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This actually makes more sense than the others, and that's not me being a pessimist...
Disclaimer:
Spoiler:
I get quite a few interesting rumors fed to me from an unnamed source that's rather close to GW's people, not some insider in the board meetings or creative process, not some big decision-maker or super-important creative force... but rather one of the people who knows the people that are aware of some of the things happening but aren't supposed to tell anyone. And if you'd rather be skeptical, say I made it up (or that my pal made it up, or his pal made it up), by all means- I could hardly blame you, no reason for you to believe me. I can't even point to any kind of track record and say "lookie here, where I was right, see!" because I can't remember which things I've 'predicted' but it hasn't been many- I sometimes forget, or hear about things a couple of years before they happen and forget about them until it's announced officially, and I don't usually mention them because things often do change.
Supposedly, the rumors and whispers in dark corners is that Forge World is limiting their products considerably once Horus Heresy wraps up. Now, I've also heard that Horus Heresy isn't going to be entirely "finished and gone", there's a possibility that it 'restarts' again with a new rules update or something and some of the 'missing' models coming out the second time around- but as I was told, more stuff is going to GW proper, and Forge World will be more focused on specialist games and very specific items like titans, etc.
With that being said, I wouldn't be shocked at all if quite a lot of the Forge World exclusives get one last rushed 'review' before they steadily start making their way onto the Legends lists until a newer, shinier, retooled and overpriced GW version comes along.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just question whether they understand their own game enough to make significant and worthwhile changes.
I mean, take something as simple as the Macharius. It has never been as powerful as just taking two Russes for the same points cost. Now you can get roughly 2.6 Russes (basic Russ) for the cost of a basic Macharius. And the advantage for paying nearly 3x the cost of a basic Russ is 2D6 shots rather than 1D6, so still a super swingy gun, and D6 damage rather than D3, so on average more, but still just as capable of causing 1 damage as it is 6. And it's a LOW slot.
Why would I ever bring one?
They have to address stuff like this.
Even funnier is the malcador. 2 leman russes price wise with the firepower of 1/2
This actually makes more sense than the others, and that's not me being a pessimist...
Disclaimer:
Spoiler:
I get quite a few interesting rumors fed to me from an unnamed source that's rather close to GW's people, not some insider in the board meetings or creative process, not some big decision-maker or super-important creative force... but rather one of the people who knows the people that are aware of some of the things happening but aren't supposed to tell anyone. And if you'd rather be skeptical, say I made it up (or that my pal made it up, or his pal made it up), by all means- I could hardly blame you, no reason for you to believe me. I can't even point to any kind of track record and say "lookie here, where I was right, see!" because I can't remember which things I've 'predicted' but it hasn't been many- I sometimes forget, or hear about things a couple of years before they happen and forget about them until it's announced officially, and I don't usually mention them because things often do change.
Supposedly, the rumors and whispers in dark corners is that Forge World is limiting their products considerably once Horus Heresy wraps up. Now, I've also heard that Horus Heresy isn't going to be entirely "finished and gone", there's a possibility that it 'restarts' again with a new rules update or something and some of the 'missing' models coming out the second time around- but as I was told, more stuff is going to GW proper, and Forge World will be more focused on specialist games and very specific items like titans, etc.
With that being said, I wouldn't be shocked at all if quite a lot of the Forge World exclusives get one last rushed 'review' before they steadily start making their way onto the Legends lists until a newer, shinier, retooled and overpriced GW version comes along.
you forgot to add , not in the spirit of the identity of the faction it replaces.
(R&H vs the new traitor guard f.e, nothing aginst traitor gurad but they were only a "fracture" of what R&H was.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/02 11:48:28
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
you forgot to add , not in the spirit of the identity of the faction it replaces.
(R&H vs the new traitor guard f.e, nothing aginst traitor gurad but they were only a "fracture" of what R&H was.)
Yeah, there's always that.
"Sorry we removed support for Tau and quit making them entirely, but the Kroot are still around in Kill-Team and this exlcusive Kroot Shaper model is standing on a drone! TAU ARE BACK!"
Sorry, but with GW's shoddy rules writing, they can barely balance what is in the main codexes by themselves, let alone adding all the FW units. Yes, they are cool, but there is always that one unit that slips through the cracks and outperforms anything in the codex to a ridiculous degree.
The Levi dread is the best example recently. Yeah, it's a good dread, but when coupled with the IH stats, it becomes insane. You can argue that it is an Iron Hands problem, but is it really? Would people really lose their crap if the same rules were applied to an 8 wound venerable Dreadnought from the codex? I doubt it. GW balance within the codex, they don't consider FW. Competitive events should take this into consideration and remove FW to prevent these crazy outliers. Iron Hands would still have been good, no question, but not having Levi Dreads to use the crazy strats or Chaplain Dreads, the lists would have been more manageable.
