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Last time GW tried to balance something we got marines 2.0.

I do not have a lot of confidence that this will make anything better.

Different yes. Better no.

[insert CA2019 needed corrections a month ago joke here]

bananathug wrote:
Last time GW tried to balance something we got marines 2.0.

I do not have a lot of confidence that this will make anything better.

Different yes. Better no.

[insert CA2019 needed corrections a month ago joke here]

We also got chaos marines 2.0, space marines 1.0 and the entirety of every book in 8th.

Dudeface wrote:
We also got chaos marines 2.0, space marines 1.0 and the entirety of every book in 8th.

Not really. We got CSM 1.5, PA was more CSM 2.0 than the codex that got released last year. It wasn't like after last year's codex people were suddenly 'Hmm, Night lords...' or 'omg, Emperor's Children...', PA at least caused a conversation about them, even if it ultimately ended up coming back around to 'Yeah, still Alpha Legion...'.

Kinda sorta. Some do, some don't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Iron Hands are hurting the game, not those units.

Some people just keep getting it wrong.

Iron Hands are the biggest offender for sure. But lets not stick our heads in the sand and ignore the fact Space Marines as a whole right now are incredibly strong even without all the supplements. For instsnce the Thunderfire cannon and strat are in the base codex.

 Melissia wrote:
Kinda sorta. Some do, some don't.

pretty much this, so the question really is will they fix / nerf the right units, I'm leaning towards not really, and of course no Corsairs cos fup you Xenos dinks no fun subfactions for you

The Salt Mine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Iron Hands are hurting the game, not those units.

Some people just keep getting it wrong.

Iron Hands are the biggest offender for sure. But lets not stick our heads in the sand and ignore the fact Space Marines as a whole right now are incredibly strong even without all the supplements. For instsnce the Thunderfire cannon and strat are in the base codex.

only before the new codex and rules. marines weren't really that good. So the nerfs are suppose to take us back to that, where the majority of players have an army on avarge weaker then other armies? I guess it would be nice for non marine player, but why should the minority of players have a good time playing?

I hope they do get some buffs with the nerfs. There are plenty of units with amazing models that are terrible. my fav eldar model is the Wraithseer but since I have been playing I cannot recall it ever being good.

my custom stompas have always been bad. I don't need them being the best model but would be fun to throw em down against imeprial knight lists and have a chance. same for squigoths.

I also woudl love to see tau tetras see play along with all the cool necron fw units that i have literally never seen on a tabletop so i am assuming they are bad.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Iron Hands are hurting the game, not those units.

Some people just keep getting it wrong.

Iron Hands are the biggest offender for sure. But lets not stick our heads in the sand and ignore the fact Space Marines as a whole right now are incredibly strong even without all the supplements. For instsnce the Thunderfire cannon and strat are in the base codex.

It's like when Ynnari was the biggest offender and they nerfed Shining Spears.

They needed it too. Both needed a nerf.

By rebalance FW, the OP of course means "sell more books". That's the true, less noble goal!

The Salt Mine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Iron Hands are hurting the game, not those units.

Some people just keep getting it wrong.

Iron Hands are the biggest offender for sure. But lets not stick our heads in the sand and ignore the fact Space Marines as a whole right now are incredibly strong even without all the supplements. For instsnce the Thunderfire cannon and strat are in the base codex.

And now the Thunderfire is actually good. Shocker I know. Complain about Stratagems all you want, but units need to be viable without them at least. Thunderfire Cannons do that and thank goodness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Most people won't complain if you use your Krieg or Elysian troops as Infantry for something else though. Kinda hard to use a Relic Contemptor if they nerf it to the ground because, let's be honest, the codex Contemptor is fething awful as is and whoever let that entry slide should be ashamed of themselves.

Custodes are in a weird spot though because they don't just have more FW options than they do plastic ones, they're practically relying on FW to make them viable at all because they have so few plastic kits out.

Custodes will suffer the most, absolutely. They get good Dreads (well one good and one that's simply better than the codex Contemptor), a Troop choice that can actually contribute to a fight from afar so that holding objectives isn't a hassle, and more importantly gain weapons access and vehicles to tackle larger targets. Theoretically you could run Custodes pure simply thanks to FW if it weren't for the poor as feth core rules.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Iron Hands are hurting the game, not those units.

Some people just keep getting it wrong.

