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H.B.M.C. wrote:So fix the issues. Don't just ban it. That's absurd.
Sorry, I was unclear. I think it deserves a mild points increase and re-work of its keywords to mitigate the IH ridiculousness. Nothing should ever be banned.
I get that by the standards of competitive gameplay it doesn't overperform compared to the other underpriced units available to each faction, but in the context of the game as a whole it is pretty nasty- I wish my Guard could pay 300ish points for around 17 S7, AP-2, D2 hits per turn protected by a 2+/4++. It blows both the Stormlord and Macharius Vulcan out of the water, being cheaper, harder to kill, more mobile, and averaging more hits at a higher S.
H.B.M.C. wrote:So fix the issues. Don't just ban it. That's absurd.
Sorry, I was unclear. I think it deserves a mild points increase and re-work of its keywords to mitigate the IH ridiculousness. Nothing should ever be banned.
I get that by the standards of competitive gameplay it doesn't overperform compared to the other underpriced units available to each faction, but in the context of the game as a whole it is pretty nasty- I wish my Guard could pay 300ish points for around 17 S7, AP-2, D2 hits per turn protected by a 2+/4++. It blows both the Stormlord and Macharius Vulcan out of the water, being cheaper, harder to kill, more mobile, and averaging more hits at a higher S.
Then just up the cost of the Storm cannon array? I do agree that the IH interactions need some serious limiting (maybe it only works on non-Relic units?).
At 300 points, a snippy claw/melta lance Levi isn't game-breaking. Especially since it almost costs as much as a Knight, and has almost half the wounds.
Where was all this talk about leviathans being op last year before space marines came out? I mean chaos have better leviathans than loyalists base without buffs but I have not seen any competative chaos lists winning evens with them. Its not the leviathan. They are strong yes oplol hardly. Its the stupid gak space marines can do with their dreds now that make them broken.
That would be really stupid, everyone who bought them would lose money, because they would no longer be able to use them.
People bought 1-2 of them and they cost almost 50$ each.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
vict0988 wrote: 7th had Skatach Wraithknights. Generally, FW was a non-factor because of bad integration with the Detachment system which dominated 7th. It'd be like if FW not only didn't benefit from all the IH buffs, but cancelled them in any Detachment they were in.
8.16 had Big Bird and Malefic Lords.
8.17 had CSM and SM Fire Raptor.
8.18 had Custodes vehicles and butcher cannon Dreads.
8.19 has Leviathan.
Those are the truly gross units, then we have units like the Tyranid -1 to hit HQ, AM Vulture Gunships and the Necron Gauss Pylon that while not directly gross were some of the very best units for their respective factions. I think it's to some degree fair to be outraged when FW is the most competitive option for a faction, generally, FW is pretty weak though. In 6th the idea that FW was OP was still widespread enough that I think it was banned at many tournaments.
Skatach Wraithknights were no more an offender than the regular ones. Imagine saying a unit is broken for being based on a broken unit to begin with! Also Butcher Cannons and the Custodes vehicles were not broken to begin with and merely things holding up armies that were poor to begin with. THEN you're making claim the Leviathan is broken when nothing happened until Iron Hands appeared.
So no, that outrage is illogical and should be pointed out as such.
Skatach WK was arguably the single best unit in 7th, making an even more op version of an op unit is silly. Leviathan is broken now, I don't care why. I do not believe I am contributing to any outrage, if anything my comment dispels it. The list of Citadel cheese would be much longer.
Except the Leviathan isn't OP. It's Iron Hands that are OP. Hell, Iron Hands aren't even always taking the Leviathan and Chap Dreads!
Is it me or can your entire response to pretty much any criticism of FW units be summed up as 'no, you're wrong and I'm right'?
There are tons of examples of janky FW units. Not necessarily OP, just odd. Often using mechanics no other unit in the game uses or having really outdated datasheets that make them work differently to other, very similar units.
It is this jankiness that causes the OP interactions to occur, quite often.
The Levi Dread is absolutely OP, it is too points efficient. IH simply magnify that twofold and nullify any potential weaknesses.
