointed out, it tangents the ethical lines and baseline structure of constitutional states and their approach to legal questions.
Here's the thing you're going to hear:
"If everyone is vaccinated and Old Bob Slipperdoodle is refusing to comply, then he's the guy that isn't vaccinated and everyone else is- what's the problem?" Of course I know it's a bit more complex than this, or at least it can be.
If the risk is "this one guy didn't get his coof juice to keep him from getting the Wu Flu", then... feth that guy, let him deal with the consequences. It's his body, his choice. Unless you can show me how it'll be a real hazard if that one guy refuses the coof juice? Well, just a lesson from Waco- don't stand near the damned window to get your 'badass photo op'.
It is more of, how many friends does that one guy have? Because vaccines are a percentage game. You need a certain percentage of the population to be vaccinated or it is pointless. Then it comes down to "Alright, is it worth it to not force these people to vaccinate and risk X number of lives or do we force them and risk them becoming violent?"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 09:51:16
Not Online!!! wrote: Because as rightfully pointed out, it tangents the ethical lines and baseline structure of constitutional states and their approach to legal questions.
Here's the thing you're going to hear:
"If everyone is vaccinated and Old Bob Slipperdoodle is refusing to comply, then he's the guy that isn't vaccinated and everyone else is- what's the problem?" Of course I know it's a bit more complex than this, or at least it can be.
If the risk is "this one guy didn't get his coof juice to keep him from getting the Wu Flu", then... feth that guy, let him deal with the consequences. It's his body, his choice. Unless you can show me how it'll be a real hazard if that one guy refuses the coof juice? Well, just a lesson from Waco- don't stand near the damned window to get your 'badass photo op'.
tbf, slipperdoodle is an issue for anyone with a compromised immune system and other verifyably valid reasons can't take their vaccines.
Not only is he a danger to himself which he can be so long he pleases but also a danger to these folks aswell.
it would be perfectly valid to restrict him to specific areas. simple consequence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 09:51:45
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Its a tricky issue for sure. I err on the side on not enforcing things like that though. Enforcement against natural freedoms can lead to resentment, and turn people, who would probably possess enough altruism to be swayed by reasonable explanation, against your cause.
We've never required mandatory vaccination in the UK before, I don't think it should change now, especially not in regards to this specific virus and its mortality rate.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/27 08:20:52
Not Online!!! wrote: Because as rightfully pointed out, it tangents the ethical lines and baseline structure of constitutional states and their approach to legal questions.
Here's the thing you're going to hear:
"If everyone is vaccinated and Old Bob Slipperdoodle is refusing to comply, then he's the guy that isn't vaccinated and everyone else is- what's the problem?" Of course I know it's a bit more complex than this, or at least it can be.
If the risk is "this one guy didn't get his coof juice to keep him from getting the Wu Flu", then... F**k that guy, let him deal with the consequences. It's his body, his choice. Unless you can show me how it'll be a real hazard if that one guy refuses the coof juice? Well, just a lesson from Waco- don't stand near the damned window to get your 'badass photo op'.
tbf, slipperdoodle is an issue for anyone with a compromised immune system and other verifyably valid reasons can't take their vaccines.
Not only is he a danger to himself which he can be so long he pleases but also a danger to these folks aswell.
it would be perfectly valid to restrict him to specific areas. simple consequence.
The immuno-compromised take, or should be taking adequate precautions, simply because of the myriad of other hazards to them that cant really be removed by legislation. That in itself is not a reason to blanket violate the natural freedoms of entire populations.
Not Online!!! wrote: it would be perfectly valid to restrict him to specific areas. simple consequence.
The trouble is, this leads to ID cards.
How else do you know whether someone has or has not had a jab?
sure it would be difficult, but the key issue is again, to reiterate, that it tangents the baseline of a state.
over here he would get probably fined to hell and back and forced to take the jab because everything else in this scenario would be regarded as illegitimate.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
sure it would be difficult, but the key issue is again, to reiterate, that it tangents the baseline of a state.
over here he would get probably fined to hell and back and forced to take the jab because everything else in this scenario would be regarded as illegitimate.