Iron Hands are the biggest offender for sure. But lets not stick our heads in the sand and ignore the fact Space Marines as a whole right now are incredibly strong even without all the supplements. For instsnce the Thunderfire cannon and strat are in the base codex.

And now the Thunderfire is actually good. Shocker I know. Complain about Stratagems all you want, but units need to be viable without them at least. Thunderfire Cannons do that and thank goodness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Most people won't complain if you use your Krieg or Elysian troops as Infantry for something else though. Kinda hard to use a Relic Contemptor if they nerf it to the ground because, let's be honest, the codex Contemptor is fething awful as is and whoever let that entry slide should be ashamed of themselves.

Custodes are in a weird spot though because they don't just have more FW options than they do plastic ones, they're practically relying on FW to make them viable at all because they have so few plastic kits out.

Custodes will suffer the most, absolutely. They get good Dreads (well one good and one that's simply better than the codex Contemptor), a Troop choice that can actually contribute to a fight from afar so that holding objectives isn't a hassle, and more importantly gain weapons access and vehicles to tackle larger targets. Theoretically you could run Custodes pure simply thanks to FW if it weren't for the poor as feth core rules.

Um the thunderfire cannon was already amazing before the buffs. The ability to just halve a units movement is insane. Its made even more powerful by the fact that there is almost zero way to play around it. The gun just had to hit you not wound just hit. Hide outside of LOS? Doesn't matter can still hit you. Out range it? Good luck it has a 60in range. And then they went and added all the buffs. Most of the Marine Codex wasn't in even a remotely as bad of a place as the internet whining made it out to be. They were solidly upper middle tier. Also does no one else think that it might be a sign that your codex is too strong when all of 8th edition has been dominated by some form of soup allies. But all of the sudden your Codex is the only codex that can compete on its own? I'm ok with stuff being strong. Strong stuff is good for the game. Blatantly broken on the other hand is not good for the game.

Karol wrote:
I play GK

Give me a reason FW, fellow GK

The Salt Mine wrote:
At least you guys got good rules in PA though.

The hype was Thousand Sons were going to be amazing, and no word what so ever on Grey Knights, honestly i feel bad for my doppelgangers they deserved better.

Grey Knights don't have anything to complain about, and nothing to worry about.

Space Marines earned this moment in the sun but GW is going to curb stomp them soon enough, and they are rarely even handed about this type of


back on topic, i'd glady fork over some cash if FWs ruleset was brought in line with the GW products, so i'm cautiously optimistic

It's a two fold answer, yes they need re balancing, but GW is about as bad as a company can be at balancing anything so I feel like all this attempt will show is how terrible they are at such a venture.

I like to think of Forge World and GW headquarters as rival neighborhoods, and when one goes over to the other- they all grab baseball bats and knuckledusters and switchblades and start making veiled threats about coming into their neighborhoods.

Then, Duncan comes out dressed like Michael Jackson and they all dance like the "Beat It" music video.

All that aside, the idea of GW 'balancing' anything seems about as reliable as a remake of Airwolf starring Kobe Bryant.

Dudeface wrote:


We also got chaos marines 2.0, space marines 1.0 and the entirety of every book in 8th.

Which were both great.

Space Marines 1.0 had one army in the previous LVO shadow round, but fail to go through to the final 8. That's about average what any given book out of around 16 or so Codexes should do. Add shock assault and bolter drill that came after, and the CA 2019 point drops, and the Marine Codex 1.0 is spot on where Marines should be. Even just 1.0 with the Faith & Fury strats probably makes it a slightly too powerful army compared to the majority of the field.

Chaos 2.0 with Faith & Fury would (and is) some of the most broken stuff in the game outside of Marines. But Chaos 2.0, with perhaps book-locked spells like Eldar and perhaps 5 pt Cultists and 9-10 point Plaguebearers would hit the average power of the books we have (outside of new broken Marines and Eldar broken thanks to copy&paste marine rules).

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


We also got chaos marines 2.0, space marines 1.0 and the entirety of every book in 8th.

Which were both great.

Space Marines 1.0 had one army in the previous LVO shadow round, but fail to go through to the final 8. That's about average what any given book out of around 16 or so Codexes should do. Add shock assault and bolter drill that came after, and the CA 2019 point drops, and the Marine Codex 1.0 is spot on where Marines should be. Even just 1.0 with the Faith & Fury strats probably makes it a slightly too powerful army compared to the majority of the field.

