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I hope so. I own a Plague Hulk and a Blight Drone, both are very similar to GW units - but cost 80points more for weaker weaponry.

Rebalancing? Yes, definitely required, given all the Index rules were written in a pre-Codex world - and in a hurry, by a team that weren't given much notice of the need for the rules.

Nerfing units into the ground because of the LVO, without taking into account of whether the problem is due to interactions with rules outside of the Index datasheets? No, not necessarily.

As a sidebar, I disagree with the premise that FW units being common at an event is automatically a negative.

 Ishagu wrote:
Most Forgeworld units need significant power increases.

Only in mind of GW who wants just collectors buy 1 of each since they don't buy multiples anyway. Gamers they want to buy plastic since 100$ on plastic is worth more to GW than 100$ on FW resin.

tneva82 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Most Forgeworld units need significant power increases.

Only in mind of GW who wants just collectors buy 1 of each since they don't buy multiples anyway. Gamers they want to buy plastic since 100$ on plastic is worth more to GW than 100$ on FW resin.

This again? People who use fw are gamers as well. We just see our armies as more than playing pieces and actually care about the lore and setting.

Gw wants to sell fw. Otherwise they wouldn't make the models. Why would they make something and not care if it sells?

Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

well If I lose 1$, and someone else loses 10000$. then even if 1$ is all I have they lost more. Makes sense marines players would feel most effected by the FW turning legend or something like that.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Most people won't complain if you use your Krieg or Elysian troops as Infantry for something else though. Kinda hard to use a Relic Contemptor if they nerf it to the ground because, let's be honest, the codex Contemptor is fething awful as is and whoever let that entry slide should be ashamed of themselves.

Doesn't it depened on the writers goals? If the end goal of making a sm codex is to make it unfun to use the majority of old marine units, then it works just fine. Same with chaos marines, if the job of the codex writer was to make it so that playing a non soup list is an act of self punishment, then the last csm book is a job well done.

Something like that could be true with FW stuff too. Leviathans and chaplain dread didn't become mind breaking good at the start of 8th. they became very good when they got access to non existing when their rules were writen chaplain bonus rules and the new rules for Iron Hands. For all we know GW may want to slowly phase out FW, or leave it to do terrain, big collector models, stuff for necromunda and blood bowl etc.

I think that whilst the rules do need a re-write and re-balance I fear they will just change what is good and what is not. I don't think they will do this in a calculating profit driven way, just in a nerf the good stuff, buff the bad stuff kind of way. When they do this they have a tendancy to alter things too much, multiple little adjustment are much better than single large ones but that is the problem of going with a printed ruleset over an living digital one.

With regard to particular units mentioned (I own and have used all of them):
The Chappy dread has always been good but expensive, dropping its points and giving it litanies whilst still keeping its old aura was just stupid, needs uping in points and possibly limited access to litanies or its own special one to replicate its old aura, its just all round to good atm.

The Leviathan is expensive! you pay alot of points for a slow short ranged model, it needs to be deadly and it is. It needs to survivable and it is. The problem arises when you add the basic dreadnought strats to it (and Iron hand CT but thats another issue), halving damage is fine on a 8W 3+ save model but not on a 14W 2+4++ model. The strats are the problem not really the basic rules, you could happily up the cost of the storm cannons as they are the cheapest and best of all the weapon (GW has a tendancy to undercost multishot weapons for some reason despite their performance against everything). Perhaps some rule preventing it from using normal dread strats.

The thunderfire is just too good, it was good in the previous codex and then they gave it a 2+ save and 2+ BS for no cost increase, doubled the techmarine's wounds and left the price the same. Add to that the combination of a strat that slows down enemies and one that lets you fire twice....... just silly.

The Thunderfire was mediocre before, not good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Most people won't complain if you use your Krieg or Elysian troops as Infantry for something else though. Kinda hard to use a Relic Contemptor if they nerf it to the ground because, let's be honest, the codex Contemptor is fething awful as is and whoever let that entry slide should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh, no disagreements for me, but what about Corsairs? Or R&H with more distinct ruleset/ units?
And for the general ruleswriting , they just futureproofed their recurring sales.

I have to admit to only look at it from an IG perspective, but I think there is quite a bit of room for rebalancing.
I really like the look of the Macharius and Malcador tanks and the artillery pieces, it would be nice if they would fit better in between the Leman Russ and Baneblades regarding their power/cost ratio, so that one might see more mixed vehicle pools.

Also even if I don't play them, the Death Korps has such a cool look and interesting background and really deserve to be brought up to the standard regiments, were they are lacking.
And R&H also deserve some love in my personal opinion.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Most people won't complain if you use your Krieg or Elysian troops as Infantry for something else though. Kinda hard to use a Relic Contemptor if they nerf it to the ground because, let's be honest, the codex Contemptor is fething awful as is and whoever let that entry slide should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh, no disagreements for me, but what about Corsairs? Or R&H with more distinct ruleset/ units?
And for the general ruleswriting , they just futureproofed their recurring sales.

You've probably heard me ramble about how I would handle Renegade Marine Chapters. If not I'll repeat it even though it'll likely annoy everyone else. I would basically handle R&H the same way: once you switch out the keywords and all that fun stuff, you lose your Regiment's regular special units, and you get a small slew of new ones.