Finally - this isn't 'outrage'. I'm not sure what led you to believe such. It just looks really poor on GW to have these weird, separate units that act differently to their plastic counterparts in a very unintuitive way.
Complaining about rules jankyness from an ork, a codex more often then not was sumarisable with the word itself ruleswise is an issue to you?
Irony thine name is AAE.
What? Can you elaborate because I genuinely think you misunderstand what "janky" means. There are examples within the Ork range - all our bikers got "Speed Freeks" keyword while the FW bikers did not, for a very, very long time. All our units got "Dakka, Dakka, Dakka" except (you guessed it!) FW units for a very, very long time. It's the inconsistencies that are irritating and they exist throughout FW for all factions.
But please - do tell me, with examples, of all those janky rules Orks have enjoyed in this edition and others. Real interested to hear about that.
Karol wrote: That would be really stupid, everyone who bought them would lose money, because they would no longer be able to use them.
People bought 1-2 of them and they cost almost 50$ each.
I mean, gak happens. if you buy into a strong model like this, you could expect some pts change down the line.
And levi's are closer to 120$ with arms (on forgeworld's website)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 17:59:02
People buy them cheaper from local and russian sellers. Plus if someone paid 120$ for it, it only means it is worse.
the idea that people should live in fear of having good rules seems stupid to me.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: People buy them cheaper from local and russian sellers. Plus if someone paid 120$ for it, it only means it is worse.
the idea that people should live in fear of having good rules seems stupid to me.
Correction - people buy fakes/copies of a Forge World sculpt from your local or Russian sellers.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
vict0988 wrote: 7th had Skatach Wraithknights. Generally, FW was a non-factor because of bad integration with the Detachment system which dominated 7th. It'd be like if FW not only didn't benefit from all the IH buffs, but cancelled them in any Detachment they were in.
8.16 had Big Bird and Malefic Lords.
8.17 had CSM and SM Fire Raptor.
8.18 had Custodes vehicles and butcher cannon Dreads.
8.19 has Leviathan.
Those are the truly gross units, then we have units like the Tyranid -1 to hit HQ, AM Vulture Gunships and the Necron Gauss Pylon that while not directly gross were some of the very best units for their respective factions. I think it's to some degree fair to be outraged when FW is the most competitive option for a faction, generally, FW is pretty weak though. In 6th the idea that FW was OP was still widespread enough that I think it was banned at many tournaments.
Skatach Wraithknights were no more an offender than the regular ones. Imagine saying a unit is broken for being based on a broken unit to begin with! Also Butcher Cannons and the Custodes vehicles were not broken to begin with and merely things holding up armies that were poor to begin with. THEN you're making claim the Leviathan is broken when nothing happened until Iron Hands appeared.
So no, that outrage is illogical and should be pointed out as such.
Skatach WK was arguably the single best unit in 7th, making an even more op version of an op unit is silly. Leviathan is broken now, I don't care why. I do not believe I am contributing to any outrage, if anything my comment dispels it. The list of Citadel cheese would be much longer.
Except the Leviathan isn't OP. It's Iron Hands that are OP. Hell, Iron Hands aren't even always taking the Leviathan and Chap Dreads!
Is it me or can your entire response to pretty much any criticism of FW units be summed up as 'no, you're wrong and I'm right'?
There are tons of examples of janky FW units. Not necessarily OP, just odd. Often using mechanics no other unit in the game uses or having really outdated datasheets that make them work differently to other, very similar units.
It is this jankiness that causes the OP interactions to occur, quite often.
The Levi Dread is absolutely OP, it is too points efficient. IH simply magnify that twofold and nullify any potential weaknesses.
Finally - this isn't 'outrage'. I'm not sure what led you to believe such. It just looks really poor on GW to have these weird, separate units that act differently to their plastic counterparts in a very unintuitive way.
Probably because you ARE wrong. If the Leviathan were OP in any fashion outside Iron Hands, we'd have all sorts of Space Marine lists with them topping. However we do not. We also have most of the Iron Hands lists making headway without them as well. Also you're going to need to define what you consider janky, because you're just throwing terms around doesn't help your case.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
vict0988 wrote: 7th had Skatach Wraithknights. Generally, FW was a non-factor because of bad integration with the Detachment system which dominated 7th. It'd be like if FW not only didn't benefit from all the IH buffs, but cancelled them in any Detachment they were in.
