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Primaris are “made” right I.e. clones. Although separate groups of clones cos they are made using the dene seed of each primarch.

My simple question is - do they all look the same?

From my understanding they are made like normal space marines, ie from youths, just with a more thorough implant process.

Existing marines can be upgraded to primaris by adding platform boots (+1w, taller) and longer barrels to their bolters (+range).

Correct Primaris are Marines+1, they are not clones. The Dark Imperium and Plague Wars novels have some POV Primaris characters recalling their experience of implantation. One of the Primaris Space Wolves is disappointed to be assigned to a newly founded Chapter rather than going home to Fenris.

Yup.

The original Primaris, those unveiled by Cawl at the appointed hour were harvested from the Legions - including, ostensibly, now Traitor Legions. Other subjects were added over time, as and when needed.

But I don't recall seeing any mention of them being clones at any point?

Yes, Cloning does occur in 40k. Many Servitors are Vat-Grown, as are some Goliaths in Necromunda. But curiously, I don't recall any Space Marine Chapter using clones as recruits.

Other than possible tainted association with Fabius Bile, I can only assume that's more through convention/tradition than actual, solid reasons. After all, the selection process for would-be Astartes is rigorous to the point of lethality. Only the strongest of mind, body, will and genetics make the cut, and even fewer survive the process.

So one would think that cloning such a prospective recruit would be of great appeal. Yet we just do not see it happening, at least, not out in the open. And I don't think it's linked to what happened with the Raven Guard post-Istvaan. That method doesn't appear to be cloning, just a very rapid implantation and maturing method - which if memory serves only failed because it was purposefully corrupted.

Can anyone else think of any background, old or new, which might explain why the Chapters eschew a seemingly fairly common technology?

I thought cloning was an outlawed thing like AI? The only places that do it are super shady worlds like Krieg.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Can anyone else think of any background, old or new, which might explain why the Chapters eschew a seemingly fairly common technology?

Its considered an affront to the purity of the human form as a whole.

Not so far as I can tell.

I mean, it may be looked down upon by nobles and that, but I don't recall it being necessary frowned upon or banned?

Widespread use is almost certainly limited because of the amount of tech and know-wots involved. Not every planet or system is all that industrial, after all.

But if anyone would have it, or at least reliable access to it, you'd think it'd be a Space Marine Chapter? Now Chapter to Chapter I do get it. Space Woofs really like the whole Saga and personal honour, so they have cultural reasons to not partake. But many other Chapters seemingly don't have a clear reason to frown upon it?

I mean, consider the Blood Angels. Pre-whoops-Nids, Baal was incredibly lethal and mutating. This meant oddities in candidates, further limiting potential recruits. So one could argue (again, culture aside) that Cloning would appeal most?

It'd also prevent any given strike force, company or what have you needing to retreat to a central location to take on new recruits. Just have a bank of 'ready to bake' clones in storage, and bob's your Emperor in case of losses?

Hmmmm.

The Imperium does not approach things from a purely rational, efficient, or scientific perspective. Remember it is a theocracy and religious/spiritual elements factor into its ideology and decision making.

The trials Chapters put candidates through are more than just physical trials but trials of their spirit (and by that I don't mean something that can be measured on psychological tests). Remember this is an Imperium that views enduring pain and suffering to be spiritually uplifting or purifying.

The physical aspects of the candidates are clearly only part of the story. For example, the Blood Angels recruit from essentially the starved nomadic feral children of an irradiated toxic wasteland, who by all rights should make for horrible soldiers given their likely poor state of health. Yet somehow the Marine creation process can transform these children into physically robust and healthy Marines, so clearly it isn't just purely the physical attributes that are being tested. But why even take the effort to reshape these children? I would say it is that "will to live" and keep on going no matter what that they look for, and which the Imperium views as more likely to occur in natural born children from disadvantaged environments such as death worlds and the toxic slums of an underhive.

