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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL Chaos Marines were not brought up that far. Outside Alpha Legion they're dependent on CP to operate at all.
Every army needs CP to operate. Choas stratagems are flat out better than marine stratagems.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL Chaos Marines were not brought up that far. Outside Alpha Legion they're dependent on CP to operate at all.
Every army needs CP to operate. Choas stratagems are flat out better than marine stratagems.
Before c:sm and the supplements I'd agree. Now not so much.
Can we at least agree that no army should require cp to function properly?
My personal preference would be to remove stratagems all together and reblance the game entirely. However - with their existence they are essential to every army using them no army doesn't derive a huge boon from them. CSM might be more reliant on them but that is because they have some of the best strats in the game (Shoots twice with additional buffs) plus some of their new stratas are really good too. It's not an argument to say that an army isn't good because it needs to use stratagems to be strong. That is every army really.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Sorta like how Salamanders definitely DON'T have a better Vets Of The Long War-one that works on everything, rather than Infantry only.
Nope. That's not true. Definitely doesn't exist.
Where is the space marine stratagem that lets any infantry unit shoot twice to combine it with? Or the Ultra combo.
EC with +1 damage and str +1 to wound and shoot twice. 4cp from 3 stratagems. On a 20 man noise marine with prescience next to a lord - kills 38 primaris marines or 2 knights. Space marines have nothing compare to that stratagem wise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 20:37:11
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I'm not salty that Night Lords got the same stratagem Black Templars got except it's guaranteed to work and half the cost in CP... Not at all...
Doesn't it only work on one unit while the BT one works on multiple?
Nope. I thought so too at first, but it explicitly calls out "that unit":
"Use this Stratagem in the Movement Phase, when an enemy Infantry unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any Black Templars Infantry unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
Here's the Night Lords one for reference:
"Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent's Movement Phase. Select one Night Lords unit from your army that's not a Vehicle. Until the start of your next turn, enemy units within 1" of that unit cannot Fall Back unless they have the Vehicle or Titanic Keyword, or have a minimum Move characteristic."
The Night Lords one can lock multiple units, always works, and is half the cost. They're printed in the same book.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
60 shots
175/3 hits (2+ rerollable)
175/6 wounds (4+, no rerolls)
175/18 unsaved (3+ save)
175/9 damage, or 19.44 per volley (doubled, of course, with Endless Cacophony)
So, you are NOT killing two Knights-you're killing one, and maybe bracketing a second. Unless the Knight has Armor of the Sainted Ion, which outright HALVES the damage dealt. And this costs you 340 points and 4 CP, while being VERY fragile. If you don't get T1, you don't get this combo against a tournament list.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I'm not salty that Night Lords got the same stratagem Black Templars got except it's guaranteed to work and half the cost in CP... Not at all...
Doesn't it only work on one unit while the BT one works on multiple?
Nope. I thought so too at first, but it explicitly calls out "that unit":
"Use this Stratagem in the Movement Phase, when an enemy Infantry unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any Black Templars Infantry unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
Here's the Night Lords one for reference:
"Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent's Movement Phase. Select one Night Lords unit from your army that's not a Vehicle. Until the start of your next turn, enemy units within 1" of that unit cannot Fall Back unless they have the Vehicle or Titanic Keyword, or have a minimum Move characteristic."
The Night Lords one can lock multiple units, always works, and is half the cost. They're printed in the same book.
The Night Lords stratagem allows one nl infantry unit to lock opponents in cc. The bt version locks any enemy unit within 1 of anybt infantry unit in cc. You don't select just one unit. So multiple bt units can lock units in cc from the same strategem. Not the same.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/11 20:57:07
JNAProductions wrote: 60 shots
175/3 hits (2+ rerollable)
175/6 wounds (4+, no rerolls)
175/18 unsaved (3+ save)
175/9 damage, or 19.44 per volley (doubled, of course, with Endless Cacophony)
So, you are NOT killing two Knights-you're killing one, and maybe bracketing a second. Unless the Knight has Armor of the Sainted Ion, which outright HALVES the damage dealt. And this costs you 340 points and 4 CP, while being VERY fragile. If you don't get T1, you don't get this combo against a tournament list.