8.16 had Big Bird and Malefic Lords.
8.17 had CSM and SM Fire Raptor.
8.18 had Custodes vehicles and butcher cannon Dreads.
8.19 has Leviathan.
Those are the truly gross units, then we have units like the Tyranid -1 to hit HQ, AM Vulture Gunships and the Necron Gauss Pylon that while not directly gross were some of the very best units for their respective factions. I think it's to some degree fair to be outraged when FW is the most competitive option for a faction, generally, FW is pretty weak though. In 6th the idea that FW was OP was still widespread enough that I think it was banned at many tournaments.
Skatach Wraithknights were no more an offender than the regular ones. Imagine saying a unit is broken for being based on a broken unit to begin with! Also Butcher Cannons and the Custodes vehicles were not broken to begin with and merely things holding up armies that were poor to begin with. THEN you're making claim the Leviathan is broken when nothing happened until Iron Hands appeared.
So no, that outrage is illogical and should be pointed out as such.
Skatach WK was arguably the single best unit in 7th, making an even more op version of an op unit is silly. Leviathan is broken now, I don't care why. I do not believe I am contributing to any outrage, if anything my comment dispels it. The list of Citadel cheese would be much longer.
Except the Leviathan isn't OP. It's Iron Hands that are OP. Hell, Iron Hands aren't even always taking the Leviathan and Chap Dreads!
Is it me or can your entire response to pretty much any criticism of FW units be summed up as 'no, you're wrong and I'm right'?
There are tons of examples of janky FW units. Not necessarily OP, just odd. Often using mechanics no other unit in the game uses or having really outdated datasheets that make them work differently to other, very similar units.
It is this jankiness that causes the OP interactions to occur, quite often.
The Levi Dread is absolutely OP, it is too points efficient. IH simply magnify that twofold and nullify any potential weaknesses.
Finally - this isn't 'outrage'. I'm not sure what led you to believe such. It just looks really poor on GW to have these weird, separate units that act differently to their plastic counterparts in a very unintuitive way.
Complaining about rules jankyness from an ork, a codex more often then not was sumarisable with the word itself ruleswise is an issue to you?
Irony thine name is AAE.
What? Can you elaborate because I genuinely think you misunderstand what "janky" means. There are examples within the Ork range - all our bikers got "Speed Freeks" keyword while the FW bikers did not, for a very, very long time. All our units got "Dakka, Dakka, Dakka" except (you guessed it!) FW units for a very, very long time. It's the inconsistencies that are irritating and they exist throughout FW for all factions.
But please - do tell me, with examples, of all those janky rules Orks have enjoyed in this edition and others. Real interested to hear about that.
Was i talking about this edition?
No? Good did you get that, but a little reminder, Biker nobs? Shokk attackgun table? Etc. Were all aswell "janky" in the past.
But go ahead, let"s ban " janky " rulesets because feth empathy or common sense.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
vict0988 wrote: 7th had Skatach Wraithknights. Generally, FW was a non-factor because of bad integration with the Detachment system which dominated 7th. It'd be like if FW not only didn't benefit from all the IH buffs, but cancelled them in any Detachment they were in.
8.16 had Big Bird and Malefic Lords.
8.17 had CSM and SM Fire Raptor.
8.18 had Custodes vehicles and butcher cannon Dreads.
8.19 has Leviathan.
Those are the truly gross units, then we have units like the Tyranid -1 to hit HQ, AM Vulture Gunships and the Necron Gauss Pylon that while not directly gross were some of the very best units for their respective factions. I think it's to some degree fair to be outraged when FW is the most competitive option for a faction, generally, FW is pretty weak though. In 6th the idea that FW was OP was still widespread enough that I think it was banned at many tournaments.