TBF, i fully expect nothing to happen to R&H and somewhere this summer gw thrwoing out another dex for Traitor guard / lost and the damned on the basis off their Traitorguard models from BSF.

completely missing the point of the army.

Also on the krieg side, they axed an whole list (krieg had 2 one for line battles and one for assault i believe), which just doesn't exist anymore both with unique mechanics.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Most people won't complain if you use your Krieg or Elysian troops as Infantry for something else though. Kinda hard to use a Relic Contemptor if they nerf it to the ground because, let's be honest, the codex Contemptor is fething awful as is and whoever let that entry slide should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh, no disagreements for me, but what about Corsairs? Or R&H with more distinct ruleset/ units?
And for the general ruleswriting , they just futureproofed their recurring sales.

You've probably heard me ramble about how I would handle Renegade Marine Chapters. If not I'll repeat it even though it'll likely annoy everyone else. I would basically handle R&H the same way: once you switch out the keywords and all that fun stuff, you lose your Regiment's regular special units, and you get a small slew of new ones.

Then you have no idea what R&H was and represents and thank god you are not designing it.

 Asmodai wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Sisters. They get nothing.

Repressor will probably get moved to Legends.

There is no Legends-equivalent for Forge World. Not sure it's even worth it to try and re-do matched-play balanced rules for OOP Forge World stuff, even if it just for Legends.

More likely, they just disappear, would be my guess.

Doesn't AoS have some old stuff from FW in their version of legends?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Sisters. They get nothing.

Repressor will probably get moved to Legends.

There is no Legends-equivalent for Forge World. Not sure it's even worth it to try and re-do matched-play balanced rules for OOP Forge World stuff, even if it just for Legends.

More likely, they just disappear, would be my guess.

They'll probably start a legends entry for fw. It's just online so the cost would be minimal. They are probably holding off for these books. Might be able to sell a few more old ia books for people running oop models.

Yes, FW needs to be addressed across the board, but, if they do it properly then the vast majority of stuff will get improved, rather than nerfed. Which will be good imo.

Yes, a couple of units need to be looked at in relation to their available rules, but I wouldn’t expect too heavy a nerf as someone taking a unit in a “non-competitive” Chapter will be a concern for GW.

Things like the Levi dread might just see a points increase on the cannons, as opposed to the base unit for example.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Iron Hands are hurting the game, not those units.

GW balances things through giant pendulum swings. They'll see the effects these units are having, not realise that it's the Iron Hands causing this issue, and "balance" them for everyone.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I hope so. I own a Plague Hulk and a Blight Drone, both are very similar to GW units - but cost 80points more for weaker weaponry.

I own both Hierodules, and cannot fathom a world in which either are useful, so I sympathise.

The Hierodules are well over 400 points each, and slightly tougher than a Tyrannofex.

Unfortunately even dropping their points by 150-200 wouldn't make them useful, it'd just make them cheaper. They need to do serious revisions to the units themselves, not just tweak their points values (although sometimes it is points values, like the Malanthrope, a unit that can hardly fight and has a tiny, tiny aura jumping to 120 points from 90).

I don't own any FW stuff, but the fact that someone at GW thought it was a good idea to price a twin psycannon turret as if it was a hvy psycannon on a razorback is maybe not comperable, because of the difference in money cost of a turret and a hierodul, but still funny. At least to me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Thunderfire was mediocre before, not good.

It's not even a FW product, so I'm not sure why it's even in this discussion...

(Not aiming this at you, just saying in general)

Hell look at the ork fw, nearly everything is totaly crappy

The formula is simple:

They will nerf the things that they see everyone already has and buff the the things they want to sell more of.

They are just gonna copy-paste all the index entries, less the ones whose models were discontinued, with the same pts and everything. Except the Leviathan and Chaplain Dread which will see drastic pts increases. And DKoK infantry which will inexplicably go up to 55 pts per model.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
They are just gonna copy-paste all the index entries, less the ones whose models were discontinued, with the same pts and everything. Except the Leviathan and Chaplain Dread which will see drastic pts increases. And DKoK infantry which will inexplicably go up to 55 pts per model.

Well played good sier well played.

 Asmodai wrote:
Most FW units need 30-50% points cuts.

Or the same rules as their GW brethern. For example Death Korps getting the regimental rules that are on par with the other regiments.

Saying that I think it is mostly an exercise in making units 'Legends'.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:
Most FW units need 30-50% points cuts.

Or the same rules as their GW brethern. For example Death Korps getting the regimental rules that are on par with the other regiments.

Saying that I think it is mostly an exercise in making units 'Legends'.

They would still be conparatively overpriced on alot of Units though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Most people won't complain if you use your Krieg or Elysian troops as Infantry for something else though. Kinda hard to use a Relic Contemptor if they nerf it to the ground because, let's be honest, the codex Contemptor is fething awful as is and whoever let that entry slide should be ashamed of themselves.

Custodes are in a weird spot though because they don't just have more FW options than they do plastic ones, they're practically relying on FW to make them viable at all because they have so few plastic kits out.

It's probably pretty easy to figure out if you look at the models on the FW site and remember that the general GW rule is 'no model, no rules'.

Which is precisely why I think unless something drastic happens Mr. Issodon will soon be joining the ranks of the Legends... if he's lucky.