Fined? Sounds great, until he looks at the person demanding his money and says "get fethed".
Now we're back at the daring raid to make this man take his coof juice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 09:53:09
Not Online!!! wrote: Because as rightfully pointed out, it tangents the ethical lines and baseline structure of constitutional states and their approach to legal questions.
Here's the thing you're going to hear:
"If everyone is vaccinated and Old Bob Slipperdoodle is refusing to comply, then he's the guy that isn't vaccinated and everyone else is- what's the problem?" Of course I know it's a bit more complex than this, or at least it can be.
If the risk is "this one guy didn't get his coof juice to keep him from getting the Wu Flu", then... feth that guy, let him deal with the consequences. It's his body, his choice. Unless you can show me how it'll be a real hazard if that one guy refuses the coof juice? Well, just a lesson from Waco- don't stand near the damned window to get your 'badass photo op'.
tbf, slipperdoodle is an issue for anyone with a compromised immune system and other verifyably valid reasons can't take their vaccines.
Not only is he a danger to himself which he can be so long he pleases but also a danger to these folks aswell.
it would be perfectly valid to restrict him to specific areas. simple consequence.
The immuno-compromised take, or should be taking adequate precautions, simply because of the myriad of other hazards to them that cant really be removed by legislation. That in itself is not a reason to blanket violate the natural freedoms of entire populations.
i'll repeat it because i was editing it and you may missed it:
But that is mostly a difference in approach of the states in question no?
My core point was, that the the core issue of the the whole compulsury vaccination, targets the issue of personal freedom vs other individuals personal freedoms.
like i said, of course it's a grey area but how the states in question can behave is diffrent, Switzerland could force it through, especially if covered by a referendum in it's favour.
The states, not so much probably.
Because as rightfully pointed out, it tangents the ethical lines and baseline structure of constitutional states and their approach to legal questions.
I'd like to mention that I just point to the statesphilosophical point and this in no means represent my opinion on the matter.
But in this case, if done over here, with a referendum as backing on the question it would look bad for slipperdoodle.
sure it would be difficult, but the key issue is again, to reiterate, that it tangents the baseline of a state.
over here he would get probably fined to hell and back and forced to take the jab because everything else in this scenario would be regarded as illegitimate.
Fined? Sounds great, until he looks at the person demanding his money and says "get fethed".
Now we're back at the daring raid to make this man take his coof juice.
wouldn't be the first time somone got legitimatly shot over here.
You forget that switzerland is inherently instable, the only reason it works is because people accept the democratic process of the institutions and slipperdoodle over here would be in violation of that.
good riddance would probably be the only remark you'd hear as harsh as that sounds.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/05/27 09:55:42
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: [spoiler]wouldn't be the first time somone got legitimatly shot over here.
You forget that switzerland is inherently instable, the only reason it works is because people accept the democratic process of the institutions and slipperdoodle over here would be in violation of that.
good riddance would probably be the only remark you'd hear as harsh as that sounds.
Probably. Sounds simple enough.
...until that door breach isn't the only bang. Or something to that effect. You can act like guns are hard to get over there, but it ain't like explosives are hard to make.
Hope he was worth the other guys you brought.
Just saying- this is another human being's body you're talking about, and you're forcing substances into his body against his will and without his consent. Unless you can demonstrate that not doing so to this one specific person is somehow a threat to other people? You're very much violating someone's body.
And if he was paranoid, suspicious? Congratulations- you just validated him, and many others like him.
Good luck. You still got those Sword guys, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 08:40:10
It's probably torpedoed tons of fines handed out for breaking lockdown, so I imagine you're glad it's hit the news hard for that reason, if nothing else?
Hancock has just said that yes, they may well have to revisit and revise fines handed out to people traveling.
Literally retrospectively changing legal penalties to protect an advisor.
And now the official line is that Hancock did not mean this.
sure it would be difficult, but the key issue is again, to reiterate, that it tangents the baseline of a state.
over here he would get probably fined to hell and back and forced to take the jab because everything else in this scenario would be regarded as illegitimate.
