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2020/02/11 18:07:48
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
Hey everyone, recently I bought a whole bunch of prebuilt empire models, all on square bases because I thought they would look cool to paint and put in my display case. I play AOS and 40k but have always wanted to get into fantasy (Or 9th age) because I love the rank and file stuff. Luckily, there is a pretty big community of 9th age players near me. Can someone tell me if I have enough to play a standard size game in 9th age (Or legacy fantasy?) and if you think I do, could someone help me put together a list? If I don't have enough, what else should I get? I have....
10 spearmen
10 halberdiers
10 crossbowman
10 handgunners
10 swordsman
10 great swordsman
5 pistoliers
15 Knights (Reiksguard Knights I believe they are called?)
1 Cannon
1 Knight hero
1 Arch lector (Or Warrior Priest)
1 Warrior priest on a horse
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 18:48:11
2020/02/11 18:54:39
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
9th Age has changed squad minimums so you may need to do some proxying; ranged State Troops ("Light Infantry") can be taken in 10-model units but melee State Troops ("Heavy Infantry") are 20 models minimum and Greatswords ("Imperial Guard") are 15 models minimum.
You should be able to get to 2,000pts in 9th Age/1,000pts in old WHFB easily with that, might be able to stretch it to 3,000/1,500 if you give everything upgrades/magic banners/etc. As to building a list/extending the force I don't know Sonnstahl/the Empire that well and I don't know what models you like most, but at a glance I'd suggest bulking out the infantry and getting another artillery piece.
In Classichammer (6th Edition around here, or Warhammer Renaissance), you'll want most of your combat units to be around 20 models, else they'll just be shot and magicked to pieces. You might be able to get a 1000 point list out of what you've got.
However, I can recommend the old Warhammer Fantasy "Warbands" supplement which plays up to 500 points with smaller sized units.
infinite_array wrote: In Classichammer (6th Edition around here, or Warhammer Renaissance), you'll want most of your combat units to be around 20 models, else they'll just be shot and magicked to pieces. You might be able to get a 1000 point list out of what you've got.
However, I can recommend the old Warhammer Fantasy "Warbands" supplement which plays up to 500 points with smaller sized units.
Thanks for that. I've heard about "Warhammer Renaissance" before, does that just use the old rules? Where is the best place I can get the old rulebook and the codex for cheap?
2020/02/11 21:30:42
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
Murrax9 wrote: If I don't have enough, what else should I get? I have....
10 spearmen - Which type?
If the modern type try and convert them. Buy more sets or find bits and convert them to swordsmen from the same kit.
I would get more, more and more. They are chreap and easy to come by. They look like this on the sprue.
10 halberdiers - Older halberdiers are hard to replace. If newer add 10-20 more at least. If you have the newer range of models see if you can have bits to add more halberdiers or swordsmen.
10 crossbowman - You can use these as a detachment.
10 handgunners - Again you can use ten as a detachment, you can also get a lot more cheaply.
10 swordsman - Uses the same kit as spearmen and halberdiers. This set should be used to make halberdiers or swordsmen. Do try and get more, Empire are a horde army.
10 great swordsman - Very old metal greatswordsmen were state troops, later models were elite troops. The 'current' plastic kit is good. If you want greatswordsmen you want thirty.
5 pistoliers - Enough to work with.
15 Knights (Reiksguard Knights I believe they are called?) - That is a good sized unit of knights. Reiksguard had silver armour and red and white plumage, they shield insignia was an iron cross.
1 Cannon - You need about two or three artillery total. 9th age caps you at three.
1 Knight hero - Mounted? You can use him as a captain or as a Knight Commander.
1 Arch lector (Or Warrior Priest) - Warriors priests are good. They need to be in large units as they are force multipliers.
1 Warrior priest on a horse - Good this will boost your knight unit.
Ok. You have a nice strong unit of knights with character support. This is a good start. Your infantry are enough to get started with but need to be in bigger units. Warrior priests, captains and wizards can all boost your mediocre infantry into something nasty.