And it's locked to EC. So worth feth all to other legions.
JNAProductions wrote: 60 shots
175/3 hits (2+ rerollable)
175/6 wounds (4+, no rerolls)
175/18 unsaved (3+ save)
175/9 damage, or 19.44 per volley (doubled, of course, with Endless Cacophony)
So, you are NOT killing two Knights-you're killing one, and maybe bracketing a second. Unless the Knight has Armor of the Sainted Ion, which outright HALVES the damage dealt. And this costs you 340 points and 4 CP, while being VERY fragile. If you don't get T1, you don't get this combo against a tournament list.
And it's locked to EC. So worth feth all to other legions.
That too. Admittedly, VotLW+ is Salamander exclusive too.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: 60 shots
175/3 hits (2+ rerollable)
175/6 wounds (4+, no rerolls)
175/18 unsaved (3+ save)
175/9 damage, or 19.44 per volley (doubled, of course, with Endless Cacophony)
So, you are NOT killing two Knights-you're killing one, and maybe bracketing a second. Unless the Knight has Armor of the Sainted Ion, which outright HALVES the damage dealt. And this costs you 340 points and 4 CP, while being VERY fragile. If you don't get T1, you don't get this combo against a tournament list.
You are right - it's 40 wounds on average to a knight. The point is without these stratagems and just presence you deal just 3.5 wounds to a knight. Space marines don't have offensive stratagems which can ramp the damage of a unit by over 1000%. Not even saying this is the best way to run a choas army. Just stating marines don't get stratagems like this. It is a good thing too. If aggressors or cents had access to anything like this they would destroy your entire army in 1 turn.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I'm not salty that Night Lords got the same stratagem Black Templars got except it's guaranteed to work and half the cost in CP... Not at all...
Doesn't it only work on one unit while the BT one works on multiple?
Nope. I thought so too at first, but it explicitly calls out "that unit":
"Use this Stratagem in the Movement Phase, when an enemy Infantry unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any Black Templars Infantry unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
Here's the Night Lords one for reference:
"Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent's Movement Phase. Select one Night Lords unit from your army that's not a Vehicle. Until the start of your next turn, enemy units within 1" of that unit cannot Fall Back unless they have the Vehicle or Titanic Keyword, or have a minimum Move characteristic."
The Night Lords one can lock multiple units, always works, and is half the cost. They're printed in the same book.
The Night Lords stratagem allows one nl infantry unit to lock opponents in cc. The bt version locks any enemy unit within 1 of anybt infantry unit in cc. You don't select just one unit. So multiple bt units can lock units in cc from the same strategem. Not the same.
No it doesn't. You use it when an enemy unit wants to fall back. On a 2+ that unit cannot fall back. It explicitly affects a single unit. The "any" is referring to a Black Templars unit that the selected unit has to be within 1" of, but you're only allowed to select one enemy unit.
If it worked the way you guys thought it did, I'd agree that it would be worth double the cost, but it doesn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 21:03:17
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
JNAProductions wrote: 60 shots
175/3 hits (2+ rerollable)
175/6 wounds (4+, no rerolls)
175/18 unsaved (3+ save)
175/9 damage, or 19.44 per volley (doubled, of course, with Endless Cacophony)
So, you are NOT killing two Knights-you're killing one, and maybe bracketing a second. Unless the Knight has Armor of the Sainted Ion, which outright HALVES the damage dealt. And this costs you 340 points and 4 CP, while being VERY fragile. If you don't get T1, you don't get this combo against a tournament list.
You are right - it's 40 wounds on average to a knight. The point is without these stratagems and just presence you deal just 3.5 wounds to a knight. Space marines don't have offensive stratagems which can ramp the damage of a unit by over 1000%. Not even saying this is the best way to run a choas army. Just stating marines don't get stratagems like this. It is a good thing too. If aggressors or cents had access to anything like this they would destroy your entire army in 1 turn.
