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Yeah, I can’t recall a time Marines were ever BAD.

Mediocre, yes. But bad? No.

 Ishagu wrote:
We can be pedantic about it, but generally yes, they have been utter trash for years.

Fine, Grey Knights were worse lol

Yes but the swinging pendulum approach gw likes to take is quite aggravating. They could at least make an effort to release new codexes closer together so that so many factions aren't left behind for so long. It would also go a long way to help with the whole "first codex is crap after everyone else gets their's " syndrome.

Personally I'm still just hacked off that a fething astreus can make the top ten of a big tournament and my hellforged fellblade is over 300 points more than one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I can’t recall a time Marines were ever BAD.

Mediocre, yes. But bad? No.

Remember for some people "bad" means not point and click. Or not ih.

Prior to the new codex all Standard Codex Marines that weren't Ultramarines or Raven Guard pre-nerf were pretty bad. Not mediocre. Bad. Unless you're counting the first month of 8th edition before other factions got a codex?

Now Marines that aren't Iron Hands are pretty good, but people need to calm down about labelling the whole faction as an auto win when this is definitely, 100% not the case.

So what about wraith-heavy Ulthwe? They were and are pretty bad-does that make Eldar bad?

(Ulthwe is the wraith subfaction, right? I don’t know my eldar super well.)

This applies to all of us in relations to all factions.

We need to be more accurate in targeting points of complaint. Is the Marine codex broken? Absolutely not!

Is the Iron Hands supplement too strong? Perhaps, but now we're onto something.
Even the custom chapters are perfectly fine until they are combined with a few supplement only strats.

It ain't like I don't understand where you're coming from. Every Faction in every edition has had options which are better and options that are worse. But while Marines (across all their lines) could have a half dozen (give or take) unique and competitive builds at any given time, most Factions would have to make do with one or less. I wouldn't say that makes a Faction bad.

 Ishagu wrote:
@MiguelFelstone

Lol you can't omit what I said after that.

The point is the LVO cannot be used to judge the state of the game. No ITC event can.

No one has once said that using the CA missions creates perfect faction equalibrium, but they do show a better level of balance. Yes, Astartes still perform well.

People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol

In the meantime, 3rd party homebrew rules cannot be used to gauge game balance because they fundamentally alter the game beyond what was designed officially.

People should not relax.

The reasons Marines are OP now goes beyond just having a good codex, they got a version of supplement rules that for free, no extra points, no Cp, stack ontop of their already good rules for units from the codex.

No faction outside of Marines has gotten that treatment, getting side grades and strange alternative choices with restrictions that give up your normal bonuses is not the same. The reason people shouldn't relax is because at this point in order for GW to make non marine codexes balanced they will have to have layered rules like Marines for free, which is completely different than the normal codex model we have seen. Otherwise it will be like 7th where either your army has a decurion option or it doesn't and that alone decided if you have any chance to be competitive.

 Ishagu wrote:
@MiguelFelstone

People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol

The sky isn't falling, the game isn't ruined, but there is a problem, and saying otherwise is

Space Marine players have definitely earned this, i never said otherwise. For years, and years and years they were the joke of the competitive scene. If any faction deserves it - they do, but other factions do need to be brought in line or some of the SM factions need adjustments.

If every SM chapter was as powerful as Ultramarines i doubt we'd even be talking about this.

@blaktoof

Not true at all.

The layers of rules don't elevate Ultramarines or Black Templars above a mediocre level of power, as an example.

The supplements can be rebalanced individually. They aren't a blanket problem.

I find it funny how literally a minute after I point out how we need to target specific things in our complaints, you use a blanket attack on an entire faction which does not apply to multiple chapters.

Relax and think.

blaktoof wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@MiguelFelstone

Lol you can't omit what I said after that.

The point is the LVO cannot be used to judge the state of the game. No ITC event can.

No one has once said that using the CA missions creates perfect faction equalibrium, but they do show a better level of balance. Yes, Astartes still perform well.

