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The fallen and cypher are in the CSM codex but both have the key words imperium and chaos. I guess this is so you can play your own narrative, some of the fallen seem showing up randomly to help the DA and some have gone over to chaos.

If you were to use a fallen unit and cypher in a DA army it would seem odd to start them on the battlefield as if they are all friends.

That's where it's up to you the hobbiest.

Be imaginative and make up the lore as to why the Da have chosen to fight along side fallen brothers instead of insta capture/kill?

If you''re fighting some GK's. Maybe the GK want to purge them of any chaos taint. They've ran into the main DA, Cypher being charasmatic (he did befriend bobby g and almost get a seat with the emperor) talks to the main DA HQ guy in charge and argues his case. How they will repent but only if they work together. Otherwise the GK will find out the secret and spread across the imperium.

You can also imagine that Cypher and the Fallen are pretending to be reinforcements rather then being normal fallen, and once done will escape before DA realizes they were being assisted otherwise.

Thanks what options are there to bringing them on to the table, I can teleport in deathwing and jump packs can start up in the atmosphere. Is there an option to bring them on from the aide as some kind of reinforcement?

You can have Rhinos if you use their Vigilus 2 rules.

I feel so thick on these forums sometime (although only been at it for 6-7 months) but what is vigilus please?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Imperium-Nihilus-Vigilus-Defiant-HB-ENG-2018

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Vigilus-Ablaze-EN-hb-2019

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You can have Rhinos if you use their Vigilus 2 rules.

They lose the IMPERIUM keyword if you do that though.

mrFickle wrote:
I feel so thick on these forums sometime

Please don't.

Games Workshop has created a situation where it is almost impossible to know which rules are where.

It's on them, not you.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I feel so thick on these forums sometime

Please don't.

Games Workshop has created a situation where it is almost impossible to know which rules are where.

It's on them, not you.

Yup, at 140 rulessources it's impossible to know all.

Thanks all. So they are extra rules like PA.

They lose the imperium keyword but what’s the point of that keyword anyway, I’ve not seen a stratagem fornit

So that you can take them in an Imperium Detachment/army.

mrFickle wrote:
The fallen and cypher are in the CSM codex but both have the key words imperium and chaos. I guess this is so you can play your own narrative, some of the fallen seem showing up randomly to help the DA and some have gone over to chaos.

If you were to use a fallen unit and cypher in a DA army it would seem odd to start them on the battlefield as if they are all friends.

I always took it to be more that Cypher and The Fallen might help other Imperium armies, rather than allying with the one faction who is aware of, and determined to end, their existence. Not to say that there's no narrative fun to be had from taking them alongside full DA. Hell, that's all Fallen are really, a bit of narrative fun.

Another possibility is that the 'Fallen' aren't the actual fallen in your army, but rather a different SM chapter. One that's far more idiosyncratic than most.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Another possibility is that the 'Fallen' aren't the actual fallen in your army, but rather a different SM chapter. One that's far more idiosyncratic than most.

It's long been traditional for people to rationalise DA vs BA fights as reports of the Death Company in their black armour being Fallen and the DA zealously hunting them down just in case. I'd be surprised if at least one Interrogator Chaplain hasn't seen his reflection or even his shadow and went full on into torture mode trying to find out who this member of The Fallen is.

FWIW the Fallen I'm currently working on are primarily a CSM force, of actual remnants from the DA Legion as well as others (mostly from one successor chapter whose Chapter Master was brought into the DA Inner Circle and proceeded to go into the Eye Of Terror to find out the truth/bring his brothers back to talk it out like grown ups) who have a wide variety of allegiances ranging from "still loyal to the Emperor" to "loyal to the Lion" to "blood skulls skullybloods raaar!" and everything in between. Being a BA player I'm well aware of how Astartes don't want to lose their brothers, even when they're gone too far (see: Death Company, Dreadnaughts, people with too much jewellery, etc) so those who are still fully loyal in their hearts are sticking with their more tainted brothers out of loyalty, or the vain hope they might redeem them. There are ones who think they're still loyal and really aren't and then there are the ones who are at least honest about their corruption.

Yeah, the ones I'm working on are random marines following a Sister Oblatia trying to die (Cypher). In the process of not dying she and her growing band have won great victories, discovered relics, and performed 'miracles'.