Yeah, and for less points, a Space Marine DEDICATED TRANSPORT can do just shy of 8 points of damage to a Knight. With no outside buffs. A Dedicated Transport. For less than 300 points. Does more than double the damage of a more expensive CSM Squad.
Nope, perfectly balanced. Nothing to see here. CSM are better than SM, nothing to worry about!
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: 60 shots
175/3 hits (2+ rerollable)
175/6 wounds (4+, no rerolls)
175/18 unsaved (3+ save)
175/9 damage, or 19.44 per volley (doubled, of course, with Endless Cacophony)
So, you are NOT killing two Knights-you're killing one, and maybe bracketing a second. Unless the Knight has Armor of the Sainted Ion, which outright HALVES the damage dealt. And this costs you 340 points and 4 CP, while being VERY fragile. If you don't get T1, you don't get this combo against a tournament list.
You are right - it's 40 wounds on average to a knight. The point is without these stratagems and just presence you deal just 3.5 wounds to a knight. Space marines don't have offensive stratagems which can ramp the damage of a unit by over 1000%. Not even saying this is the best way to run a choas army. Just stating marines don't get stratagems like this. It is a good thing too. If aggressors or cents had access to anything like this they would destroy your entire army in 1 turn.
Yeah, and for less points, a Space Marine DEDICATED TRANSPORT can do just shy of 8 points of damage to a Knight. With no outside buffs. A Dedicated Transport. For less than 300 points. Does more than double the damage of a more expensive CSM Squad.
Nope, perfectly balanced. Nothing to see here. CSM are better than SM, nothing to worry about!
What does what you just said have to do with the assertion that CSM have better stratagems than Marines?
EDIT: Also, for what it's worth, the various infiltration stratagems, as well as Tremor Shells, are at least on par with the stronger CSM Stratagems IMO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 21:16:10
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
It does imply that SMs are far less reliant on their Stratagems, giving them more flexibility in Detachments (cuz they don't need to farm CP as much) and thus what they field.
My personal stance is that this game is WAY too killy, to the point where who gets first go practically decides the victor. Stratagems obviously exacerbate this problem.
I'm not salty that Night Lords got the same stratagem Black Templars got except it's guaranteed to work and half the cost in CP... Not at all...
Doesn't it only work on one unit while the BT one works on multiple?
Nope. I thought so too at first, but it explicitly calls out "that unit":
"Use this Stratagem in the Movement Phase, when an enemy Infantry unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any Black Templars Infantry unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
Here's the Night Lords one for reference:
"Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent's Movement Phase. Select one Night Lords unit from your army that's not a Vehicle. Until the start of your next turn, enemy units within 1" of that unit cannot Fall Back unless they have the Vehicle or Titanic Keyword, or have a minimum Move characteristic."
The Night Lords one can lock multiple units, always works, and is half the cost. They're printed in the same book.
The Night Lords stratagem allows one nl infantry unit to lock opponents in cc. The bt version locks any enemy unit within 1 of anybt infantry unit in cc. You don't select just one unit. So multiple bt units can lock units in cc from the same strategem. Not the same.
No it doesn't. You use it when an enemy unit wants to fall back. On a 2+ that unit cannot fall back. It explicitly affects a single unit. The "any" is referring to a Black Templars unit that the selected unit has to be within 1" of, but you're only allowed to select one enemy unit.
If it worked the way you guys thought it did, I'd agree that it would be worth double the cost, but it doesn't.
Ok. If you're correct then it is inferior. Is there any errata on this?
I'm not salty that Night Lords got the same stratagem Black Templars got except it's guaranteed to work and half the cost in CP... Not at all...
Doesn't it only work on one unit while the BT one works on multiple?
Nope. I thought so too at first, but it explicitly calls out "that unit":
"Use this Stratagem in the Movement Phase, when an enemy Infantry unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any Black Templars Infantry unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
Here's the Night Lords one for reference:
"Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent's Movement Phase. Select one Night Lords unit from your army that's not a Vehicle. Until the start of your next turn, enemy units within 1" of that unit cannot Fall Back unless they have the Vehicle or Titanic Keyword, or have a minimum Move characteristic."