Chaos 2.0 with Faith & Fury would (and is) some of the most broken stuff in the game outside of Marines. But Chaos 2.0, with perhaps book-locked spells like Eldar and perhaps 5 pt Cultists and 9-10 point Plaguebearers would hit the average power of the books we have (outside of new broken Marines and Eldar broken thanks to copy&paste marine rules).

Necrons more OP than Chaos, from my experience

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


We also got chaos marines 2.0, space marines 1.0 and the entirety of every book in 8th.

Which were both great.

Space Marines 1.0 had one army in the previous LVO shadow round, but fail to go through to the final 8. That's about average what any given book out of around 16 or so Codexes should do. Add shock assault and bolter drill that came after, and the CA 2019 point drops, and the Marine Codex 1.0 is spot on where Marines should be. Even just 1.0 with the Faith & Fury strats probably makes it a slightly too powerful army compared to the majority of the field.

Chaos 2.0 with Faith & Fury would (and is) some of the most broken stuff in the game outside of Marines. But Chaos 2.0, with perhaps book-locked spells like Eldar and perhaps 5 pt Cultists and 9-10 point Plaguebearers would hit the average power of the books we have (outside of new broken Marines and Eldar broken thanks to copy&paste marine rules).

Chaos relies, especially in the case of CSM on two gimmicks to even get units up to an acceptable value.
That imo makes not for a b balanced book, same with tau and their one decent build.

Iron Hands Leviathan wound-passing qualifies as a gimmick fairly easily too. It's a problem that goes beyond any one faction.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Iron Hands Leviathan wound-passing qualifies as a gimmick fairly easily too. It's a problem that goes beyond any one faction.

Absolutely.
However leviathans are not even required for IH, which goes back to the point allready made, not everyone has equal long pikes because gw once again pulled an 180 in ruledesign...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ those that think marines or csm will be most impacted, when there are whole fw armies out there.

Most people won't complain if you use your Krieg or Elysian troops as Infantry for something else though. Kinda hard to use a Relic Contemptor if they nerf it to the ground because, let's be honest, the codex Contemptor is fething awful as is and whoever let that entry slide should be ashamed of themselves.

Custodes are in a weird spot though because they don't just have more FW options than they do plastic ones, they're practically relying on FW to make them viable at all because they have so few plastic kits out.

Custodes will suffer the most, absolutely. They get good Dreads (well one good and one that's simply better than the codex Contemptor), a Troop choice that can actually contribute to a fight from afar so that holding objectives isn't a hassle, and more importantly gain weapons access and vehicles to tackle larger targets. Theoretically you could run Custodes pure simply thanks to FW if it weren't for the poor as feth core rules.

That is actually what I was trying to get at, more or less. Everything Custodes have in the base codex is designed to go forward into melee and their base shooting is really bad. That can work right up to the point where you want to play scenario with them, then you have a problem because all of their good units for holding objectives are FW.

...and they're probably still tad overpriced even after the CA point cuts. There are a few too many guns in this game that will casually wipe a T5 W3 2+ 4++ unit for Custodian Guard to cost 50+ points.

Shoulda been 50 points for shield version 45 for spear. Wardens can be 50pts with axe.

Allaurus gain +1 wound, deep strike, and a crappy gun so they should be 58ish
Aquillons should be 65ish with the fist and bolter 72 with the flamer.

Bikes should be 70.

Vexilla should be 65 base. 72 for termy armor.

sag guard should be 47-50 apiece

Venetari should be 55 apiece for pistol version.

Pallas should be 85 points because while its more durable than a landspeeder, it really doesn't do much dmg.

Caladius with accelerator should be 200 and with heavy adrathic should be 185.

The smaller dreads should all be priced just like a space marine venerable dread base, but have their gear prices adjusted and the larger one should cost like a Redemptor dread with +25 points for better BS/WS/Sv values.

The guard varients shouldn't exist as separate units, they should just be weapon options on the normal custodian guard squads.



Custodes also need to be able to Re-roll 1's in the charge phase and gain +1 FNP (so wardens have a 5+++).


Do this and we'll be caught up with the rest of the power creep.

I would settle for these major changes in Custodes:

Strat for re-roll charges 1 CP

Making Swords Pistol 3 12"
and makieaxes spears assault 4
making melta spears optional for regular guard
make all Land Raider variants possible for Venerable Status. I'd (love to see this one)
Make tajann S6 so he hits at S12. I'm sick of seeing T6s shake off hits by the single greatest living warrior in the imperium. (Actually this is now up for debate, because Sly/Rowboat)but I'm gibing it to the guy that is over a centurey old and was a watcher of the throne for 22 years.