Skatach Wraithknights were no more an offender than the regular ones. Imagine saying a unit is broken for being based on a broken unit to begin with! Also Butcher Cannons and the Custodes vehicles were not broken to begin with and merely things holding up armies that were poor to begin with. THEN you're making claim the Leviathan is broken when nothing happened until Iron Hands appeared.
So no, that outrage is illogical and should be pointed out as such.
Skatach WK was arguably the single best unit in 7th, making an even more op version of an op unit is silly. Leviathan is broken now, I don't care why. I do not believe I am contributing to any outrage, if anything my comment dispels it. The list of Citadel cheese would be much longer.
Except the Leviathan isn't OP. It's Iron Hands that are OP. Hell, Iron Hands aren't even always taking the Leviathan and Chap Dreads!
Is it me or can your entire response to pretty much any criticism of FW units be summed up as 'no, you're wrong and I'm right'?
There are tons of examples of janky FW units. Not necessarily OP, just odd. Often using mechanics no other unit in the game uses or having really outdated datasheets that make them work differently to other, very similar units.
It is this jankiness that causes the OP interactions to occur, quite often.
The Levi Dread is absolutely OP, it is too points efficient. IH simply magnify that twofold and nullify any potential weaknesses.
Finally - this isn't 'outrage'. I'm not sure what led you to believe such. It just looks really poor on GW to have these weird, separate units that act differently to their plastic counterparts in a very unintuitive way.
Complaining about rules jankyness from an ork, a codex more often then not was sumarisable with the word itself ruleswise is an issue to you?
Irony thine name is AAE.
What? Can you elaborate because I genuinely think you misunderstand what "janky" means. There are examples within the Ork range - all our bikers got "Speed Freeks" keyword while the FW bikers did not, for a very, very long time. All our units got "Dakka, Dakka, Dakka" except (you guessed it!) FW units for a very, very long time. It's the inconsistencies that are irritating and they exist throughout FW for all factions.
But please - do tell me, with examples, of all those janky rules Orks have enjoyed in this edition and others. Real interested to hear about that.
Was i talking about this edition?
No? Good did you get that, but a little reminder, Biker nobs? Shokk attackgun table? Etc. Were all aswell "janky" in the past.
But go ahead, let"s ban " janky " rulesets because feth empathy or common sense.
There was nothing janky about Nob Bikers or the SAG table lol? Care to explain exactly what you mean?
I have said nothing about banning anything. Stop projecting your weird issues with someone else onto me.
My suggestion would be to fix the offending units by bringing their rules in line with other, similar units and pointing them appropriately, if you're asking.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably because you ARE wrong. If the Leviathan were OP in any fashion outside Iron Hands, we'd have all sorts of Space Marine lists with them topping. However we do not. We also have most of the Iron Hands lists making headway without them as well. Also you're going to need to define what you consider janky, because you're just throwing terms around doesn't help your case.
Rubbish. IH simply provide the most effective way to play the Levi Dread so (surprise surprise) they're most often taken as IH in competitive lists. Remove IH and they don't suddenly become awful. They've always been a very, very points efficient unit. The success of IH without Levi Dreads does not in any way disprove that Levi Dreads are OP.
Janky generally means "unintuitive" but feel free not to comment if you don't understand the wording.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 23:16:46
An Actual Englishman wrote: It seems to me that whenever there's a hyper points efficient unit 9 times out of 10 it's from FW. I guess GW want to shift some of that expensive resin, huh. FW units also contain some of the most sloppy rules writing I've ever seen that is, frankly, embarrassing.
I don't really see why there should be a separate FW rule book for units. They should be included in codexes for clarity and balance. Although, that said, they're not even consistent with this - my Warboss on Warbike is a codex entry despite existing only as a FW miniature, as are my Nobs on Bikes.
FW has always been the place to find janky rules in the hope of stumbling across some OP combo - I really hope GW kill this dead.
Rest my case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 23:27:07
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It seems to me that whenever there's a hyper points efficient unit 9 times out of 10 it's from FW. I guess GW want to shift some of that expensive resin, huh. FW units also contain some of the most sloppy rules writing I've ever seen that is, frankly, embarrassing.
