Militarum Tempestus Tactica — 8th Edition

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**Kcalehc**

Trickstick wrote:
Sounds like you really want an Officer of the Fleet in that army.

Anyone think the Blessed Bolt Pistol is worth taking? I know that relic pistols are pretty pointless, but 2 character sniping shot at 12", with damage 3 against psykers could be ok. Although you give up the command rod. Eh, it's still kind of pointless isn't it?

Its not awful if there's an enemy psyker with not great armor somewhere. And as the bearer is 9th Iotan, he's getting an extra hit for every 6 rolled to hit, so not absolutely terrible.

But still probably not as good as other options, and not really worth spending a CP on to get it.

**Apple Peel**

CptJericho wrote:
I've been theoryhammering a triple strike list that should keep your momentum going and the enemy on the defense. I like to call it Drop Force Hydra.

List:
Battalion (Iotan Dragons, Drop Force)
Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
Lord Commissar with Powerfist
2x Tempestus Scions (10 man)
Tempestus Scions (9 man)
Astropath
Wyrdvane Psykers (3 man)
2x Valkyries with Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters

Battalion (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)
Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
Primaris Psyker
2x Tempestus Scions with 4 Plasma Guns (10 man)
Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma Guns (5 man)
Tempestus Command Squad with 4 Plasma Guns
2x Officer of the Fleet
Valkyrie with Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters
3x Taurox Primes with Missile Launcher and Autocannons

Battalion (Kappic Eagles)
Tempestor Prime eith Command Rod
Aradia Madellan
2x Tempestus Scions with 4 Hotshot Volley Guns (10 man)
Tempestus Scions with 2 Hotshot Volley Guns (5 man)
Tempestus Scions Command Squad with 4 Hotshot Volley Guns

Tactics:
Use the Valkyries, Dragons, and Psykers to annihilate the enemy's screen turn 1 with first rank second rank fire and mortal wounds (use the strat to allow grav chute within 5" if a juicy target is available for grenadiers and charge to tie up their lines). Drop the Lions turn 2 to destroy the big enemy units with support from the Taurox Primes. The Plasma Guns Rerolling 1s, Rerolling wounds, and being AP4 should put a pretty nice dent in a couple things. Turn 3 your Taurox Primes should have moved up to be in a position to let out the Eagles and have them clean up stragglers and hold objectives.

If your opponent screens with tougher units swap out the Dragons with the Lions and drop the Dragons turn 2 to kill off their weaker units.

Doesn’t work. Only Stormtroopers doctrine detachments get to use Tempestus Drop Force.

**MrDot**

Apple Peel wrote:
CptJericho wrote:
I've been theoryhammering a triple strike list that should keep your momentum going and the enemy on the defense. I like to call it Drop Force Hydra.

List:
Battalion (Iotan Dragons, Drop Force)
Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
Lord Commissar with Powerfist
2x Tempestus Scions (10 man)
Tempestus Scions (9 man)
Astropath
Wyrdvane Psykers (3 man)
2x Valkyries with Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters

Battalion (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)
Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
Primaris Psyker
2x Tempestus Scions with 4 Plasma Guns (10 man)
Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma Guns (5 man)
Tempestus Command Squad with 4 Plasma Guns
2x Officer of the Fleet
Valkyrie with Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters
3x Taurox Primes with Missile Launcher and Autocannons

Battalion (Kappic Eagles)
Tempestor Prime eith Command Rod
Aradia Madellan
2x Tempestus Scions with 4 Hotshot Volley Guns (10 man)
Tempestus Scions with 2 Hotshot Volley Guns (5 man)
Tempestus Scions Command Squad with 4 Hotshot Volley Guns

Tactics:
Use the Valkyries, Dragons, and Psykers to annihilate the enemy's screen turn 1 with first rank second rank fire and mortal wounds (use the strat to allow grav chute within 5" if a juicy target is available for grenadiers and charge to tie up their lines). Drop the Lions turn 2 to destroy the big enemy units with support from the Taurox Primes. The Plasma Guns Rerolling 1s, Rerolling wounds, and being AP4 should put a pretty nice dent in a couple things. Turn 3 your Taurox Primes should have moved up to be in a position to let out the Eagles and have them clean up stragglers and hold objectives.