The Night Lords one can lock multiple units, always works, and is half the cost. They're printed in the same book.
The Night Lords stratagem allows one nl infantry unit to lock opponents in cc. The bt version locks any enemy unit within 1 of anybt infantry unit in cc. You don't select just one unit. So multiple bt units can lock units in cc from the same strategem. Not the same.
No it doesn't. You use it when an enemy unit wants to fall back. On a 2+ that unit cannot fall back. It explicitly affects a single unit. The "any" is referring to a Black Templars unit that the selected unit has to be within 1" of, but you're only allowed to select one enemy unit.
If it worked the way you guys thought it did, I'd agree that it would be worth double the cost, but it doesn't.
Ok. If you're correct then it is inferior. Is there any errata on this?
Nope.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
flandarz wrote: It does imply that SMs are far less reliant on their Stratagems, giving them more flexibility in Detachments (cuz they don't need to farm CP as much) and thus what they field.
My personal stance is that this game is WAY too killy, to the point where who gets first go practically decides the victor. Stratagems obviously exacerbate this problem.
Yes exactly. Csm are forced to use ridiculous combos to compete, and make horrible un thematic lists to power them.
I'm not salty that Night Lords got the same stratagem Black Templars got except it's guaranteed to work and half the cost in CP... Not at all...
Doesn't it only work on one unit while the BT one works on multiple?
Nope. I thought so too at first, but it explicitly calls out "that unit":
"Use this Stratagem in the Movement Phase, when an enemy Infantry unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any Black Templars Infantry unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
Here's the Night Lords one for reference:
"Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent's Movement Phase. Select one Night Lords unit from your army that's not a Vehicle. Until the start of your next turn, enemy units within 1" of that unit cannot Fall Back unless they have the Vehicle or Titanic Keyword, or have a minimum Move characteristic."
The Night Lords one can lock multiple units, always works, and is half the cost. They're printed in the same book.
The Night Lords stratagem allows one nl infantry unit to lock opponents in cc. The bt version locks any enemy unit within 1 of anybt infantry unit in cc. You don't select just one unit. So multiple bt units can lock units in cc from the same strategem. Not the same.
No it doesn't. You use it when an enemy unit wants to fall back. On a 2+ that unit cannot fall back. It explicitly affects a single unit. The "any" is referring to a Black Templars unit that the selected unit has to be within 1" of, but you're only allowed to select one enemy unit.
If it worked the way you guys thought it did, I'd agree that it would be worth double the cost, but it doesn't.
Ok. If you're correct then it is inferior. Is there any errata on this?
Nope.
Figures.
But until we have clarification I concede the point to you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 21:21:00
You need something in your list which can deploy outside your deployment zone to block this. I realise that Aeldari are short of choices in this regard but 80pts for a huge great Webway Gate of Nope for all those RG tricks could be points well spent. If their tricks are currently costing you more than 80pts in casualties then I'd say that is a good trade. At least it looks real pretty
Looks real pretty is all it's worth... 80pts for one? One wouldn't be enough half the time. In an already expensive army, 80-160 pts is huge... In a competitive setting would you really waste the pts if you take them in case you match up against RG? I understand taking things like night spinners as there is a lot primaris but they can kill other things. But the gate is just very acute tailoring.
If you can't spare 4% of your list to hold off Raven Guard, deepstriking Night Lords etc then it just can't be a problem for you. Clearly you don't think any of those things are enough of a problem to tool up against. Which is fine, in that case RG etc are clearly not OP because you see no need to counter them.
The gate is BIG. Yes it is a few more points than a barebones scout squad but it does their job in a codex that otherwise does not handle this particular risk very well - and most codexes have to pay more points to fill this role than just marines do.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL Chaos Marines were not brought up that far. Outside Alpha Legion they're dependent on CP to operate at all.
Every army needs CP to operate. Choas stratagems are flat out better than marine stratagems.
Before c:sm and the supplements I'd agree. Now not so much.
Can we at least agree that no army should require cp to function properly?