Where I would start is with:
These are Age of Sigmar Collegiate Battle Wizards. They come with round bases but they are Empire Battle Wizards, all you need is the proper base.
You can make them as you see fit but following the above is generally advised as Empire wizards had a lot of in canon iconography, more exacting than just about any other feature of Warhammer. These are not random wizards, from left to right: Gold, Amethyst, Celestial and Bright. There are also bits for a Light wizard. The set didnt include Grey, Jade or Amber wizards, those lores are good but you can source them later. Four wizards is more thna enough, I would swap the Amethyst for the Light wizard for best synergy with an Empire army, do this and you have four decent wizards from four servicable but very different lores. Use one or two per game.
If you can buy these, Empire Greatswords are a staple and anchor your line. 20 Greatswords is Ok, 30 is better.
After that buy another artillery piece and whatever Empire infantry you can get your hands on. By and large you should have at least two blocks of infantry, plus shooters. Stiffen your melee blocks with character support. You already have good knights for the counterstroke. After this you are well on your way to having a servicable Empire army with built in variety and usable for several editions and at several points levels. I could add others things to this. Flagellants, Demigryphs, are worth having, but can wait. A griffon is a good investment in 9th but not in official WHFB where it cost double the price and was more vulnerable. However getv the meat and potatoes, some infantry, elite infantry and choice of wizard first, they are what you are missing most.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2020/02/11 21:57:11
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
infinite_array wrote: In Classichammer (6th Edition around here, or Warhammer Renaissance), you'll want most of your combat units to be around 20 models, else they'll just be shot and magicked to pieces. You might be able to get a 1000 point list out of what you've got.
However, I can recommend the old Warhammer Fantasy "Warbands" supplement which plays up to 500 points with smaller sized units.
Thanks for that. I've heard about "Warhammer Renaissance" before, does that just use the old rules? Where is the best place I can get the old rulebook and the codex for cheap?
Warhammer Renaissance is a free fanproject that combines different parts of a few editions (mostly the rules of 7th Ed and the magic cards of 4th) to make a balanced, fun set of rules to play in the Warhammer universe. It's quickly approaching a more completed state, as the various factions are mostly getting tweaks at this point and the core rules won't be changing.
Best place to pick up the 6th Edition rulebook and the Empire army book (the one without the red border) is ebay.
Murrax9 wrote: Hey everyone, recently I bought a whole bunch of prebuilt empire models, all on square bases because I thought they would look cool to paint and put in my display case. I play AOS and 40k but have always wanted to get into fantasy (Or 9th age) because I love the rank and file stuff. Luckily, there is a pretty big community of 9th age players near me. Can someone tell me if I have enough to play a standard size game in 9th age (Or legacy fantasy?) and if you think I do, could someone help me put together a list? If I don't have enough, what else should I get? I have....
10 spearmen
10 halberdiers
10 crossbowman
10 handgunners
10 swordsman
10 great swordsman
5 pistoliers
15 Knights (Reiksguard Knights I believe they are called?)
1 Cannon
1 Knight hero
1 Arch lector (Or Warrior Priest)
1 Warrior priest on a horse
As the others have said, you want your melee infantry to be at least in blocks of 20 dudes. One thing that worked for me was to pick the two units I wanted to take, and use the two types I wasn't using as proxies. So if I were to field a unit of spears and a unit of halbardiers, then the swordmen and great swords would be used as filler for the back ranks. It's a fairly easy system to use, as the unit type is just defined by what the front models are, and as casualties are taken, the unit type becomes clearer (casulties are taken from the rear ranks first).
This would give you a start in small/medium games without having to immediately flesh out your units before using them. You can try different combinations this way, while still having actual models (of some kind) in the movement trays.
As for a sample list:
Arch Lector/Warrior Priest on a horse
Warrior priest
Grand Master (knight 'hero')
Battle Standard Bearer (Use one of the unit Banner bearers, such as the greatsword one)
One block of 20 Great Swords (Greatswords front/Swordsmen rear)
Detachment of 10 Halbardiers
Detachment of 10 Crossbows.