I don't really see why there should be a separate FW rule book for units. They should be included in codexes for clarity and balance. Although, that said, they're not even consistent with this - my Warboss on Warbike is a codex entry despite existing only as a FW miniature, as are my Nobs on Bikes.
FW has always been the place to find janky rules in the hope of stumbling across some OP combo - I really hope GW kill this dead.
Rest my case.
You might want to pick that case up again there bud, because nowhere in that quotation underlined or otherwise do I see anything about banning units?
For the second time - stop projecting your weird issues onto me.
Ishagu wrote: The Leviathan is not overpowered or under-costed by datasheet alone.
If it lost the Dreadnought keyword all issues are fixed. Simple replace it with "Heavy Dreadnought"
Now it can't halve it's wounds, be made into a character, etc
Umm that is exactly what I am suggesting. If you remove said keyword, you wont see it in competitive. Problem solved.
People who enjoy the model will continue to be able to use it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: I can't wait for FW units to get rules improvements. Too many have languished behind.
I think you are dreaming if you think GW will make FW rules improve in general. They wont be doing the same play testing as they do with the GW line of models. I would be happy to be proven wrong though.
Forgeworld is an OFFICIAL GW product, and one that is most commonly purchased by the most dedicated hobbyists, collectors and players.
And from their range majority of it is being purchased by people who as you say dedicated hobbyists. Most don't even care for the rules at the competitive level. I have an Imperial Navy Thunderbolt fighter that has never seen tabletop play. Did i buy it for its awesome rules? Nope. I am still ogling a Marauder Destroyer but have no plans to buy build and paint it for a competitive game.
Competitive players just pick edge cases and most daresay are not even purchasing said FW models. They are converting GW plastics (a good thing) or buying recasts.
Your entire viewpoint is complete rubbish, as I've just illustrated, and I suspect your budgetary limitations and jealousy might be the reason for it.
You haven't illustrated anything.
Your suspicions are blatantly wrong.
I have 8000pts of guard with a few sprinklings of genuine FW products (Thunderbolt/Vulture/Armageddon Basilisks/FW Hydras). I also have 3 baneblades which I would prefer to be competitive but are sadly not.
I also have a Deredeo Dreadnought which I bought for competitive purposes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: That would be really stupid, everyone who bought them would lose money, because they would no longer be able to use them.
People bought 1-2 of them and they cost almost 50$ each.
Of course you can use them, they are just not going to be overpowered.
People buying models to chase competitive meta should know this already.
Look at the Castellan as an example. So many showing up in 2018/early 2019. Virtually none now. Its still an awesome model and can win you games but is not a competitive choice.
The Salt Mine wrote: Where was all this talk about leviathans being op last year before space marines came out? I mean chaos have better leviathans than loyalists base without buffs but I have not seen any competative chaos lists winning evens with them. Its not the leviathan. They are strong yes oplol hardly. Its the stupid gak space marines can do with their dreds now that make them broken.
The chaos leviathan has an inferior invul, cannot regain lost wounds except through the machine malifica rule, and operates under a far inferior codex. How exactly is it better?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: The Leviathan is not overpowered or under-costed by datasheet alone.
If it lost the Dreadnought keyword all issues are fixed. Simple replace it with "Heavy Dreadnought"
Now it can't halve it's wounds, be made into a character, etc
Dear god I actually agree with you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 02:18:59
vict0988 wrote: 7th had Skatach Wraithknights. Generally, FW was a non-factor because of bad integration with the Detachment system which dominated 7th. It'd be like if FW not only didn't benefit from all the IH buffs, but cancelled them in any Detachment they were in.
8.16 had Big Bird and Malefic Lords.
8.17 had CSM and SM Fire Raptor.
8.18 had Custodes vehicles and butcher cannon Dreads.
8.19 has Leviathan.
Those are the truly gross units, then we have units like the Tyranid -1 to hit HQ, AM Vulture Gunships and the Necron Gauss Pylon that while not directly gross were some of the very best units for their respective factions. I think it's to some degree fair to be outraged when FW is the most competitive option for a faction, generally, FW is pretty weak though. In 6th the idea that FW was OP was still widespread enough that I think it was banned at many tournaments.