Stratgems costing cp instead of being bought pre battle for points is genuinely one of the largest head scratchers I have about the game. Make them cost points, make it so if you want to use it more than once you have to buy it multiple times, make them costed appropriate to their strength and make it so no more than 20% of points can be spent on them.
All of a sudden it's almost fine that a certain army or way of playing needs stratagems to function properly, as you are sacrificing models for tactical flexibility. It can also make some armies more elite in nature that usually wouldn't be.
Catachan devils themed army list? All of a sudden you have the stratagems to make them feel unique and elite.
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I'm not salty that Night Lords got the same stratagem Black Templars got except it's guaranteed to work and half the cost in CP... Not at all...
Doesn't it only work on one unit while the BT one works on multiple?
Nope. I thought so too at first, but it explicitly calls out "that unit":
"Use this Stratagem in the Movement Phase, when an enemy Infantry unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any Black Templars Infantry unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
Here's the Night Lords one for reference:
"Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent's Movement Phase. Select one Night Lords unit from your army that's not a Vehicle. Until the start of your next turn, enemy units within 1" of that unit cannot Fall Back unless they have the Vehicle or Titanic Keyword, or have a minimum Move characteristic."
The Night Lords one can lock multiple units, always works, and is half the cost. They're printed in the same book.
The Night Lords stratagem allows one nl infantry unit to lock opponents in cc. The bt version locks any enemy unit within 1 of anybt infantry unit in cc. You don't select just one unit. So multiple bt units can lock units in cc from the same strategem. Not the same.
No it doesn't. You use it when an enemy unit wants to fall back. On a 2+ that unit cannot fall back. It explicitly affects a single unit. The "any" is referring to a Black Templars unit that the selected unit has to be within 1" of, but you're only allowed to select one enemy unit.
If it worked the way you guys thought it did, I'd agree that it would be worth double the cost, but it doesn't.
Ok. If you're correct then it is inferior. Is there any errata on this?
Nope.
Oh well. At least you can play those BT as a certain other, Black coloured Marine sub faction, huh?
Your complaints, while valid, aren't new or in any way unique to BT. Nor does a slightly overcosted stratagem a bad sub faction make.
My Evil Sunz Orks who are allegedly obsessed with 'going fasta' have no way to lock anything in combat, nor can they disembark from a vehicle and charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Oh believe me, I want it to work the way people seemed to think it did too.
I actually had them reversed - the NL strat allows the unit to lock multiple others in combat. For half the CP cost? Chaos. Literally.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 21:34:18
I'm not salty that Night Lords got the same stratagem Black Templars got except it's guaranteed to work and half the cost in CP... Not at all...
Doesn't it only work on one unit while the BT one works on multiple?
Nope. I thought so too at first, but it explicitly calls out "that unit":
"Use this Stratagem in the Movement Phase, when an enemy Infantry unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any Black Templars Infantry unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
Here's the Night Lords one for reference:
"Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent's Movement Phase. Select one Night Lords unit from your army that's not a Vehicle. Until the start of your next turn, enemy units within 1" of that unit cannot Fall Back unless they have the Vehicle or Titanic Keyword, or have a minimum Move characteristic."
The Night Lords one can lock multiple units, always works, and is half the cost. They're printed in the same book.
The Night Lords stratagem allows one nl infantry unit to lock opponents in cc. The bt version locks any enemy unit within 1 of anybt infantry unit in cc. You don't select just one unit. So multiple bt units can lock units in cc from the same strategem. Not the same.
No it doesn't. You use it when an enemy unit wants to fall back. On a 2+ that unit cannot fall back. It explicitly affects a single unit. The "any" is referring to a Black Templars unit that the selected unit has to be within 1" of, but you're only allowed to select one enemy unit.
If it worked the way you guys thought it did, I'd agree that it would be worth double the cost, but it doesn't.
Ok. If you're correct then it is inferior. Is there any errata on this?
Nope.
Oh well. At least you can play those BT as a certain other, Black coloured Marine sub faction, huh?
Believe it or not most of the stuff I own could well be worse as Iron Hands. I could buy a bunch of new units and play Iron Hands, but then so could anyone else.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