If your opponent screens with tougher units swap out the Dragons with the Lions and drop the Dragons turn 2 to kill off their weaker units.

Doesn’t work. Only Stormtroopers doctrine detachments get to use Tempestus Drop Force.

Oh s..t here we go again....

I don't think so

The Vigilus FAQ was before the new doctrines were added

And a think in this answer they only want to say that you can use Storm Trooper as before and you can find it on 65 page~

So...i think you can

You have militarum Tempestus detachment? Yes. How matter what doctrine you use? It is still Militarum Tempestus detachment

So its intended what you can use Drop Force because its apply to Militarum Tempestus detachment. In past there were only one detachment keyword- storm troopers. But now you have additional six. So it intended that you can apply Drop Force to anything.

Please stop so strictly relate on RAW...

**Trickstick**

Let's not even start that argument again. Just don't assume that your opponent or TO will support the interpretation you want, and discuss it before hand. No one will be served by derailing the thread. Maybe start a YMDC thread for that?

**Gnollu**

Let's assume 2000/1750 game with scions battalion.
For the sake of kappic eagles which transport would be better?
Obvious choice is taurox prime but it does not benefit from tempestus doctrine.
I was thinking about tallarn chimera with double HB or catachan with double flamers. Kappic Eagles need to disembark from TRANSPORT without stating which regiment this transport has to be from.

My understanding is that chimera have this 1T more and also able to deploy smoke turn1 to provide much bigger chance of transport survival for around 40pts less

**Sterling191**

We were literally just discussing what the requirements to use Drop Force are: being a detachment with the Storm Troopers doctrine. The PA5 faq has changed none of that. This is a blatantly illegal list.

**Dynas**

Trickstick wrote:
Kcalehc wrote:
How are they locked out of using Drop Force?

You pick Storm Troopers Doctrine, then you can use it, as per the earlier FAQ. No where does it say you have to use the Doctrine associated with your regiment.

The point is that you can't have, say, Kappic Eagles doctrine in a Drop Force.

Again still not seeing how this is the case. The Drop force requires Militarum Tempestus keyword, and the new regiments still have that.

Anyway moving on...

Im really leaning towards the lions as the best overall. They get the -1, have the 5++ relic and the reroll 1's WLT.

**CptJericho**

Gnollu wrote:
Let's assume 2000/1750 game with scions battalion.
For the sake of kappic eagles which transport would be better?
Obvious choice is taurox prime but it does not benefit from tempestus doctrine.
I was thinking about tallarn chimera with double HB or catachan with double flamers. Kappic Eagles need to disembark from TRANSPORT without stating which regiment this transport has to be from.

My understanding is that chimera have this 1T more and also able to deploy smoke turn1 to provide much bigger chance of transport survival for around 40pts less

I would probably stick with the Taurox Prime since it can move faster and you can use the strategem to make it hit on a 2+ if it stays still.

Edit: Grammar

**Trickstick**

Dynas wrote:
Again still not seeing how this is the case. The Drop force requires Militarum Tempestus keyword, and the new regiments still have that.

That is not the actual requirement. You have to be "a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment", which is only defined in the Vigilus FAQ as a detachment with the Stormtrooper doctrine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really don't want to argue about it, I only posted so that that side of the argument was actually stated.

**MrDot**

Somebody, please, ask the GW and post the reply. I've so tired of this conversation

**Trickstick**

MrDot wrote:
Somebody, please, ask the GW and post the reply. I've so tired of this conversation

Especially here. We all know which way we think it goes, and no one is going to change their mind.