People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol

In the meantime, 3rd party homebrew rules cannot be used to gauge game balance because they fundamentally alter the game beyond what was designed officially.

People should not relax.

The reasons Marines are OP now goes beyond ain't having a good codex, they got a version of supplement rules that for free, no extra points, no Cp, stack ontop of their already good rules for units from the codex. No faction outside of Marines has gotten that treatment, getting side grades and strange alternative choices with restrictions that give up your normal bonuses is not the same. The reason people shouldn't relax is because at this point in order for GW to make non marine codexes balanced they will have to have layered rules like Marines for free, which is completely different than the normal codex model we have seen. Otherwise it will be like 7th where either your army has a decurion option or it doesn't and that alone decided if you have any chance to be competitive.

That is clearly not the case based on the data. Only some supplements are issues. Perhaps being able to assault turn 1 automatically with assualt cents is an oversite. Perhaps Ironhands super doctrine is absurd...Every army is getting a free supplement atm like eldar and TS...you are literally complaining about the direction of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@MiguelFelstone

People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol

The sky isn't falling, the game isn't ruined, but there is a problem, and saying otherwise is

Space Marine players have definitely earned this, i never said otherwise. For years, and years and years they were the joke of the competitive scene. If any faction deserves it - they do, but other factions do need to be brought in line or some of the SM factions need adjustments.

If every SM chapter was as powerful as Ultramarines i doubt we'd even be talking about this.

No we wouldn't. I agree with that. Dakka has an anti SM bias..It is obvious.

 Ishagu wrote:
They aren't a blanket problem.

I never said they were, i said the opposite of that. I said "If every SM chapter was as powerful as Ultramarines i doubt we'd be talking about this" - meaning i don't think ALL SM chapters are broken or even a problem.

Why do you keep finding fault in i haven't said?

Dakka has an anti- "top army" bias and always has. It's just your turn on the podium.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Shooty marines are busted as feth. Melee marines are still... well, go look at the results. It's amazing they can give BT and BA so many new rules and still get crap results.

BA can be a shooty army you know. You aren't required to go melee heavy with them. Encouraged? Sure. But not required. So maybe BA players need to adapt to the edition they're playing a bit.

Martel732 wrote:
Thanks 8th ed for trashing assault hard.

Having never been a big fan of the prominence of assault/melee, I agree. Thanks 8e, keep it up!

Sounds more like he just needs some shooting, if he has as much trouble getting rid of screens as he says.

I have quite a bit, but BA don't really shoot worth a damn compared to the real marine armies. Bottom line is the BA chapter trait sucks in 8th. And it shows. So no, not all marines are broken, despite the dumptruck of rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@MiguelFelstone

Lol you can't omit what I said after that.

The point is the LVO cannot be used to judge the state of the game. No ITC event can.

No one has once said that using the CA missions creates perfect faction equalibrium, but they do show a better level of balance. Yes, Astartes still perform well.

People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol

In the meantime, 3rd party homebrew rules cannot be used to gauge game balance because they fundamentally alter the game beyond what was designed officially.

People should not relax.

The reasons Marines are OP now goes beyond ain't having a good codex, they got a version of supplement rules that for free, no extra points, no Cp, stack ontop of their already good rules for units from the codex. No faction outside of Marines has gotten that treatment, getting side grades and strange alternative choices with restrictions that give up your normal bonuses is not the same. The reason people shouldn't relax is because at this point in order for GW to make non marine codexes balanced they will have to have layered rules like Marines for free, which is completely different than the normal codex model we have seen. Otherwise it will be like 7th where either your army has a decurion option or it doesn't and that alone decided if you have any chance to be competitive.

That is clearly not the case based on the data. Only some supplements are issues. Perhaps being able to assault turn 1 automatically with assualt cents is an oversite. Perhaps Ironhands super doctrine is absurd...Every army is getting a free supplement atm like eldar and TS...you are literally complaining about the direction of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@MiguelFelstone

People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol

The sky isn't falling, the game isn't ruined, but there is a problem, and saying otherwise is

Space Marine players have definitely earned this, i never said otherwise. For years, and years and years they were the joke of the competitive scene. If any faction deserves it - they do, but other factions do need to be brought in line or some of the SM factions need adjustments.