The issue is that they don't consider FW. It's not that the FW stuff needs to go away. It needs to be brought into the fold of the normal game and considered like everything else.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/02/02 17:17:54
Subject: Re:GW plans to rebalance all of FW's rules
Matched play legal rules that Tournament/Event organisers can opt out of, if they want to. Literally the definition of Legends/FW.
Forgeworld is about as optional as blood angels are.
Sure.
Everything is optional in 40K. Forgeworld. Blood Angels. Missions. Points.
Not sure why that's news to anyone.
Plenty of events don't use Forgeworld. Perhaps some don't use Blood Angels. Others might throw the Legends stuff in still, as it's still fully matched-play legal after all. Go do what works for you.
Hell, even stuff like terrain, detachments, command points, stratagems, etc.. is all grouped under the optional!!! "advanced rules" section of 40k and explicitly not recommended for some gamers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/02 17:39:41
2020/02/02 17:45:02
Subject: Re:GW plans to rebalance all of FW's rules
I trust that GW will consider a few factors. First, many FW models are not really intended for 40K Matched Play due to their sheer size etc. I doubt that anybody intended for Warhounds etc to be on a Matched Play table. Second, many of the smaller ones (Dreads) were designed for 30K, which is a different game. Third, some of the smaller ones are simply better than what is available in the mainstream Codexes/stores. Finally, I suspect that the lion share of "FW" models out there are not actually produced by FW. If they were ignorant of that before I think that is is impossible now.
I think they have three options:
COA 1 - State up front that FW models are "not intended for Matched Play." I would feel bad for some DKoK players, but that's about it.
COA 2 - Nerf the "smaller" FW models. The Dreadnought range in particular absolutely needs to reworked. Cast a few of them into Legends (Chaplain Dreads etc)
COA 3 (Variant of COA 2) - Have a main FW Index with "Not Intended for Matched Play" and bring some of the models over into the mainline GW line. Produce a plastic Leviathan with reworked rules. It becomes more accessible, they get a profit and future Codex writers ensure that they incorporate it and Deredos's etc into their design.
All of these have drawbacks, but the status quo is worse. The simplest is COA 1. Short term tears, to be sure, but good for the health of the game. I hope that they do COA 3.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
This actually makes more sense than the others, and that's not me being a pessimist...
Disclaimer:
Spoiler:
I get quite a few interesting rumors fed to me from an unnamed source that's rather close to GW's people, not some insider in the board meetings or creative process, not some big decision-maker or super-important creative force... but rather one of the people who knows the people that are aware of some of the things happening but aren't supposed to tell anyone. And if you'd rather be skeptical, say I made it up (or that my pal made it up, or his pal made it up), by all means- I could hardly blame you, no reason for you to believe me. I can't even point to any kind of track record and say "lookie here, where I was right, see!" because I can't remember which things I've 'predicted' but it hasn't been many- I sometimes forget, or hear about things a couple of years before they happen and forget about them until it's announced officially, and I don't usually mention them because things often do change.
Supposedly, the rumors and whispers in dark corners is that Forge World is limiting their products considerably once Horus Heresy wraps up. Now, I've also heard that Horus Heresy isn't going to be entirely "finished and gone", there's a possibility that it 'restarts' again with a new rules update or something and some of the 'missing' models coming out the second time around- but as I was told, more stuff is going to GW proper, and Forge World will be more focused on specialist games and very specific items like titans, etc.
With that being said, I wouldn't be shocked at all if quite a lot of the Forge World exclusives get one last rushed 'review' before they steadily start making their way onto the Legends lists until a newer, shinier, retooled and overpriced GW version comes along.
GW have said almost exactly the opposite, that “everyone will be playing Heresy” rather than it dying.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2020/02/02 18:21:00
Subject: Re:GW plans to rebalance all of FW's rules
Matched play legal rules that Tournament/Event organisers can opt out of, if they want to. Literally the definition of Legends/FW.
Forgeworld is about as optional as blood angels are.
Sure.
Everything is optional in 40K. Forgeworld. Blood Angels. Missions. Points.
Not sure why that's news to anyone.
Plenty of events don't use Forgeworld. Perhaps some don't use Blood Angels. Others might throw the Legends stuff in still, as it's still fully matched-play legal after all. Go do what works for you.
Hell, even stuff like terrain, detachments, command points, stratagems, etc.. is all grouped under the optional!!! "advanced rules" section of 40k and explicitly not recommended for some gamers.