**Sterling191**

Dynas wrote:

Again still not seeing how this is the case. The Drop force requires Militarum Tempestus keyword, and the new regiments still have that.

They do not have the Storm Troopers Doctrine, which per the Vigilus FAQ is required to be a Militarum Tempestus detachment (it requires BOTH the keyword and the Doctrine). The PA5 FAQ was the perfect opportunity to update that. They clearly chose not to.

MrDot wrote:
Somebody, please, ask the GW and post the reply. I've so tired of this conversation

We did. They declined to answer it. Which makes your list illegal.

**MrDot**

Trickstick wrote:
MrDot wrote:
Somebody, please, ask the GW and post the reply. I've so tired of this conversation

Especially here. We all know which way we think it goes, and no one is going to change their mind.

Yep

End of discussion until we see the GW answer on this question

**Trickstick**

There is even a YMDC thread about this:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785675.page

Edit: I made a specific thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/786321.page#10740013

**MrDot**

Sterling191 wrote:
Dynas wrote:

Again still not seeing how this is the case. The Drop force requires Militarum Tempestus keyword, and the new regiments still have that.

They do not have the Storm Troopers Doctrine, which per the Vigilus FAQ is required to be a Militarum Tempestus detachment (it requires BOTH the keyword and the Doctrine). The PA5 FAQ was the perfect opportunity to update that. They clearly chose not to.

MrDot wrote:
Somebody, please, ask the GW and post the reply. I've so tired of this conversation

We did. They declined to answer it. Which makes your list illegal.

Not my list dude

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJericho wrote:
I've been theoryhammering a triple strike list that should keep your momentum going and the enemy on the defense. I like to call it Drop Force Hydra.

List:
Battalion (Iotan Dragons, Drop Force)
Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
Lord Commissar with Powerfist
2x Tempestus Scions (10 man)
Tempestus Scions (9 man)
Astropath
Wyrdvane Psykers (3 man)
2x Valkyries with Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters

Battalion (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)
Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
Primaris Psyker
2x Tempestus Scions with 4 Plasma Guns (10 man)
Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma Guns (5 man)
Tempestus Command Squad with 4 Plasma Guns
2x Officer of the Fleet
Valkyrie with Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters
3x Taurox Primes with Missile Launcher and Autocannons

Battalion (Kappic Eagles)
Tempestor Prime eith Command Rod
Aradia Madellan
2x Tempestus Scions with 4 Hotshot Volley Guns (10 man)
Tempestus Scions with 2 Hotshot Volley Guns (5 man)
Tempestus Scions Command Squad with 4 Hotshot Volley Guns

Tactics:
Use the Valkyries, Dragons, and Psykers to annihilate the enemy's screen turn 1 with first rank second rank fire and mortal wounds (use the strat to allow grav chute within 5" if a juicy target is available for grenadiers and charge to tie up their lines). Drop the Lions turn 2 to destroy the big enemy units with support from the Taurox Primes. The Plasma Guns Rerolling 1s, Rerolling wounds, and being AP4 should put a pretty nice dent in a couple things. Turn 3 your Taurox Primes should have moved up to be in a position to let out the Eagles and have them clean up stragglers and hold objectives.

If your opponent screens with tougher units swap out the Dragons with the Lions and drop the Dragons turn 2 to kill off their weaker units.

You dont have enough anti tank weapons so against vehicle heavy lists you will struggle

**CrabstuffedMushrooms**

Checking in to hear the fall-out from the FAQ...

Goonhammer Hot Take:

https://www.goonhammer.com/hot-take-the-greater-good-faq/

**Trickstick**

There wasn't really that much in the FAQ.

A fixed relic and no double doctrine. Both things that were pretty much expected.

**MrDot**

CrabstuffedMushrooms wrote:
Checking in to hear the fall-out from the FAQ...