If every SM chapter was as powerful as Ultramarines i doubt we'd even be talking about this.

No we wouldn't. I agree with that. Dakka has an anti SM bias..It is obvious.

Do you actually believe that what non sm factions are getting in pa is equal to what sm got? The internally balanced codex? Nope. Free buffs just for buying a supplement, no cp or points required? Nope.

C:sm is a change in codex design philosophy and until everyone has a codex that follows that philosophy it's not an even playing field.

And someone should tell Martel to copy that ba list in that tournament. Three squads of Sanguinary Guards and in the top ten. Sounds like ba ain't so bad after all.

@Martel

Lol that's utter rubbish. They have access to the exact same re roll auras and the same ranged units, with a few exceptions.

Do you even play BA?

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Shooty marines are busted as feth. Melee marines are still... well, go look at the results. It's amazing they can give BT and BA so many new rules and still get crap results.

BA can be a shooty army you know. You aren't required to go melee heavy with them. Encouraged? Sure. But not required. So maybe BA players need to adapt to the edition they're playing a bit.

Martel732 wrote:
Thanks 8th ed for trashing assault hard.

Having never been a big fan of the prominence of assault/melee, I agree. Thanks 8e, keep it up!

Sounds more like he just needs some shooting, if he has as much trouble getting rid of screens as he says.

I have quite a bit, but BA don't really shoot worth a damn compared to the real marine armies.

Go to the link to that tournament. Study that list. Do what he did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
@Martel

Lol that's utter rubbish. They have access to the exact same re roll auras and the same ranged units, with a few exceptions that aren't staples of shooting lists.

Do you even play BA?

I thought the English had good manners.

 Ishagu wrote:
@Martel

Lol that's utter rubbish. They have access to the exact same re roll auras and the same ranged units, with a few exceptions.

Do you even play BA?

Shows what you know. BA chapter trait does nothing to help shooting and CC continues to be a joke.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Do you actually believe that what non sm factions are getting in pa is equal to what sm got? The internally balanced codex? Nope. Free buffs just for buying a supplement, no cp or points required? Nope.

No, in fact i think Chaos got the most, the new "2.0" CSM codex was a joke compared to what SMs got, and while PA was good they need fundamental changes to bring them to the same level.

I think a lot of the "anti SM bias" here is rooted in the fact GW has given so much attention to this faction recently and the sweeping changed they got actually had an impact on there viability, to the point some of the chapters are overtuned.

It's not just Chaos.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what about wraith-heavy Ulthwe? They were and are pretty bad-does that make Eldar bad?

(Ulthwe is the wraith subfaction, right? I don’t know my eldar super well.)

The problem is in how we analyze and approach the balance of these armies.

Are "Eldar" good? Yes.
Are Custom CW strong? Yes.
Is Ulthwe strong? No.

Just as you would not apply nerfs to how Ulthwe operates to nerf other Craftworlds you would not necessarily nerf UM to balance "Marines" when IH present a larger issue.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@MiguelFelstone

Lol you can't omit what I said after that.

The point is the LVO cannot be used to judge the state of the game. No ITC event can.

No one has once said that using the CA missions creates perfect faction equalibrium, but they do show a better level of balance. Yes, Astartes still perform well.

People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol

In the meantime, 3rd party homebrew rules cannot be used to gauge game balance because they fundamentally alter the game beyond what was designed officially.

People should not relax.

The reasons Marines are OP now goes beyond ain't having a good codex, they got a version of supplement rules that for free, no extra points, no Cp, stack ontop of their already good rules for units from the codex. No faction outside of Marines has gotten that treatment, getting side grades and strange alternative choices with restrictions that give up your normal bonuses is not the same. The reason people shouldn't relax is because at this point in order for GW to make non marine codexes balanced they will have to have layered rules like Marines for free, which is completely different than the normal codex model we have seen. Otherwise it will be like 7th where either your army has a decurion option or it doesn't and that alone decided if you have any chance to be competitive.