Because you stated legends and forgeworld have the same validity which is wrong. GW themselves advise not allowing legends for tournaments, forgeworld is as valid as any currently supported core product.
Forgeworld products are not legends, and most tournaments allow them. FW is OP is an outdated mindset, it's not Forgeworlds problem anymore, look at the TF cannon FFS.
MiguelFelstone wrote: Forgeworld products are not legends, and most tournaments allow them. FW is OP is an outdated mindset, it's not Forgeworlds problem anymore, look at the TF cannon FFS.
You can't look at one regular unit as hypothesis as to why FW is OK, it's not. They are either underpointed or vastly overpointed, and often interact with Codex strategems etc with unintended consequences (see IH Leviathan as basically unkillable)
2020/02/02 18:33:56
Subject: Re:GW plans to rebalance all of FW's rules
Sorry, but with GW's shoddy rules writing, they can barely balance what is in the main codexes by themselves, let alone adding all the FW units. Yes, they are cool, but there is always that one unit that slips through the cracks and outperforms anything in the codex to a ridiculous degree.
The Levi dread is the best example recently. Yeah, it's a good dread, but when coupled with the IH stats, it becomes insane. You can argue that it is an Iron Hands problem, but is it really? Would people really lose their crap if the same rules were applied to an 8 wound venerable Dreadnought from the codex? I doubt it. GW balance within the codex, they don't consider FW. Competitive events should take this into consideration and remove FW to prevent these crazy outliers. Iron Hands would still have been good, no question, but not having Levi Dreads to use the crazy strats or Chaplain Dreads, the lists would have been more manageable.
Iron Hands ARE the problem, seeing that not all the topping Iron Hands use the Levi. In fact, the ones with none or one vastly outnumber the ones using two or three so far. Also nobody cares about Ven Dreads because you can just do all that stuff to the Primaris Dread for example.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/02/02 18:34:14
Subject: Re:GW plans to rebalance all of FW's rules
Because you stated legends and forgeworld have the same validity which is wrong. GW themselves advise not allowing legends for tournaments, forgeworld is as valid as any currently supported core product.
Both are fully legal for, quote "open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games".
Everything else is optional. GW doesn't recommend a lot of things for tournaments. They don't recommend chess clocks for example, but do recommend eternal war missions.
But nothing in the actual matched play rules forces TOs to use these rules. Nothing in the actual matched play rules prevents TOs from allowing these rules either.
MiguelFelstone wrote: Forgeworld products are not legends, and most tournaments allow them. FW is OP is an outdated mindset, it's not Forgeworlds problem anymore, look at the TF cannon FFS.
You can't look at one regular unit as hypothesis as to why FW is OK, it's not. They are either underpointed or vastly overpointed, and often interact with Codex strategems etc with unintended consequences (see IH Leviathan as basically unkillable)
You just used the Leviathan as an example, so i'll bite: What's the issue with this unit? Is it FW or GW? Would the Leviathan even be a factor without the GWSM codices? Here's a clue - IRON HANDS
The most powerful unit's in the game are GW, FW doesn't even break into the top 10, and the only reason any of them are in the top 20 is because of GW's rules, not FW.
TBH I would be okay with a ban for FW with the exception of custodes and other 100% forgeworld armies.
For most armies, Forgeworld adds a couple of redundant stuff that in most cases is just some GW model but +++ (Like leviathans, deredeos, etc...) . In the case of Krieg and others, they are a full FW army so they are needed.
And in the case of adeptus custodes , banning forgeworld is literally killing the faction. They can't work without Forgeworld, not on a power level but on a tactical level. They are an incomplete army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/02 21:56:06
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/02/02 22:01:09
Subject: Re:GW plans to rebalance all of FW's rules
Because you stated legends and forgeworld have the same validity which is wrong. GW themselves advise not allowing legends for tournaments, forgeworld is as valid as any currently supported core product.
Both are fully legal for, quote "open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games".
Everything else is optional. GW doesn't recommend a lot of things for tournaments. They don't recommend chess clocks for example, but do recommend eternal war missions.
But nothing in the actual matched play rules forces TOs to use these rules. Nothing in the actual matched play rules prevents TOs from allowing these rules either.
You are quite right that a TO can alter the rules for their tourney as can see fit. I was trying to highlight GW actively tell you not to expect legends in tournaments, to the point of advising against allowing them. It's the only subset of rules they do this with iirc.
Galas wrote: TBH I would be okay with a ban for FW with the exception of custodes and other 100% forgeworld armies.
For most armies, Forgeworld adds a couple of redundant stuff that in most cases is just some GW model but +++ (Like leviathans, deredeos, etc...) . In the case of Krieg and others, they are a full FW army so they are needed.