How reliable is the cloning technology in the Imperium? No one is going to care if a servitor or some Krieg Cannon Fodder™ is mildly defective, but marines need to be near perfect.

Cloning doesn't seem common in the Imperium, but vat grown individuals are. I don't know the difference, but my guess is that vat grown is an artificial conception whereas cloning is a direct copy. (i.e. you can vatgrow someone from the DNA of Yarrick, but they won't be Yarrick, instead they would be the Son/Daughter of Yarrick).

The Mars born Primaris Marines are all from Vat-Grown stock. As far as I can tell.

We have yet to get a point of view of a Mars Primarus versus the ones from the Chapter Worlds.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
The Mars born Primaris Marines are all from Vat-Grown stock. As far as I can tell.

We have yet to get a point of view of a Mars Primarus versus the ones from the Chapter Worlds.

I don't get where people got this idea that the original Primaris were vat-grown. Cawl had a whole program involving testing and collecting children during the later half of the Scouring. They were all regular astartes recruit age, either from the chapter homeworlds or their protectorates. None of them were vat-grown, none of them were previously marines in the legions. Though there is Alpha Primus. We don't really know what his story is.

As for homeworld-born Primaris, known as the Indoctrinated, there are essentially no cultural differences between them and a Firstborn from their homeworld. The Emperor's Spears portray this quite nicely.

Sources are Dark Imperium, Plague War, and The Great Work.

jareddm wrote:

I don't get where people got this idea that the original Primaris were vat-grown. Cawl had a whole program involving testing and collecting children during the later half of the Scouring. They were all regular astartes recruit age, either from the chapter homeworlds or their protectorates. None of them were vat-grown, none of them were previously marines in the legions. Though there is Alpha Primus. We don't really know what his story is.

As for homeworld-born Primaris, known as the Indoctrinated, there are essentially no cultural differences between them and a Firstborn from their homeworld. The Emperor's Spears portray this quite nicely.

Sources are Dark Imperium, Plague War, and The Great Work.

Cawl couldn't fill the ranks of the Primaris fully, so he supplemented them with Mars vatgrown citizens. Source Plague War. Guiliman has a Mars Primaris guard a living saint because they are less likely to be empathetic to human emotion.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Cloning doesn't seem common in the Imperium, but vat grown individuals are. I don't know the difference, but my guess is that vat grown is an artificial conception whereas cloning is a direct copy. (i.e. you can vatgrow someone from the DNA of Yarrick, but they won't be Yarrick, instead they would be the Son/Daughter of Yarrick).

The Mars born Primaris Marines are all from Vat-Grown stock. As far as I can tell.

We have yet to get a point of view of a Mars Primarus versus the ones from the Chapter Worlds.

Cloned tissue is also prone to cancer according to some characters in Black Legion.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

jareddm wrote:

I don't get where people got this idea that the original Primaris were vat-grown. Cawl had a whole program involving testing and collecting children during the later half of the Scouring. They were all regular astartes recruit age, either from the chapter homeworlds or their protectorates. None of them were vat-grown, none of them were previously marines in the legions. Though there is Alpha Primus. We don't really know what his story is.

As for homeworld-born Primaris, known as the Indoctrinated, there are essentially no cultural differences between them and a Firstborn from their homeworld. The Emperor's Spears portray this quite nicely.

Sources are Dark Imperium, Plague War, and The Great Work.

Cawl couldn't fill the ranks of the Primaris fully, so he supplemented them with Mars vatgrown citizens. Source Plague War. Guiliman has a Mars Primaris guard a living saint because they are less likely to be empathetic to human emotion.

no he has Primaris guard a living saint because given Primaris Marines at the time where all people grabbed from the great crusade era and experimented on before being shoved in stasis they where the least likely to fall for the saints "religious Grox Dung".

all those marines in tubes you saw? where stasis tubes not cloning tubes.

jareddm wrote:

I don't get where people got this idea that the original Primaris were vat-grown.