I said that FW do need balancing, but not "OMG they're so OP". Just simply that many FW units are written as if it's still Index days, and many of them don't share numerous rules updates with later codices, etc.

While errata/FAQs occasionally tackle this stuff, a lot of the units are just out of touch with the current game. Many have ridiculous points costs for their performance (as in, they cost too much). With everything from normal GW books dropping points so often, many FW units barely get a glance or adjustment from GW, so many have been left behind.

Entire units like the traitor guard, etc. need to be set aside or updated properly - one of the two. Not left to flounder in a grey area.

I think GW and Forge World really, REALLY need to sit down and get on the same sheet of music, together. There's no reason that these rules for the same game should be written by different teams or at completely different times.

As it stands now, quite a few Forge World models are what I would describe as "overpriced shelf models". I'm not sure which ones are 'overpowered', but I'd certainly like to know- that'd be at least something from Forge World that almost justifies its absurd price point for being inferior materials and sculpts.

Now, I won't sit here and say I've got experience with all the Forge World models, because I've never even seen most of them in person. But, based on my own experience with Loyalist Marines and Chaos Marines:

Forge World models cost more points than other units that can do nearly the same thing or better, all while coming with a price tag that would let me buy two of those equal/better units and I don't need to buy another book to use it.

The only reasons I've ever had to use Forge World models in Warhammer 40k?

-they look cool

-I bought it for Horus Heresy but I rarely get to play, so I use it in 40k

For the money GW is asking for Forge World models, not to mention the frustration that comes with having to deal with poor quality control- some real balancing and incentive might be required if they want to actually sell those overpriced resin toys.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I think GW and Forge World really, REALLY need to sit down and get on the same sheet of music, together. There's no reason that these rules for the same game should be written by different teams or at completely different times.

As it stands now, quite a few Forge World models are what I would describe as "overpriced shelf models". I'm not sure which ones are 'overpowered', but I'd certainly like to know- that'd be at least something from Forge World that almost justifies its absurd price point for being inferior materials and sculpts.

Now, I won't sit here and say I've got experience with all the Forge World models, because I've never even seen most of them in person. But, based on my own experience with Loyalist Marines and Chaos Marines:

Forge World models cost more points than other units that can do nearly the same thing or better, all while coming with a price tag that would let me buy two of those equal/better units and I don't need to buy another book to use it.

The only reasons I've ever had to use Forge World models in Warhammer 40k?

-they look cool

-I bought it for Horus Heresy but I rarely get to play, so I use it in 40k

For the money GW is asking for Forge World models, not to mention the frustration that comes with having to deal with poor quality control- some real balancing and incentive might be required if they want to actually sell those overpriced resin toys.

Dude, the whole of 8th the GW team did write the rules for FW units

Not Online!!! wrote:
Dude, the whole of 8th the GW team did write the rules for FW units

...before, or after several rounds at Bugman's?

But then again, this is a thread about GW 'balancing' something... and I trust them with balance about as much as I trust a wet fart in khakis.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Dude, the whole of 8th the GW team did write the rules for FW units

...before, or after several rounds at Bugman's?

But then again, this is a thread about GW 'balancing' something... and I trust them with balance about as much as I trust a wet fart in khakis.

Due to their own words, they want to

The Warhammer 40,000 Studio – those industrious people behind rulebooks, codexes and expansions like the Psychic Awakening books – are hard at work on a new series of tomes that will cover the range of Warhammer 40,000 miniatures Forge World produce. These books will include updated datasheets and army rules that give these glorious models abilities and benefits that are comparable to the rest of the forces in the game.

which can mean :

A: slightly points updated and soon to be legends.


B: they actually work out propperly for once


C: we got mortal fodder at the level of IH.


My guess, either A or C. Not B.

I just question whether they understand their own game enough to make significant and worthwhile changes.

I mean, take something as simple as the Macharius. It has never been as powerful as just taking two Russes for the same points cost. Now you can get roughly 2.6 Russes (basic Russ) for the cost of a basic Macharius. And the advantage for paying nearly 3x the cost of a basic Russ is 2D6 shots rather than 1D6, so still a super swingy gun, and D6 damage rather than D3, so on average more, but still just as capable of causing 1 damage as it is 6. And it's a LOW slot.

Why would I ever bring one?

They have to address stuff like this.