One unit of Hand Gunners
One unit of spearmen (To use as a redirector unit)
Unit of 10 knights
Unit of five knights.
Unit of pistoliers.
Cannon.
Put the mounted Priest/Lechtor and Grand Master in the larger knight unit.
Put the Warrior priest and BSB in the Great Sword unit.
2020/02/12 10:22:27
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
In 6th you had the Detachment rules, so that being the case I'd keep the Halberds 10 man as a detachment and bump the Spears and Swordsmen to 20. I can't remember if Greatswords could be detachments or not as I'm away from my book, but if they can, then leave them as 10 man as well.
If the Detachment rule doesn't exist in your chosen edition/game system, then disregard and fill them all up to 20 man.
Your ballistic units are fine as is, but having some more 10 man units wouldn't be a bad thing at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 10:23:29
Detachment rules fit all forms of Empire army from 4th onwards, including 9th Age and 8th.
Building for sixth is a bad idea unless you don't intend to progress from it. 8th needs fewer larger units. You can make a unit for 8th and split it down into detachments or for smaller games, multiple small detachments don't mold together so well, though you could use 'counts as'. Done this way your army will fit any edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 12:15:04
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2020/02/12 12:30:43
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
How would an army built for 6th not work in other editions? I was assured by you and several other people that the unit sizes were the same and that nobody was running whales in 8th anymore.
At any rate, if that's a concern, fill the ALL out to 20 which I said in my previous post and you can split them accordingly.
I was assured by you and several other people that the unit sizes were the same and that nobody was running whales in 8th anymore.
I said nothing of the sort and don't recommend deathstar units. However 30 is not 'whale' sized. 9th also caps cheap infantry at 50 and elite infantry at 30, 8th had no limits and had the massive units. The OP wanted his army primarily for 9th.
Unit sizes of 20-40 fit all editions except 5th, even 6th doesn't suffer with units sizes of 30 for base infantry. Empire units lose models easily and this army has a very large cavalry block. Ironically I saw a lot of very large knight blocks in 5th, because static resolution was important and it was hard to chip wounds off the 1+ save knights. Fifteen knights plus a character gave the optimum 4x4 and was a nasty unit. With no steadfast, little saves and no second rank combat Empire state infantry was underperforming in older editions of WHFB and in 5th it was common to hold the line with cavalry or flagellants.
I would still recommend 40 state troops of a single melee type. Its a decent unit in 9th, passable in 8th and 7th, and can be split down into a unit and detachment for 6th.
Missile infantry need to be in units of 20 in 8th and 9th and 10 in all other editions. This is due to two rank fire. I cant remember if there was two rank fire in 7th, if so 20 is good for that edition also, otherwise 10. You could however make all missile infantry units of ten and use detachment rules for them. Though larger units with command are better in 8th and 9th. 9th caps out at 20 for crossbowmen and handgunners, for 8th you can go larger but its often not worth it as they become magic targets. A unit of 20 is efficient for a low dice short ranged augment, preferably armour negation or accuracy boosts, the firepower itself is reliable.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2020/02/12 15:05:39
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
And also with two rank fire there's nothing stopping a 10 man ballistic unit from ranking in two ranks of 5.
Also with detachments, unless this was changed int he 8th and T9A books, you could stand and shoot the unit charging the parent unit AND countercharge with a melee detachment. So building to that, especially since detachments were capped at half the parent unit's Unit Strength or model count rounding down, would still make a viable list and make good use of models he now owns.
Best way to look at this is via 9th Age, as it has stricter numbers.
Cavalry 5-12 - varies, OP has 15 stick with that but be aware that in 9th the unit will be capped at 12.
Light cavalry 5-10 - recommend 5 (all editions)
Melee infantry 20-50 - recommend 20-24 5th & 6th, 30 7th, 40-50 8th & 9th
Missile infantry 10-20 - recommend 10 5th-7th, 20 8th & 9th, 10 in detachment (all editions)
Elite infantry 10-30- recommend 20 5th-7th, 30 8th & 9th.