Skatach Wraithknights were no more an offender than the regular ones. Imagine saying a unit is broken for being based on a broken unit to begin with! Also Butcher Cannons and the Custodes vehicles were not broken to begin with and merely things holding up armies that were poor to begin with. THEN you're making claim the Leviathan is broken when nothing happened until Iron Hands appeared.
So no, that outrage is illogical and should be pointed out as such.
Skatach WK was arguably the single best unit in 7th, making an even more op version of an op unit is silly. Leviathan is broken now, I don't care why. I do not believe I am contributing to any outrage, if anything my comment dispels it. The list of Citadel cheese would be much longer.
Except the Leviathan isn't OP. It's Iron Hands that are OP. Hell, Iron Hands aren't even always taking the Leviathan and Chap Dreads!
Is it me or can your entire response to pretty much any criticism of FW units be summed up as 'no, you're wrong and I'm right'?
There are tons of examples of janky FW units. Not necessarily OP, just odd. Often using mechanics no other unit in the game uses or having really outdated datasheets that make them work differently to other, very similar units.
It is this jankiness that causes the OP interactions to occur, quite often.
The Levi Dread is absolutely OP, it is too points efficient. IH simply magnify that twofold and nullify any potential weaknesses.
Finally - this isn't 'outrage'. I'm not sure what led you to believe such. It just looks really poor on GW to have these weird, separate units that act differently to their plastic counterparts in a very unintuitive way.
Complaining about rules jankyness from an ork, a codex more often then not was sumarisable with the word itself ruleswise is an issue to you?
Irony thine name is AAE.
What? Can you elaborate because I genuinely think you misunderstand what "janky" means. There are examples within the Ork range - all our bikers got "Speed Freeks" keyword while the FW bikers did not, for a very, very long time. All our units got "Dakka, Dakka, Dakka" except (you guessed it!) FW units for a very, very long time. It's the inconsistencies that are irritating and they exist throughout FW for all factions.
But please - do tell me, with examples, of all those janky rules Orks have enjoyed in this edition and others. Real interested to hear about that.
Was i talking about this edition?
No? Good did you get that, but a little reminder, Biker nobs? Shokk attackgun table? Etc. Were all aswell "janky" in the past.
But go ahead, let"s ban " janky " rulesets because feth empathy or common sense.
There was nothing janky about Nob Bikers or the SAG table lol? Care to explain exactly what you mean?
I have said nothing about banning anything. Stop projecting your weird issues with someone else onto me.
My suggestion would be to fix the offending units by bringing their rules in line with other, similar units and pointing them appropriately, if you're asking.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably because you ARE wrong. If the Leviathan were OP in any fashion outside Iron Hands, we'd have all sorts of Space Marine lists with them topping. However we do not. We also have most of the Iron Hands lists making headway without them as well. Also you're going to need to define what you consider janky, because you're just throwing terms around doesn't help your case.
Rubbish. IH simply provide the most effective way to play the Levi Dread so (surprise surprise) they're most often taken as IH in competitive lists. Remove IH and they don't suddenly become awful. They've always been a very, very points efficient unit. The success of IH without Levi Dreads does not in any way disprove that Levi Dreads are OP.
Janky generally means "unintuitive" but feel free not to comment if you don't understand the wording.
Except they aren't often taken in favor of things like Repulsors, which means Iron Hands did the deed. What's your point? They're clearly not taken in other Chapters after all. MAYBE it's because they aren't OP, and Iron Hands make all units too good basically. Shocker I know.
The Salt Mine wrote: Where was all this talk about leviathans being op last year before space marines came out? I mean chaos have better leviathans than loyalists base without buffs but I have not seen any competative chaos lists winning evens with them. Its not the leviathan. They are strong yes oplol hardly. Its the stupid gak space marines can do with their dreds now that make them broken.
The chaos leviathan has an inferior invul, cannot regain lost wounds except through the machine malifica rule, and operates under a far inferior codex. How exactly is it better?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: The Leviathan is not overpowered or under-costed by datasheet alone.