Fined? Sounds great, until he looks at the person demanding his money and says "get fethed".
Now we're back at the daring raid to make this man take his coof juice.
Fined, then when he says "get fethed" the police roll in to retrieve the money. He retreats to his home because he cannot hold off that kind of force. Then we have him quarantined. He can pay it or hopefully self sustain on his property. Otherwise he is going to get hungry and have to give up eventually.
Don't need a raid, just need patience. Not everything is some crazy "YOU WILL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE" scenario for all the little rebels and militiamen out there.
Edit: Just like to point out, this worked perfectly fine with the Branch Dildonians.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/27 10:10:25
Not Online!!! wrote: [spoiler]wouldn't be the first time somone got legitimatly shot over here.
You forget that switzerland is inherently instable, the only reason it works is because people accept the democratic process of the institutions and slipperdoodle over here would be in violation of that.
good riddance would probably be the only remark you'd hear as harsh as that sounds.
Probably. Sounds simple enough.
...until that door breach isn't the only bang. Or something to that effect. You can act like guns are hard to get over there, but it ain't like explosives are hard to make.
Hope he was worth the other guys you brought.
Just saying- this is another human being's body you're talking about, and you're forcing substances into his body against his will and without his consent. Unless you can demonstrate that not doing so to this one specific person is somehow a threat to other people? You're very much violating someone's body.
And if he was paranoid, suspicious? Congratulations- you just validated him, and many others like him.
Good luck. You still got those Sword guys, right?
? What sword guys? I am swiss, at most you'd see a halberd or pike in regards to mediavel weaponry.
Also gun ownership is about the same level as texas with far less gun violence. You know, mandatory conscription and all that..
As for the his body part, yeah but not just his body is in danger.
If he is paranoid then that is covered in the mandate healthcare insurance all swiss citizens have, he'd be declared non responsible for his behaviour because he isn't and brought into mental health institution to help him get better.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Tidied this somewhat, remember the rules everyone.
1. Be polite (that includes not swearing).
2. Stay on topic.
3. No spam.
Any further failures to comply with these really simple instructions will results in further warnings/suspensions/deportations to Antarctica without a jumper.
You have been warned.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 10:04:59
Labour MP Ian Mearns asks why schools in the NE (approx 500 cases per 100,000) are reopening at same time as those in Devon and Cornwall where incidence of #Covid19 is about a fifth of that.
Gibb says SAGE only recognise a national R rate, not regional ones.
That seems.. unwise/ridiculous.
If this is the case then one doesn't see how we're going to correctly apply things like regional lockdowns or take further actions when the figures can be wildly skewed like this.
Morning temperature checks as 2.4 million pupils head back to the classroom in South Korea. The first temp check of the day. Socially distant lines and hand sanitizer also in use. As you can see in the video, one student’s temp was up because of a hot drink in her bag!
The students have been filling in a phone app every day to monitor any symptoms. They also manage to keep apart at the school gate despite not having seen one another for some time!
447 schools across South Korea postponed their opening today due to fears of covid-19 infection.
111 of those were in the capital Seoul.
However, 2.8 million students are in class today wearing masks and having their temperature taken. More are due to return next week.
South Korea has reported its highest daily number of coronavirus cases in 49 days just as more than 2 million pupils return to school. 40 new cases of Covid-19 have been reported today. Most related to the nightclub cluster in Seoul. It’s making teachers ever more vigilant..
People saying this jump is, possibly, related to nightclubs/similar reopening earlier -- maybe even 1 particular hotspot perhaps ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 10:51:13
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
All it would take is one person in a nightclub and it could easily spread to 40 or more people in one evening. A dense indoor area where people dance around. Even if you try social distancing once people have a few drinks in them that will be the first thing they forget (and even if they remember they'll be more 2 inches than 2m when they try and measure it in a drunk state).
I still don't get the mass need to send students back to schools; esp in the UK since its so close to the Summer that student's won't do much save pass all the viruses they've got around for a few weeks before leaving for the holidays.