As there is no good reason to have a unit larger than the 9th Age unit cap I would use this as a hard limit. Yes in 8th units can get larger, but it tends to be either a big target or broken and unfair depending on number of characters added. This will make a viable army for all editions including 6th.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2020/02/12 17:08:20
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
Murrax9 wrote: Hey everyone, recently I bought a whole bunch of prebuilt empire models, all on square bases because I thought they would look cool to paint and put in my display case. I play AOS and 40k but have always wanted to get into fantasy (Or 9th age) because I love the rank and file stuff. Luckily, there is a pretty big community of 9th age players near me. Can someone tell me if I have enough to play a standard size game in 9th age (Or legacy fantasy?) and if you think I do, could someone help me put together a list? If I don't have enough, what else should I get? I have....
10 spearmen
10 halberdiers
10 crossbowman
10 handgunners
10 swordsman
10 great swordsman
5 pistoliers
15 Knights (Reiksguard Knights I believe they are called?)
1 Cannon
1 Knight hero
1 Arch lector (Or Warrior Priest)
1 Warrior priest on a horse
As the others have said, you want your melee infantry to be at least in blocks of 20 dudes. One thing that worked for me was to pick the two units I wanted to take, and use the two types I wasn't using as proxies. So if I were to field a unit of spears and a unit of halbardiers, then the swordmen and great swords would be used as filler for the back ranks. It's a fairly easy system to use, as the unit type is just defined by what the front models are, and as casualties are taken, the unit type becomes clearer (casulties are taken from the rear ranks first).
This would give you a start in small/medium games without having to immediately flesh out your units before using them. You can try different combinations this way, while still having actual models (of some kind) in the movement trays.
As for a sample list:
Arch Lector/Warrior Priest on a horse
Warrior priest
Grand Master (knight 'hero')
Battle Standard Bearer (Use one of the unit Banner bearers, such as the greatsword one)
One block of 20 Great Swords (Greatswords front/Swordsmen rear)
Detachment of 10 Halbardiers
Detachment of 10 Crossbows.
One unit of Hand Gunners
One unit of spearmen (To use as a redirector unit)
Unit of 10 knights
Unit of five knights.
Unit of pistoliers.
Cannon.
Put the mounted Priest/Lechtor and Grand Master in the larger knight unit.
Put the Warrior priest and BSB in the Great Sword unit.
Thanks for the advice, it sounds like the things I really need is more infantry. Speaking of movement trays, where do people usually buy them? Has anyone dealt with the official old GW movement tray module pack?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 18:49:51
2020/02/12 19:28:17
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
Get laser cut movement trays from a variety of sources. Google search them and find the supplier nearest you.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2020/02/12 20:26:50
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
Murrax9 wrote: Hey everyone, recently I bought a whole bunch of prebuilt empire models, all on square bases because I thought they would look cool to paint and put in my display case. I play AOS and 40k but have always wanted to get into fantasy (Or 9th age) because I love the rank and file stuff. Luckily, there is a pretty big community of 9th age players near me. Can someone tell me if I have enough to play a standard size game in 9th age (Or legacy fantasy?) and if you think I do, could someone help me put together a list? If I don't have enough, what else should I get? I have....
10 spearmen
10 halberdiers
10 crossbowman
10 handgunners
10 swordsman
10 great swordsman
5 pistoliers
15 Knights (Reiksguard Knights I believe they are called?)
1 Cannon
1 Knight hero
1 Arch lector (Or Warrior Priest)
1 Warrior priest on a horse
Everything you have is good but you do want units of 20 at least for most games. You could also just proxy some of the models you aren't using by just putting them in the back ranks to reach this goal. I'd say it looks like a rather strained 2k list or a comfortable 1500 or less list for Warhammer. Depends how competitive your opponents are and what everyone has at their disposal. I've never played 9th Age but I assume it's similar in that you want at least 20 models for melee infantry. Consult the local T9A community if they are the ones you will play with most.