And in the case of adeptus custodes , banning forgeworld is literally killing the faction. They can't work without Forgeworld, not on a power level but on a tactical level. They are an incomplete army.
Yet the leviathan proved to not be an issue in 8th until gw gaked the bed with ih.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Galas wrote: TBH I would be okay with a ban for FW with the exception of custodes and other 100% forgeworld armies.
I honestly can't understand the FW hysteria, did you guys watch the LVO? Why aren't people advocating banning IH/RG, i think Siegler made it pretty clear FW isn't the problem.
Galas wrote: TBH I would be okay with a ban for FW with the exception of custodes and other 100% forgeworld armies.
For most armies, Forgeworld adds a couple of redundant stuff that in most cases is just some GW model but +++ (Like leviathans, deredeos, etc...) . In the case of Krieg and others, they are a full FW army so they are needed.
And in the case of adeptus custodes , banning forgeworld is literally killing the faction. They can't work without Forgeworld, not on a power level but on a tactical level. They are an incomplete army.
Like the Hellforged Superheavies-just like regular tanks, only many times more expensive for minimal gain!
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Galas wrote: TBH I would be okay with a ban for FW with the exception of custodes and other 100% forgeworld armies.
For most armies, Forgeworld adds a couple of redundant stuff that in most cases is just some GW model but +++ (Like leviathans, deredeos, etc...) . In the case of Krieg and others, they are a full FW army so they are needed.
And in the case of adeptus custodes , banning forgeworld is literally killing the faction. They can't work without Forgeworld, not on a power level but on a tactical level. They are an incomplete army.
Like the Hellforged Superheavies-just like regular tanks, only many times more expensive for minimal gain!
Considering hellforged can't even be repaired raw ...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Galas wrote: TBH I would be okay with a ban for FW with the exception of custodes and other 100% forgeworld armies.
For most armies, Forgeworld adds a couple of redundant stuff that in most cases is just some GW model but +++ (Like leviathans, deredeos, etc...) . In the case of Krieg and others, they are a full FW army so they are needed.
And in the case of adeptus custodes , banning forgeworld is literally killing the faction. They can't work without Forgeworld, not on a power level but on a tactical level. They are an incomplete army.
Basic Dreads not being good outside Ven Dread Gun Platforms is not the fault of FW producing interesting Dreads to use. I'd rather never use a Contemptor again than use the garbage one in the codex.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Galas wrote: TBH I would be okay with a ban for FW with the exception of custodes and other 100% forgeworld armies.
I don't understand why anyone would want to ban FW.
I mean. I'm opposed to banning FW but you need to understand my context. Spain is nearly a full anti-FW country. Things are opening up in recent years, but all of this leviathan Iron Hand stuff is really butchering all the good will gained.
In my store for example, after asking for nearly a year, they allowed FW to be used. I was extasic to use my Achillus Dreadnought and my Saggitarum guard. Three tournaments after that, they banned FW again after 3-4 new space marine players came out of the wild (They never played or approached the store before) with their Leviathans dread and Firerraptors and Chaplain Dreadnoughts.
And I know FW has a TON of crappy stuff, and GW has a ton of OP stuff. But theres a very big stigma with FW and as much as on internet we insist it doesn't exist, it really does!
So I'm really hoping GW gives legitimacy to FW rules with those new indexes, improves balance, and puts to rest for one and for all this stupid debate.
I just want to use my Achillus Dreadnought, I literally started custodes as an army for that model.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: TBH I would be okay with a ban for FW with the exception of custodes and other 100% forgeworld armies.
I don't understand why anyone would want to ban FW.
I mean. I'm opposed to banning FW but you need to understand my context. Spain is nearly a full anti-FW country. Things are opening up in recent years, but all of this leviathan Iron Hand stuff is really butchering all the good will gained.
In my store for example, after asking for nearly a year, they allowed FW to be used. I was extasic to use my Achillus Dreadnought and my Saggitarum guard. Three tournaments after that, they banned FW again after 3-4 new space marine players came out of the wild (They never played or approached the store before) with their Leviathans dread and Firerraptors and Chaplain Dreadnoughts.
And I know FW has a TON of crappy stuff, and GW has a ton of OP stuff. But theres a very big stigma with FW and as much as on internet we insist it doesn't exist, it really does!
So I'm really hoping GW gives legitimacy to FW rules with those new indexes, improves balance, and puts to rest for one and for all this stupid debate.
I just want to use my Achillus Dreadnought, I literally started custodes as an army for that model.
Yeah and then they just switch to Repulsors. Official GW though so it's okay! No problems here!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