Goonhammer Hot Take:

https://www.goonhammer.com/hot-take-the-greater-good-faq/

And the holywar about Drop Force haha

**generalchaos34**

Trickstick wrote:
There wasn't really that much in the FAQ.

A fixed relic and no double doctrine. Both things that were pretty much expected.

The relic was a huge fail in general. It actually had promise as a boltgun.

**Trickstick**

MrDot wrote:
And the holywar about Drop Force haha

That is hopefully exiled to the realms of YMDC.

**gbghg**

The ruling on the doctrines was expected to some extent, there was always hope though. I don't even see how anyone can argue about the drop force, vigilus faq explicitly defines what qualifies as a milatarum tempestus detachment for the purpose of the drop force and the greater good faq said nothing to contradict it.

They fixed the relic at least. I think that covers most of the questions people had on the guard rules.

**General Hobbs**

Trickstick wrote:
Dynas wrote:
Again still not seeing how this is the case. The Drop force requires Militarum Tempestus keyword, and the new regiments still have that.

That is not the actual requirement. You have to be "a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment", which is only defined in the Vigilus FAQ as a detachment with the Stormtrooper doctrine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really don't want to argue about it, I only posted so that that side of the argument was actually stated.

So I take a detachment. I take a company commander, a primaris psyker, 3 infantry squads, and 3 Wyverns.

I choose the stormtrooper doctrine.

This makes it a Miltarum Tempestus detachment, opening up the MT doctrines.

I then add a Tempestor Prime and a Valkyrie and a Thunderbolt fighter.

Using Progeny of Conflict, I get an extra Warlord Trait( either Old Grudges or Grand Strategist). I also get access to Advanced Counter Measures and Hammer Blow.

And on top of that I take Emperor Wrath's Artillery Company for a Wyvern.

NOw.....I use the Field Commander trait on the company commander, and give him the relic that denies cover.

I shoot a Wyvern, s....and use Direct Onslaught to add +1, so now I am getting Stormtrooper bonus hits on a 5+.

Take Yarrick for rerolls of 1.....Anything else we can add to boost it?

**gbghg**

So I take a detachment. I take a company commander, a primaris psyker, 3 infantry squads, and 3 Manticores.

I choose the stormtrooper doctrine.

This makes it a Miltarum Tempestus detachment, opening up the MT doctrines

FAQ only applies to the tempestus drop force, it doesn't let you make anything you want into a tempestus detachment. Full entry is below.

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

To clarify, any AM detachment with stormtroopers can take the drop force but that doesn't give the Militarum Tempestus keyword as the codex explicitly blocks you from assigning "Militarum Tempestus" as a regimental keyword. So the detachment is only "Militarum tempestus" as far as the drop force is concerned and is <REGIMENT> in all other regards, which is messy as hell but otherwise clearcut.

**Dukeofstuff**

That is correct to my recollection -- a lone scion unit in that larger manticore and guard force would not get the benefit of EITHER the stormtrooper doctrine its tempestus side brings, NOR of the stormtrooper emulating custom doctrine that the gaurd replaced regiment with. So its not a mil temp style drop troop, not eligible, and having the manticores declared as stormtrooper shooting troops wouldn't give you *(for example) valkyries with advanced countermeasures as a strat. Note that emperor's wrath has also no effect on manticores whatsoever.
Also, ONLY listed units gain the drop force keyword, specifically from
/snip/
Tempestor Primes, Tempestus Scions, Tempestus Command Squads and Valkyries in that Detachment gain the Tempestus Drop Force keyword.
/snip/

So you couldn't field commander and relic a company commander who somehow found himself in an all tempestus detachment, even if you foudn a TO who would rule in your favor that it didn't break the doctrine having him there. Similarly (go look it up) manticores are not designated emperor's wrath artillery pieces. Only hydra,. basi, and wyvies.

**CptJericho**

For a pure Militarum Tempestus army what do you think are the best long/medium range anti tank weapons/units? Looking at Forgeworld the Lightning Strike Fighter loaded with Hellstrike Missiles looks like decent long range anti tank.