As far as legacy Warhammer Fantasy it seems like 8th edition and 6th edition are the most common communities. I'd pick the edition you could get a game in with and check Amazon and eBay for rulebooks and armybooks. 6th Ed seems to be the least expensive to get into but 8th can be reasonable with some patience and searching. Alternatively if you click the classic hammer link in just tony's sig and search the Warhammer fantasy sections for their pinned posts you'll find a helpful link to help you get started with near any edition.
2020/02/12 22:00:11
Subject: Re:Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
If you play 6th ed, you can have a decent 1500 points list. Add a wizard and bump up to 20 minis the Spearmen and Swordmen, and you can get to 2000 points (with command groups, a few magic items, an Elector Count/Grand Master,...).
It's always nice to have 2-3 blocks of infantry but the smaller units are very viable as detachment. Makes Empire infantry quite decent.
2020/02/13 04:09:18
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
Murrax9 wrote: Hey everyone, recently I bought a whole bunch of prebuilt empire models, all on square bases because I thought they would look cool to paint and put in my display case. I play AOS and 40k but have always wanted to get into fantasy (Or 9th age) because I love the rank and file stuff. Luckily, there is a pretty big community of 9th age players near me. Can someone tell me if I have enough to play a standard size game in 9th age (Or legacy fantasy?) and if you think I do, could someone help me put together a list? If I don't have enough, what else should I get? I have....
10 spearmen
10 halberdiers
10 crossbowman
10 handgunners
10 swordsman
10 great swordsman
5 pistoliers
15 Knights (Reiksguard Knights I believe they are called?)
1 Cannon
1 Knight hero
1 Arch lector (Or Warrior Priest)
1 Warrior priest on a horse
As the others have said, you want your melee infantry to be at least in blocks of 20 dudes. One thing that worked for me was to pick the two units I wanted to take, and use the two types I wasn't using as proxies. So if I were to field a unit of spears and a unit of halbardiers, then the swordmen and great swords would be used as filler for the back ranks. It's a fairly easy system to use, as the unit type is just defined by what the front models are, and as casualties are taken, the unit type becomes clearer (casulties are taken from the rear ranks first).
This would give you a start in small/medium games without having to immediately flesh out your units before using them. You can try different combinations this way, while still having actual models (of some kind) in the movement trays.
As for a sample list:
Arch Lector/Warrior Priest on a horse
Warrior priest
Grand Master (knight 'hero')
Battle Standard Bearer (Use one of the unit Banner bearers, such as the greatsword one)
One block of 20 Great Swords (Greatswords front/Swordsmen rear)
Detachment of 10 Halbardiers
Detachment of 10 Crossbows.
One unit of Hand Gunners
One unit of spearmen (To use as a redirector unit)
Unit of 10 knights
Unit of five knights.
Unit of pistoliers.
Cannon.
Put the mounted Priest/Lechtor and Grand Master in the larger knight unit.
Put the Warrior priest and BSB in the Great Sword unit.
Thanks for the advice, it sounds like the things I really need is more infantry. Speaking of movement trays, where do people usually buy them? Has anyone dealt with the official old GW movement tray module pack?
So be honest, I haven't bought movement trays since well before GW took WFB out behind the shed. But some of the other suggestions were a good way to find some.
I'd also look at adding a wizard to your force, and if you like cavalry, they can work very well, with your infantry working as an anvil for them.
2020/02/14 09:37:34
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
You can still find some movement trays around if you look, honestly. I'm personally sitting on enough for 4 armies with a pack and a half of those modular movement tray kits myself. One quick glance at eBay shows many affordable auctions for movement trays.
A piece of thin wood purchased at a hobby store and some left over sprues and paint can't allow you to make pretty decent movement trays to your liking. Or just search the internet there are plenty of premade options as well. You can also be super cheap and use cardboard. back when I first started playing I made some movement trays with cardboard that looked good enough and helped me manage my skaven.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/14 18:27:52
2020/02/15 17:05:42
Subject: Do I have enough to play a standard size game? (Empire)
As I use magnets on a lot of my bases, I use sheet metal and use tin snips to cut out what I want to use. A little filing off of the rough edges and some mallet work, and you are done.