The original Primaris trailer from years ago showed a Primaris Marine in some sort of a stasis chamber. A lot of people misunderstood it to mean that the Primaris are vat-grown, and have not bothered to read any lore ever since and thus continue to troll the forums with their ignorance.

BrianDavion wrote:

no he has Primaris guard a living saint because given Primaris Marines at the time where all people grabbed from the great crusade era and experimented on before being shoved in stasis they where the least likely to fall for the saints "religious Grox Dung".

all those marines in tubes you saw? where stasis tubes not cloning tubes.

Crimson wrote:

jareddm wrote:

I don't get where people got this idea that the original Primaris were vat-grown.

The original Primaris trailer from years ago showed a Primaris Marine in some sort of a stasis chamber. A lot of people misunderstood it to mean that the Primaris are vat-grown, and have not bothered to read any lore ever since and thus continue to troll the forums with their ignorance.

Chapter 17 of Plague War, Guiliman has chosen Primaris Marines “All Mars Born, none with ties to Ultramar” to guard the living saint because “they will not hesitate to do what must be done”. I have the audiobook and pulled it up. Maybe not vat born, but it’s easy to assume all Mars citizens are.

I doubt all Martians are vat born, it's a lot more efficant to have a woman carry the baby, the woman can work a job during most of the time during the pregnancy, whereas "iron wombs" would just take up space.

As said above, there's been no evidence of Primaris Marines being cloned.

Even the Martian Primaris, the ones we see in the stasis pods in the cinematic introduction of the Primaris Marines, are just regular Space Marine aspirants, taken during the 31st millenium, been upgraded into Primaris at some point, and kept in stasis pods, not vat-growing ones.

When Guilliman makes his remark about how the Martian Primaris are more likely to "do what needs to be done", I believe he's referring to the fact that they come from a less religious background, and they're far more hypno-indoctrinated than later generations of Astartes. In fact, those first Primaris Marines, the ones in those stasis pods, are incredibly tactically inflexible. Unlike the other generations of Primaris, who have been permitted to be cycled through the various Primaris battlefield roles, the first Primaris generation were only ever taught in one battlefield role.
This means that Brother Hypotheticus, a recruit from Macragge in M31 and put in stasis, will only be trained to fight as a Hellblaster, for example, whereas Brother Examplus, a recruit from M41 and given Primaris treatment, will be expected to be capable of fulfilling the whole range of Primaris role, from Hellblaster to Infiltrator to Aggressor.

Basically, these Martian Primaris are less likely to be hesitate when fulfilling a potential execution order, because they lack an emotional connection to the situation.

Its not the assumption that they are all cloned, but that some of them are likely taken from Vat Grown stock of Humans. i.e. they didn't clone Space Marines, they cloned humans and then when they reached maturity turned them into Space Marines (after passing the necessary tests, of course).

Perhaps, but I don't think I've seen any definitive proof, or that this is a feature exclusive to Martian Primaris.

Basically, it's not to say that it's *impossible*, but that I've simply not seen it.

basicly there's no evidance for it so it seems silly to assume they're vat grown. as I said earleir growth vats are not a terriably efficant way to create humans. not everyone on Mars is highly cyberneticized

BrianDavion wrote:
basicly there's no evidance for it so it seems silly to assume they're vat grown.

Pretty much, yeah. That's not to say they couldn't be, or that if you wanted your Primaris Marines (or any Marines really) to be vat-born, they could be, but as far as I'm aware, we don't have an evidence to support it.

 Tiennos wrote:
How reliable is the cloning technology in the Imperium? No one is going to care if a servitor or some Krieg Cannon Fodder™ is mildly defective, but marines need to be near perfect.

It's not 100% reliable - one of the characters in the Gods of Mars trilogy is a clone, but somehow switched gender during the cloning process. Also there's a couple of short stories and fluff articles about how using clones for Marines is a very bad idea.