**Trickstick**

Vendetta used to be a nice choice. It does cost 230 points now, so may be a bit much. MT is pretty lacking in long range AT. Technically, you could take the Marauder Destroyer. The Hellstrike missiles are not single use, so you could fire 8 every turn. Although that seems wrong, and buying/converting the model is a large project. 405 points for 8 hellstrike, 6 autocannons, 2 assault cannons, 2 heavy bolters and a bomb cluster.

**General Hobbs**

gbghg wrote:
So I take a detachment. I take a company commander, a primaris psyker, 3 infantry squads, and 3 Manticores.

I choose the stormtrooper doctrine.

This makes it a Miltarum Tempestus detachment, opening up the MT doctrines

FAQ only applies to the tempestus drop force, it doesn't let you make anything you want into a tempestus detachment. Full entry is below.

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

To clarify, any AM detachment with stormtroopers can take the drop force but that doesn't give the Militarum Tempestus keyword as the codex explicitly blocks you from assigning "Militarum Tempestus" as a regimental keyword. So the detachment is only "Militarum tempestus" as far as the drop force is concerned and is <REGIMENT> in all other regards, which is messy as hell but otherwise clearcut.

The text you quoted supports me. A Militarum Tempestus Detachment.....is an AM Detachment that has the Storm Troopers doctrine.

So I take a AM Detachment and pick Stormtroopers. There is no requirement for it to be filled with Militarum Tempestus units, nor does it say in the FAQ that it HAS to be part of a Drop Force.

BTW the only reason you do this is to save on detachments. My tank force has 1 arty detachment, 1 tank detachment and 1 minimum patrol sized Militarum Tempestus detachment. I'm saving 35 points. There is no other benefit or advantage that I can see.

**generalchaos34**

Trickstick wrote:
Vendetta used to be a nice choice. It does cost 230 points now, so may be a bit much. MT is pretty lacking in long range AT. Technically, you could take the Marauder Destroyer. The Hellstrike missiles are not single use, so you could fire 8 every turn. Although that seems wrong, and buying/converting the model is a large project. 405 points for 8 hellstrike, 6 autocannons, 2 assault cannons, 2 heavy bolters and a bomb cluster.

Sadly the vendetta only hits on 5+ undamaged because its rules are terrible. I think if it had strafing run it would be a little better.

As for the Marauder I think it would be REALLY COOL to run that thing and have it pound your opponent flat while your scions tear apart all of their most important components. Heck, 8 stormstrike missiles stand a decent chance of one shotting even a Knight.

**Trickstick**

generalchaos34 wrote:
Sadly the vendetta only hits on 5+ undamaged because its rules are terrible. I think if it had strafing run it would be a little better.

Oh yeah it's only 4+. I was going to suggest the new "hard to hit whilst hovering" strat, but that's only Valkyries...

Vultures are not that good AT power. The options come down to high price FW flyers, or some sort of ally like a knight, AdMech, Guard, or whatever. I could see an Elysian force being fun, but they are probably terrble rules too.

I find myself wanting to wait for the FW index, as any decision made now could flip when that comes out.

**General Hobbs**

Trickstick wrote:
generalchaos34 wrote:
Sadly the vendetta only hits on 5+ undamaged because its rules are terrible. I think if it had strafing run it would be a little better.

Oh yeah it's only 4+. I was going to suggest the new "hard to hit whilst hovering" strat, but that's only Valkyries...

Vultures are not that good AT power. The options come down to high price FW flyers, or some sort of ally like a knight, AdMech, Guard, or whatever. I could see an Elysian force being fun, but they are probably terrble rules too.

I find myself wanting to wait for the FW index, as any decision made now could flip when that comes out.

The thing about Elysians is that with no models for sale, their rules are sadly destined for junking when they rewrite the Forgeworld book.