That is clearly not the case based on the data. Only some supplements are issues. Perhaps being able to assault turn 1 automatically with assualt cents is an oversite. Perhaps Ironhands super doctrine is absurd...Every army is getting a free supplement atm like eldar and TS...you are literally complaining about the direction of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@MiguelFelstone

People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol

The sky isn't falling, the game isn't ruined, but there is a problem, and saying otherwise is

Space Marine players have definitely earned this, i never said otherwise. For years, and years and years they were the joke of the competitive scene. If any faction deserves it - they do, but other factions do need to be brought in line or some of the SM factions need adjustments.

If every SM chapter was as powerful as Ultramarines i doubt we'd even be talking about this.

No we wouldn't. I agree with that. Dakka has an anti SM bias..It is obvious.

Do you actually believe that what non sm factions are getting in pa is equal to what sm got? The internally balanced codex? Nope. Free buffs just for buying a supplement, no cp or points required? Nope.

C:sm is a change in codex design philosophy and until everyone has a codex that follows that philosophy it's not an even playing field.

And someone should tell Martel to copy that ba list in that tournament. Three squads of Sanguinary Guards and in the top ten. Sounds like ba ain't so bad after all.

Do you actually believe marines were at an even starting point? OFC not. The rules they got were a direct fix to the fact that they were terrible. Turns out the doctrines and new strats and such were s perfect fix as it puts an army like ultras/Salamnders/whitescars square in the middle. Just granted by what I have seen from DA - they will also be above the curve. If you can't acknowledge that you are blind. SM were hands down the worst army in the game. BY A LONG SHOT - with the exception of GK (who are basically just marines). You need to get used to marine armies not being a free win for once. Plus - you should really stop referring to the new supplement marines as a whole entity - each supplement is basically a different army just like TS/DG/and CSM are different armies.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I can’t recall a time Marines were ever BAD.

Mediocre, yes. But bad? No.

They've been bad a lot. 7th before gladius, 5th ed, most of 8th.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I can’t recall a time Marines were ever BAD.

Mediocre, yes. But bad? No.

They've been bad a lot. 7th before gladius, 5th ed, most of 8th.

Anyone who thinks SMs haven't been terrible for years upon years either has that Momento thing or they just started playing last week.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Do you actually believe that what non sm factions are getting in pa is equal to what sm got? The internally balanced codex? Nope. Free buffs just for buying a supplement, no cp or points required? Nope.

No, in fact i think Chaos got the most, the new "2.0" CSM codex was a joke compared to what SMs got, and while PA was good they need fundamental changes to bring them to the same level.

I think a lot of the "anti SM bias" here is rooted in the fact GW has given so much attention to this faction recently and the sweeping changed they got actually had an impact on there viability, to the point some of the chapters are overtuned.

It's not just Chaos.

As a choas player I can confirm they are just complaining about having to soup to be powerful.
You can take a supreme command of TS with scarb occults and shoot twice with them every turn at +1 to wound. 2 CP (can give them a 3++ save with the right powers and bring back up to 3 a turn) (this will kill roughly 60 chaff infantry)
You can take a batallion of emperors children and shoot twice with a 20 man noise marine every turn with +1 str and +1 damage. 3CP (can give them a 5+ FNP with a stratagem) (this averages about 30 primaris marines killed)(or kill nearly 2 IK)
Both a 2+ to hit reroll 1's with the correct buffs (only 2 required).

This will practically destroy every infantry on the table if you can get LOS. It can also destroy vehicals too NP. The issue with CSM is they put all their eggs in 1 basket where a marine player gets a lot of utility out of auras.

Choas was already at a much stronger starting point than loyalist. They didn't get as much in their supplements but unless we are talking about Ironhands or RG (IF is also out of control not sure why they don't preform as well but they are too broken). They are in roughly the same position.