Overread wrote: All it would take is one person in a nightclub and it could easily spread to 40 or more people in one evening. A dense indoor area where people dance around. Even if you try social distancing once people have a few drinks in them that will be the first thing they forget (and even if they remember they'll be more 2 inches than 2m when they try and measure it in a drunk state).
I still don't get the mass need to send students back to schools; esp in the UK since its so close to the Summer that student's won't do much save pass all the viruses they've got around for a few weeks before leaving for the holidays.
I think the rationale in the UK is more about getting the economy up and running again. So sending the kids back to school means parents no longer have to be at home to look after them, which allows the parents to go back to work. Not saying it's a good rationale! It does seem to be the case that transmission between kids and from kids to adults is much, much lower than adult-adult transmission, so theoretically there's a lower risk to the kids in reopening schools. My problem comes with the adult-adult interactions surrounding schools. The ones around me get really busy at the start and end of the day and the locations of them don't really lend themselves to allowing easy social distancing of the parents while picking up their kids.
Thing is the schools aren't going to run during the summer, they are mostly sticking to their old holiday pattern. I think the only ones that they might keep on are for essential workers; same as those who have been going to school since lockdowns started.
So its only one or two weeks of getting the economy going again before parents are back to childcaring once more.
My little girl is going back to nursery next monday. That's 6 weeks of socialising and playing with other kids that she drastically needs. Lockdown has been tough for her. She is more emotional and misbehaves more due to only having her parents to hang out with.
The last 3 pages of this thread is why we can not have nice things. It is the old Politics Thread in a microcosm, because some how the response to a Pandemic is now political and not medical. The whole thread should be locked because there are no common grounds or basic facts anymore....
This is not an accusation as I am part of the problem too!
Reminds me a of a couple jokes I heard..... I will put them in Spoilers so you can choose if you want to read them. They are not funny.
Spoiler:
"A guy is stranded on a desert island and prays to god to save him. A boat comes by and offers to pick him up, but he declines because God will save him. Next a Helicopter flies over and offers to help him, but he declines because God will save him. Finally, a Hot air balloonist lands and offers to take him to land, but the man refuses again. God will save him.
The man dies on the island. He goes to the pearly gates and yells angrily at God, "Why didn't you save me?"
The second joke.... I will spoiler them so you can decide if you want to read them. They are not funny....
[spoiler]
"I went to the dentist. They X-rayed my teeth, which we all know if done wrong can cause cancer or sterilize you. They told me I had a cavity and I rescheduled an appointment to get them filled.
When I came back, they showed me the X-ray image and explained what they were going to do to fill them. I knew better.
"Why should I believe you? You just want my money! "
"If you don't get them fixed, the tooth could abscess and kill you?"
"How can I trust you?" You just want my money?"
"I am board certified and graduated from the University after 6 years of Dentistry School. I have been YOUR Dentist for 2 decades now. You choose to come see me?"
"I can't trust you Doc. I didn't vote for you!"
.... and the Aristocrats!
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Thanks for reminding me that a tooth abscess can kill you. I’ve currently got one that I can’t do anything about other than take antibiotics and hope for the best, on account of dentists being closed. If this is what kills me I’ll be seriously pissed off...
And I’ve come to accept that this thread will be closed in time. Dakka just can’t handle real life issues with any maturity. I’ll just enjoy it while it lasts.
Also my neighbours have a beagle puppy and I’m annoyed that I can’t play with her yet. Life sucks atm.
Future War Cultist wrote: Thanks for reminding me that a tooth abscess can kill you. I’ve currently got one that I can’t do anything about other than take antibiotics and hope for the best, on account of dentists being closed. If this is what kills me I’ll be seriously pissed off...
If it gets bad and you start developing symptoms that could be a result of the injection spreading, call your dentist again and/or 111. There are emergency dentists who will be able to treat you and if they do not have one at your dental surgery then 111 should be able to put you in contact with one. Good luck, hope the antibiotics help!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 14:35:27
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
6000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 
4000 pts - 
1000 pts - 
1000 pts 
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