If it lost the Dreadnought keyword all issues are fixed. Simple replace it with "Heavy Dreadnought"
Now it can't halve it's wounds, be made into a character, etc
Dear god I actually agree with you.
Did you read what I said? I said without buffs IE not psych powers, stratagems, or outside model help. Data sheet to data sheet comparison with stormcannon array vs butcher cannon array since those are the most common variances. Loyalist has a 4++ invuln. Chaos has the ability to regain wounds, the butcher cannon is better at 36in range and being strength 8 but -1 ap and 2 less shots, the flamers are damage 2 instead of damage 1. So if the chaos version has all these things that are better than the loyalist version on the datasheet but the loyalist version is op why? Because its not the fething dreadnaught that is op its the fething buffs that space marines can give it and anyone with half a brain cell can see that.
The Salt Mine wrote: Where was all this talk about leviathans being op last year before space marines came out? I mean chaos have better leviathans than loyalists base without buffs but I have not seen any competative chaos lists winning evens with them. Its not the leviathan. They are strong yes oplol hardly. Its the stupid gak space marines can do with their dreds now that make them broken.
The chaos leviathan has an inferior invul, cannot regain lost wounds except through the machine malifica rule, and operates under a far inferior codex. How exactly is it better?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: The Leviathan is not overpowered or under-costed by datasheet alone.
If it lost the Dreadnought keyword all issues are fixed. Simple replace it with "Heavy Dreadnought"
Now it can't halve it's wounds, be made into a character, etc
Dear god I actually agree with you.
Did you read what I said? I said without buffs IE not psych powers, stratagems, or outside model help. Data sheet to data sheet comparison with stormcannon array vs butcher cannon array since those are the most common variances. Loyalist has a 4++ invuln. Chaos has the ability to regain wounds, the butcher cannon is better at 36in range and being strength 8 but -1 ap and 2 less shots, the flamers are damage 2 instead of damage 1. So if the chaos version has all these things that are better than the loyalist version on the datasheet but the loyalist version is op why? Because its not the fething dreadnaught that is op its the fething buffs that space marines can give it and anyone with half a brain cell can see that.
Whoa easy there Trigger! I agree it's the buffs provided by ih that's the problem. My question was why you thought the hellforged version was superior. The butcher cannon has superior range and strength but less ap and shots so I'd call that a wash. The loyalist version's superior invul is a big issue because high durability is one of the leviathan's biggest selling points. And since you're comparing the double butcher/storm cannon varieties then the loyalist's ability to sit back and be repaired by a tech marine is far superior than the hellforged version's ability to heal via combat. What are you doing getting your leviathan in combat if one of the advantages you point out is it's superior range?
The hellforged version is inferior and therefore should be cheaper than the loyalist version.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 03:25:32
Sorry the last part wasn't directed at you just the multitude of people complaining about a model that has existed all of 8th edition and was never even remotely close to an issue. However now since suppliments have come out this model is now broken and needs to be nerfed instead of the new rules making it broken. Also the tech marine repair is again an ouside model helping. I am compairing plain datasheet to datasheet. Also disagree that the weapon comparison is s wash. +1str is a huge upgrade and a breakpoint for wounding. That alone makes the butcher cannons better the extra range is just gravy
The Salt Mine wrote: Sorry the last part wasn't directed at you just the multitude of people complaining about a model that has existed all of 8th edition and was never even remotely close to an issue. However now since suppliments have come out this model is now broken and needs to be nerfed instead of the new rules making it broken. Also the tech marine repair is again an ouside model helping. I am compairing plain datasheet to datasheet. Also disagree that the weapon comparison is s wash. +1str is a huge upgrade and a breakpoint for wounding. That alone makes the butcher cannons better the extra range is just gravy
Ok we're cool. Though we'll just have to agree to disagree on the weapons. It's definitely ih that's making leviathans a problem. Sentencing fw to legends status just because a broken chapter supplement makes a single model broken when used with it is ridiculous.
Hopefully gw's plans for "rebalancing " fw means fixing the points and weird rules for many of the units and armies.
ESPECIALLY THE FETHING HELLFORGED SUPER HEAVYS.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/06 03:49:22
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