CSM are not as good as SM. They just aren't. CSM might be on par with BA or BT, but not the real marines.

What is the metric we're using for "bad" here? Cuz it seems like folks ain't on the same page for what's considered bad, and I'd like to get an idea of where folks draw the line between "mediocre" and "bad".

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I can’t recall a time Marines were ever BAD.

Mediocre, yes. But bad? No.

They've been bad a lot. 7th before gladius, 5th ed, most of 8th.

Gladius is a rare case...yet again. SM players needed about 400 free points to compete. Imagine having to pay points for a razorback? Plus the stuff that came after gladius was just silly. Ynnari...Decruian formation...deamonic incursion...it's best to forget about the end of 7th because it was just a cash grab. Plus I can confirm the power level of gladius wasn't really that high - it did okay in tournament because it could but hordes of crappy units on objectives - it wasn't blowing anyone off the table like ynnari. (funny anecdote - with ynnari in 7th I basically won a 2000 vs 4000 point battle again 2 DW armies because I held my entire army in reserve and my GSC ally got evaporated on turn 1 from 8 drop pods units. I came out of reserve and nearly destroyed their whole army in one turn and their preceding turn (2x soul burst per kill formation))

The Salt Mine wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Look up the Caledonian and the recent GW tournament, and the one prior.

Are you talking about https://tabletop.to/caledonian-uprising-2020? Not sure if this is the one but I don't think it proves what you think it proves since 4 out of the top 8 were some form of space marine. 9 out of the top 16 were space marines. I mean one of the top 16 was an imperial list with a solid space marine detachment as well so you could probably say 10 out of the top 16 had space marines in them. Props to the tzeentch guy who won though Id have like to seen some of his games to see how he uses it.

The most recent GW tournment I could find was the North American GT but that was back in May? I'm not trying to sound antagonistic or anything I would genuinely love to see the data you have on non-itc tournaments as I would love to see what the different metas look like. But feth its almost impossible to find a non-itc event when I google search this stuff.

Ishagu wrote:Prior to the new codex all Standard Codex Marines that weren't Ultramarines or Raven Guard pre-nerf were pretty bad. Not mediocre. Bad. Unless you're counting the first month of 8th edition before other factions got a codex?

Now Marines that aren't Iron Hands are pretty good, but people need to calm down about labelling the whole faction as an auto win when this is definitely, 100% not the case.

Interesting definition of pretty good... Bad.. and mediocare..

Alas yes yes… No problems with SM. Sm are perfectly balanced faction apart from one sub faction.. yes yes.. OF course.

I really don't get why you are so hellbent on trying to spin this narrative... How badly do you need to validate your snowflake army...??
Nobody sane that plays this game agrees that SM are fine as they are apart from IH.

Why not be honest and just own the OPness lol.
That way we can have a honest discussion so that we can try to figure out fixes and maybe that will trickle into GW.
At least the "ohh you don't know if its broken... wait and see" crowd that apparently cant read an obviously busted rules have gone quiet. Now its just the absurd that are left lol.

So what fixes?
Blanket nerfing one unit is not an answer because there another unit right behind it that will take its place that's just currently tiny bit less efficient so it doesn't come to the fore.
And that's the problem, I really don't see a fix because there is not a single one ting thats broken. Thers too many interactions happening with no downsides. Coupled with points drops and increased efficiency there's not fixing that without writging a new book which is not happening either.

So what's left is new codexes for other armies which will be even more ridiculous.

MMM White scars gladius was pretty good.

 flandarz wrote:
What is the metric we're using for "bad" here? Cuz it seems like folks ain't on the same page for what's considered bad, and I'd like to get an idea of where folks draw the line between "mediocre" and "bad".

Less than mid-teir. That's bad. If you haven't seen a SM list top a GT all year, it's bad. This is bad.

Martel732 wrote:
CSM are not as good as SM. They just aren't. CSM might be on par with BA or BT, but not the real marines.

Not Ironhands level clearly. Ironhands is just stupid.